Anti-Strangite writings by LDS apologists

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Tom
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Anti-Strangite writings by LDS apologists

Post by Tom »

In his classic 1981 book Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses, Richard Lloyd Anderson writes:
A main safeguard exists for testing claims that a witness modified his testimony—be sure that all statements come from the witness himself.
Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses, 152.

Anderson's safeguard provides an interesting measuring stick for reviewing some anti-Strangite writings by LDS apologists.

In an Interpreter article published in December 2017 titled "The Book of Mormon Witnesses and Their Challenge to Secularism," Daniel Peterson compares the Book of Mormon witnesses to the witnesses to James Strang's two sets of plates, arguing that "the two sets of witnesses and their experiences were very different." Dismissing Strang's plates as "almost certainly forgeries," Peterson asserts that "[o]ne source reports that most of the four witnesses to the Rajah Manchou plates ultimately repudiated their testimonies" (xx). Peterson does not identify the source beyond noting that his discussion was drawn from Milo M. Quaife, The Kingdom of Saint James: A Narrative of the Mormons (New York: Oxford University Press, 1930) and Roger Van Noord, The King of Beaver Island (Champaign/Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1988) (see xix, n.26). (In a footnote, Quaife's biography identified the names of the four witnesses to the Rajah Manchou plates before baldly asserting: "Like the witnesses to Joseph Smith's plates, most of these [witnesses] later apostatized and repudiated Strang" (Kingdom of Saint James, 17).)

Peterson made the identical claim regarding the four witnesses to the Rajah Manchou plates in a 2011 Deseret News column, "Defending the Faith: The story behind James Strang and his sect." A FairMormon page quotes passages from the same column, including the sentence in question.

Note that in a January 2006 message board post (quoted here), Peterson commented on the source, admitting that "the credibility of this source is suspect, since it also asserts that the Book of Mormon witnesses repudiated their testimonies, which is demonstrably false." In an August 2006 FairMormon conference address, however, Peterson did not repeat this comment. Instead, he stated: "One not altogether reliable source reports that most of the four witnesses to the Rajah Manchou plates ultimately repudiated their testimonies" (6, emphasis added).

J. Runnells has commented as follows on Peterson's 2011 claim regarding the four witnesses:
Daniel C. Peterson’s [2011 Deseret News] article states, "One source reports that most of the four witnesses to the Rajah Manchou plates ultimately repudiated their testimonies." What FAIR and Peterson fail to tell their readers about this source is that this source also asserts that the Book of Mormon witnesses likewise repudiated their testimonies of the Book of Mormon. Apparently, however, this is not a problem to these Mormon apologists since the “good” portions of this source work nicely with their agenda of “discrediting” the Strangite witnesses.

LDS apologists would immediately cry foul and demand evidence and sources to back up the above claims. Why then is FAIR operating under a completely different standard than what would be expected – even demanded – if the table was turned around?

Further, LDS apologists would not accept any evidence other than first accounts and affidavits/interviews from the witness himself making the claim. Hearsay (indirect evidence of someone claiming that someone said) would be dismissed and discarded in light of what is at stake.

Peterson's article also states (xx):
One of the witnesses to the “Plates of Laban,” Samuel P. Bacon, eventually denied the inspiration of Strang’s movement and denounced it as mere “human invention.” Another, Samuel Graham, later claimed that he had actually assisted Strang in the creation of the plates.

Again, Peterson does not provide a source beyond general attributions to the biographies by Quaife and Van Noord.

J. Runnells has previously questioned the source of Peterson's claim regarding Bacon. Van Noord's biography of Strang notes that Warren Post, who presented a resolution accusing Bacon and another Strangite church leader of apostasy, "later wrote that Bacon had 'denied the work being done was the inspiration of God' and had called it 'human invention'" (King of Beaver Island, 219). Would R.L. Anderson accept this as credible evidence that a witness modified his testimony?

What is the source of Peterson's assertion that Graham later claimed that he had helped Strang create the Plates of Laban? Again, he does not cite a specific source. However, the FairMormon site may provide a clue. It quotes from a letter written by Chauncy Loomis to Joseph Smith III dated 10 November 1888. FairMormon introduces an excerpt from Loomis' letter as follows:
Chauncy Loomis, in a letter to Joseph Smith III dated 10 Nov. 1888 and published in the Saint's Herald, talked of a conversation that he had with George Adams. Adams described how Strang had asked him to dress in a long white robe and use phosphorous to impersonate an angel. Adams also reported that Samuel Graham talked about how he and Strang fabricated the Plates of Laban. Loomis reported that Samuel Bacon discovered fragments of the plates hidden in the ceiling of Strang's house, and then left the Strangite Church.

The letter stated, in part (719):
I shall now make some statements in regard to others who were the chief men of the kingdom. Bro. Samuel Graham, I think, president of the Twelve, declared that he and Strang made those plates that Strang claimed to translate the Book of the Law from. But they in the first place prepared the plates and coated them with beeswax and then formed the letters and cut them in with a pen knife and then exhibited them to the rest of the Twelve. The facts were Graham apostatized and left the island.

As indicated, the FairMormon page states: "Adams also reported that Samuel Graham talked about how he and Strang fabricated the Plates of Laban." However, it isn't clear from the letter itself that Loomis' report regarding Graham's declaration was based on a conversation with Adams. In any case, the declaration didn't come from Graham himself. To repeat R.L. Anderson's words:
A main safeguard exists for testing claims that a witness modified his testimony—be sure that all statements come from the witness himself.

A final note: Peterson's article reports Quaife's evaluation of Strang (xx-xxi):
“We can hardly escape the conclusion,” writes Quaife, “that Strang knowingly fabricated and planted them for the purpose of duping his credulous followers”; and, accordingly, that “Strang’s prophetic career was a false and impudent imposture."

For the record, here is the fuller context of Quaife's words:
It is quite conceivable that Strang's angelic visitations may had only a subjective existence in the brain of the man who reported them. But the metallic plates possessed a very material objective reality; and we can hardly escape the conclusion either that Strang knowingly fabricated and "planted" them for the purpose of duping his credulous followers, or that they were what they purport to have been, ancient records divinely preserved, in the discovery and translation of which Strang was divinely guided. If the former alternative be accepted, it follows that Strang's prophetic career was a false and impudent imposture; if the latter be the true one, we are confronted by the sad fact that of all the people now on earth only a few score at the most have comprehended it.
Kingdom of Saint James, 17-18.
“A scholar said he could not read the Book of Mormon, so we shouldn’t be shocked that scholars say the papyri don’t translate and/or relate to the Book of Abraham. Doesn’t change anything. It’s ancient and historical.” ~ Hanna Seariac

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Fence Sitter
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Re: Anti-Strangite writings by LDS apologists

Post by Fence Sitter »

Very interesting Tom.

I had always been thought that the Strangite witnesses had repudiated their testimonies.

As Paul Harvey always used to say:

"And now you know the rest of the story".
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."

Tom
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Re: Anti-Strangite writings by LDS apologists

Post by Tom »

An additional note: Peterson's 2006 message board post provided context to Quaife's comments on Strang:
If we are unwilling to accept The Book of the Law of the Lord as authentically divine, [Quaife] says, “we can hardly escape the conclusion . . . that Strang knowingly fabricated and ‘planted’ them for the purpose of duping his credulous followers” and, accordingly, that “Strang’s prophetic career was a false and impudent imposture."
(emphasis added). His 2006 FairMormon address featured the same sentence (7). For some reason, Peterson chose not to include the opening phrase in his 2011 Deseret News column and his recent Interpreter article.
“A scholar said he could not read the Book of Mormon, so we shouldn’t be shocked that scholars say the papyri don’t translate and/or relate to the Book of Abraham. Doesn’t change anything. It’s ancient and historical.” ~ Hanna Seariac

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Re: Anti-Strangite writings by LDS apologists

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Uther
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Re: Anti-Strangite writings by LDS apologists

Post by Uther »

Daniel Peterson seems to think that "faith" = the ability to manipulate weak evidence to support a preconcieved notion. The only thing that keeps his mind from imploding in shame must be his pride and inability to admit an erronous position.
About Joseph Smith.. How do you think his persona was influenced by being the storyteller since childhood? Mastering the art of going pale, changing his voice, and mesmerizing his audience.. How do you think he was influenced by keeping secrets and lying for his wife and the church members for decades?

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Re: Anti-Strangite writings by LDS apologists

Post by MsJack »

Tom wrote:For the record, here is the fuller context of Quaife's words:
It is quite conceivable that Strang's angelic visitations may had only a subjective existence in the brain of the man who reported them. But the metallic plates possessed a very material objective reality; and we can hardly escape the conclusion either that Strang knowingly fabricated and "planted" them for the purpose of duping his credulous followers, or that they were what they purport to have been, ancient records divinely preserved, in the discovery and translation of which Strang was divinely guided. If the former alternative be accepted, it follows that Strang's prophetic career was a false and impudent imposture; if the latter be the true one, we are confronted by the sad fact that of all the people now on earth only a few score at the most have comprehended it.
Kingdom of Saint James, 17-18.

Interesting. It turns out that Loyd Ericson's "misquoting the Interpreter" prank was just a satire of how apologists actually misquote their sources.
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Kevin Graham
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Re: Anti-Strangite writings by LDS apologists

Post by Kevin Graham »

MsJack wrote:Interesting. It turns out that Loyd Ericson's "misquoting the Interpreter" prank was just a satire of how apologists actually misquote their sources.


LOL. The great thing about Mormonism is that anyone can be an expert in anything, regardless of background.

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deacon blues
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Re: Anti-Strangite writings by LDS apologists

Post by deacon blues »

Uther wrote:Daniel Peterson seems to think that "faith" = the ability to manipulate weak evidence to support a preconcieved notion. The only thing that keeps his mind from imploding in shame must be his pride and inability to admit an erronous position.


I think that is a very interesting definition of faith. Do you mind if I use it? Should I attribute it to "Uther" or somebody else?

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Re: Anti-Strangite writings by LDS apologists

Post by deacon blues »

Uther wrote:Daniel Peterson seems to think that "faith" = the ability to manipulate weak evidence to support a preconcieved notion. The only thing that keeps his mind from imploding in shame must be his pride and inability to admit an erronous position.


I think that is a very interesting definition of faith. It is concise and describes accurately how the word is often used. I expect many Catholics and Mormons would view the others faith in something like this manner. Do you mind if I use it? Should I attribute it to "Uther" or somebody else?

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Re: Anti-Strangite writings by LDS apologists

Post by Fence Sitter »

deacon blues wrote:
Uther wrote:Daniel Peterson seems to think that "faith" = the ability to manipulate weak evidence to support a preconcieved notion. The only thing that keeps his mind from imploding in shame must be his pride and inability to admit an erronous position.


I think that is a very interesting definition of faith. It is concise and describes accurately how the word is often used. I expect many Catholics and Mormons would view the others faith in something like this manner. Do you mind if I use it? Should I attribute it to "Uther" or somebody else?



I think I would drop the word "weak" out of it. I think faith also includes the ability to manipulate strong evidence or even ignore the lack of evidence.

So it would be:

"Faith is the ability to manipulate evidence to support a preconceived notion."
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."

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Re: Anti-Strangite writings by LDS apologists

Post by Stem »

MsJack wrote:Interesting. It turns out that Loyd Ericson's "misquoting the Interpreter" prank was just a satire of how apologists actually misquote their sources.


:lol:

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Re: Anti-Strangite writings by LDS apologists

Post by Kishkumen »

I’m still struggling to get past that December 2017 article title. Challenge to secularism? Really?

What they should have written is:

“Uneducated farmers who believe in treasure ghosts challenge science.”
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist

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