Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

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Mittens
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Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

Post by Mittens »

Dr. Grant Palmer (Ph.D., BYU - American History), a 34-year veteran of the Mormon Church's official Church Education System has abandoned his former faith in Joseph Smith, the LDS Church and the Mormon religion as a result of his study into the true origins of his former religion. His most notable work is a book entitled, "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins", in which Dr. Palmer traces the sources Joseph Smith used to write the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham, etc.

Dr. Palmer has also produced a variety of articles on the same topics. One of the items I found interesting recently come from this LINK. In the article entitled, "Has an actual Book of Mormon location been found - Nahom?" Dr. Palmer points out some interesting linguistic problems in the Book of Mormon. The fact is, the Book of Mormon's unique transliterated terms and place-names have no valid etymology - no history of use in any known language.

For example, in the Book of Mormon "Irreantum" = "many waters" (1 Ne. 17:5), "Rabbanah" = "powerful or great king" (Alma 18:13), "Rameumptom" = "the holy stand" (Alma 31:21), "Liahona" = "a compass" (Alma 37:38), "deseret" = "a honey bee" (Ether 2:3), "Ripliancum" = "large, or to exceed all" (Ether 15:8). Dr. Palmer points out that these words have no Old World roots.

The Book of Mormon peoples were supposedly Hebrews; but these words certainly are not Hebrew terms. These people supposedly wrote the Book of Mormon in "Reformed Egyptian"; but none of these place names are Egyptian either. The Book of Mormon peoples were supposedly the ancestors of the American Indians; but none of these terms or place names are ever used in any Native American language to mean what the Book of Mormon says they mean, if they appear at all.

In short there appears to be no connection whatsoever between these supposedly Hebrew-Egyptian-Native American terms and the languages spoken by actual people who lived in the real world. They appear to be imaginary words which comports perfectly with the explanation that the Book of Mormon is an imaginary fantasy penned by lying con artists.

Dr. Palmer asks, "Do they have further derivatives in New World usage? One would expect the they should have, but nothing to support this expectation has been forthcoming. Instead, LDS scholars provide separate theories for each Book of Mormon place name. In contrast, when studying the Bible, the place names are derived from Hebrew or a local dialect. Again we see that the Book of Mormon cannot stand up to professional linguistic analysis."

The problem here is obvious. Mormons face the challenge of simply showing us that the place names listed above were ever used by REAL people to refer to specific places. In fact, it would be helpful to the Mormon cause if they could simply tell us WHERE these places actually ARE. At this point in time, despite countless tens of thousands of man-hours of research, no one has ever been able to do even that. And once someone can actually show us WHERE these places are, all they need to do is show us that anyone who has ever lived actually used the above proper names to refer to these locations. Then we can proceed on to the titles and terms for objects. Specifically, Mormons should be able to SHOW US that Jewish American Indians, writing in an Egyptian dialect ever used the following words to mean what the Book of Mormon says they mean. Mormons, please show us some reason to think that anyone in ancient America...


•Used the word "Irreantum" to refer to "many waters" (1 Ne. 17:5)
•Used the word "Rabbanah" to refer to "powerful or great king" (Alma 18:13)
•Used the word "Rameumptom" to refer to "the holy stand" (Alma 31:21)
•Used the word "Liahona" to mean "a compass" (Alma 37:38)
•Used the word "deseret" in reference to "a honey bee" (Ether 2:3)
•Used the word "Ripliancum" to mean "large, or to exceed all" (Ether 15:8)


If you cannot meet this challenge, the best explanation for your failure will remain that the Book of Mormon is a fantasy - a LIE told in the name of The Lord Jesus Christ. After all, fantasy names belong in fantasy books. But the Word of God should not be a fantasy. If simple honesty is any part of the "fruit" that Mormons claim as evidence of the truth of their religion, the Mormon failure to meet this challenge should bother those Mormons who take only a few moments to allow themselves to actually THINK about this problem.
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Re: Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

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Re: Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

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Mittens wrote:Dr. Grant Palmer (Ph.D., BYU - American History), a 34-year veteran of the Mormon Church's official Church Education System has abandoned his former faith in Joseph Smith, the LDS Church and the Mormon religion as a result of his study into the true origins of his former religion. His most notable work is a book entitled, "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins", in which Dr. Palmer traces the sources Joseph Smith used to write the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham, etc.

Dr. Palmer has also produced a variety of articles on the same topics. One of the items I found interesting recently come from this LINK. In the article entitled, "Has an actual Book of Mormon location been found - Nahom?" Dr. Palmer points out some interesting linguistic problems in the Book of Mormon. The fact is, the Book of Mormon's unique transliterated terms and place-names have no valid etymology - no history of use in any known language.

For example, in the Book of Mormon "Irreantum" = "many waters" (1 Ne. 17:5), "Rabbanah" = "powerful or great king" (Alma 18:13), "Rameumptom" = "the holy stand" (Alma 31:21), "Liahona" = "a compass" (Alma 37:38), "deseret" = "a honey bee" (Ether 2:3), "Ripliancum" = "large, or to exceed all" (Ether 15:8). Dr. Palmer points out that these words have no Old World roots.

The Book of Mormon peoples were supposedly Hebrews; but these words certainly are not Hebrew terms. These people supposedly wrote the Book of Mormon in "Reformed Egyptian"; but none of these place names are Egyptian either. The Book of Mormon peoples were supposedly the ancestors of the American Indians; but none of these terms or place names are ever used in any Native American language to mean what the Book of Mormon says they mean, if they appear at all.

In short there appears to be no connection whatsoever between these supposedly Hebrew-Egyptian-Native American terms and the languages spoken by actual people who lived in the real world. They appear to be imaginary words which comports perfectly with the explanation that the Book of Mormon is an imaginary fantasy penned by lying con artists.

Dr. Palmer asks, "Do they have further derivatives in New World usage? One would expect the they should have, but nothing to support this expectation has been forthcoming. Instead, LDS scholars provide separate theories for each Book of Mormon place name. In contrast, when studying the Bible, the place names are derived from Hebrew or a local dialect. Again we see that the Book of Mormon cannot stand up to professional linguistic analysis."

The problem here is obvious. Mormons face the challenge of simply showing us that the place names listed above were ever used by REAL people to refer to specific places. In fact, it would be helpful to the Mormon cause if they could simply tell us WHERE these places actually ARE. At this point in time, despite countless tens of thousands of man-hours of research, no one has ever been able to do even that. And once someone can actually show us WHERE these places are, all they need to do is show us that anyone who has ever lived actually used the above proper names to refer to these locations. Then we can proceed on to the titles and terms for objects. Specifically, Mormons should be able to SHOW US that Jewish American Indians, writing in an Egyptian dialect ever used the following words to mean what the Book of Mormon says they mean. Mormons, please show us some reason to think that anyone in ancient America...


•Used the word "Irreantum" to refer to "many waters" (1 Ne. 17:5)
•Used the word "Rabbanah" to refer to "powerful or great king" (Alma 18:13)
•Used the word "Rameumptom" to refer to "the holy stand" (Alma 31:21)
•Used the word "Liahona" to mean "a compass" (Alma 37:38)
•Used the word "deseret" in reference to "a honey bee" (Ether 2:3)
•Used the word "Ripliancum" to mean "large, or to exceed all" (Ether 15:8)


If you cannot meet this challenge, the best explanation for your failure will remain that the Book of Mormon is a fantasy - a LIE told in the name of The Lord Jesus Christ. After all, fantasy names belong in fantasy books. But the Word of God should not be a fantasy. If simple honesty is any part of the "fruit" that Mormons claim as evidence of the truth of their religion, the Mormon failure to meet this challenge should bother those Mormons who take only a few moments to allow themselves to actually THINK about this problem.



Mittens,

I totally agree, the Book of Mormon is a book of fantasy. Now why don't you spend some time putting the bible under the same microscope and see if you don't find another book of fantasy.
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Re: Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

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son of Ishmael wrote:Mittens,

I totally agree, the Book of Mormon is a book of fantasy. Now why don't you spend some time putting the bible under the same microscope and see if you don't find another book of fantasy.

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Re: Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

Post by son of Ishmael »

The Erotic Apologist wrote:
son of Ishmael wrote:Mittens,

I totally agree, the Book of Mormon is a book of fantasy. Now why don't you spend some time putting the bible under the same microscope and see if you don't find another book of fantasy.

Matthew 7:3



Is that scripture for my benefit or for Mitten's?
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. - The Dude

Don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk - Tom Waits

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Re: Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

Post by The Erotic Apologist »

Sorry--definitely for Mittens' benefit. :smile:
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Re: Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

Post by moksha »

Irreantum sounds either Latin or its precursor, Proto-French.

Sentence usage: Irreatum Urantia interuptus, and that's no erratum.

Hope that helps.
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Re: Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

Post by ludwigm »

moksha wrote:Irreantum sounds either Latin or its precursor, Proto-French.

Sentence usage: Irreatum Urantia interuptus, and that's no erratum.

Hope that helps.

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Re: Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

Post by subgenius »

Yet another post in Mittens' parade of nonsense...and at some point, without a doubt, we will see a YouTube link for a clip from this year's Gospel screaming awards.

FYI
Other words with no etymological roots...

dog
jaw
askance
tantrum
conundrum
bad
big
donkey
kick
slum
log
dodge
fuss
prod
hunch
freak
bludgeon
slang
puzzle
surf
pour
slouch
bash
gadget
blimp
raunchy
scam
nifty
zit
clobber
gimmick
jazz

and so on...and these are just for English....just imagine how many texts we must consider nefarious because they use these words....geez.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LodwnmfV ... re=related
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Re: Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

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Mittens wrote:Dr. Grant Palmer (Ph.D., BYU - American History), a 34-year veteran of the Mormon Church's official Church Education System has abandoned his former faith in Joseph Smith, the LDS Church and the Mormon religion as a result of his study into the true origins of his former religion. His most notable work is a book entitled, "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins", in which Dr. Palmer traces the sources Joseph Smith used to write the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham, etc.

Dr. Palmer has also produced a variety of articles on the same topics. One of the items I found interesting recently come from this LINK. In the article entitled, "Has an actual Book of Mormon location been found - Nahom?" Dr. Palmer points out some interesting linguistic problems in the Book of Mormon. The fact is, the Book of Mormon's unique transliterated terms and place-names have no valid etymology - no history of use in any known language.

For example, in the Book of Mormon "Irreantum" = "many waters" (1 Ne. 17:5), "Rabbanah" = "powerful or great king" (Alma 18:13), "Rameumptom" = "the holy stand" (Alma 31:21), "Liahona" = "a compass" (Alma 37:38), "deseret" = "a honey bee" (Ether 2:3), "Ripliancum" = "large, or to exceed all" (Ether 15:8). Dr. Palmer points out that these words have no Old World roots.

The Book of Mormon peoples were supposedly Hebrews; but these words certainly are not Hebrew terms. These people supposedly wrote the Book of Mormon in "Reformed Egyptian"; but none of these place names are Egyptian either. The Book of Mormon peoples were supposedly the ancestors of the American Indians; but none of these terms or place names are ever used in any Native American language to mean what the Book of Mormon says they mean, if they appear at all.

In short there appears to be no connection whatsoever between these supposedly Hebrew-Egyptian-Native American terms and the languages spoken by actual people who lived in the real world. They appear to be imaginary words which comports perfectly with the explanation that the Book of Mormon is an imaginary fantasy penned by lying con artists.

Dr. Palmer asks, "Do they have further derivatives in New World usage? One would expect the they should have, but nothing to support this expectation has been forthcoming. Instead, LDS scholars provide separate theories for each Book of Mormon place name. In contrast, when studying the Bible, the place names are derived from Hebrew or a local dialect. Again we see that the Book of Mormon cannot stand up to professional linguistic analysis."

The problem here is obvious. Mormons face the challenge of simply showing us that the place names listed above were ever used by REAL people to refer to specific places. In fact, it would be helpful to the Mormon cause if they could simply tell us WHERE these places actually ARE. At this point in time, despite countless tens of thousands of man-hours of research, no one has ever been able to do even that. And once someone can actually show us WHERE these places are, all they need to do is show us that anyone who has ever lived actually used the above proper names to refer to these locations. Then we can proceed on to the titles and terms for objects. Specifically, Mormons should be able to SHOW US that Jewish American Indians, writing in an Egyptian dialect ever used the following words to mean what the Book of Mormon says they mean. Mormons, please show us some reason to think that anyone in ancient America...


•Used the word "Irreantum" to refer to "many waters" (1 Ne. 17:5)
•Used the word "Rabbanah" to refer to "powerful or great king" (Alma 18:13)
•Used the word "Rameumptom" to refer to "the holy stand" (Alma 31:21)
•Used the word "Liahona" to mean "a compass" (Alma 37:38)
•Used the word "deseret" in reference to "a honey bee" (Ether 2:3)
•Used the word "Ripliancum" to mean "large, or to exceed all" (Ether 15:8)


If you cannot meet this challenge, the best explanation for your failure will remain that the Book of Mormon is a fantasy - a LIE told in the name of The Lord Jesus Christ. After all, fantasy names belong in fantasy books. But the Word of God should not be a fantasy. If simple honesty is any part of the "fruit" that Mormons claim as evidence of the truth of their religion, the Mormon failure to meet this challenge should bother those Mormons who take only a few moments to allow themselves to actually THINK about this problem.


Mittens,

While I agree with much of what is written above, and having read a number of your posts before, the first thought that came to me was that you did not write this. It's important for one not to plagiarize others, so you need to make sure you give proper credit to BrianH who did write it. Unless you are BrianH. :wink:
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Re: Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

Post by Mittens »

son of Ishmael wrote:
Mittens wrote:.



Mittens,

I totally agree, the Book of Mormon is a book of fantasy. Now why don't you spend some time putting the bible under the same microscope and see if you don't find another book of fantasy.


The Bible came down from us directly from God and protected by God so it is non-fiction Is God base while Book of Mormon is man based and fiction
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Re: Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

Post by The Erotic Apologist »

Mittens wrote:The Bible came down from us directly from God and protected by God so it is non-fiction Is God base while Book of Mormon is man based and fiction

You're saying you know the bible came from god because it's written in the bible?
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Re: Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

Post by subgenius »

The Erotic Apologist wrote:
Mittens wrote:The Bible came down from us directly from God and protected by God so it is non-fiction Is God base while Book of Mormon is man based and fiction

You're saying you know the bible came from god because it's written in the bible?

i would suggest walking away from this EAllusion....otherwise, do enjoy your journey into Mittens-Land :biggrin:

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Re: Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

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The Erotic Apologist wrote:
Mittens wrote:The Bible came down from us directly from God and protected by God so it is non-fiction Is God base while Book of Mormon is man based and fiction

You're saying you know the bible came from god because it's written in the bible?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr1I3mBojc0
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Re: Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

Post by son of Ishmael »

Mittens wrote:
[b]The Bible came down from us directly from God and protected by God so it is non-fiction Is God base while Book of Mormon is man based and fiction



OK how about this:

"The Koran came down from us directly from God and protected by God so it is non-fiction Is God base while the bible is man based and fiction"


or:

"Mad magazine came down from us directly from God and protected by God so it is non-fiction Is God base while the bible is man based and fiction"
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Re: Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

Post by jo1952 »

Mittens wrote:
The Bible came down from us directly from God and protected by God so it is non-fiction Is God base.....


Prove it.

Blessings,

jo

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Re: Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

Post by jo1952 »

Mittens wrote:
The Bible came down from us directly from God and protected by God so it is non-fiction Is God base.....


Actually, this is the same claim Muslims make about the Quran. They believe the Quran was given directly by God (aka Allah); and God in the Quran is the same God for all of humanity --- not just for the Muslims. Muslims pretty much make the same claims about the Quran that Christians make about the Bible.

Blessings,

jo

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Re: Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

Post by Robert F Smith »

Mittens (BrianH)
Dr. Grant Palmer (Ph.D., BYU - American History), a 34-year veteran of the Mormon Church's official Church Education System has abandoned his former faith in Joseph Smith, the LDS Church and the Mormon religion as a result of his study into the true origins of his former religion. His most notable work is a book entitled, "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins", in which Dr. Palmer traces the sources Joseph Smith used to write the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham, etc.

Dr. Palmer has also produced a variety of articles on the same topics. One of the items I found interesting recently come from this LINK. In the article entitled, "Has an actual Book of Mormon location been found - Nahom?" Dr. Palmer points out some interesting linguistic problems in the Book of Mormon. The fact is, the Book of Mormon's unique transliterated terms and place-names have no valid etymology - no history of use in any known language.


First off, Mr. Grant H. Palmer (aka “Paul Pry”) has no Ph.D., not from BYU or any other institution. He has no training or experience in linguistics, and knows no biblical or ancient Near Eastern languages relevant to the discussion of etymologies for Book of Mormon words of foreign origin. His book, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins (Signature Books, 2002), is a poorly reasoned and poorly written hit piece, early parts of which I saw being circulated under his pseudonym back in the 1980s (see FARMS Review, 15/2 [2003], online at http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publications/review/?vol=15&num=2 ). He would not know a proper etymology if he saw one, and is clearly not familiar with the academic literature on the subject

The short list presented to us above by you [BrianH “Mittens”] is well familiar from your http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?125557-BoM-Place-Names-Have-No-Valid-Etymology , but the list actually originated with scholars publishing with FARMS. A responsible and honest approach to the etymological questions would be to engage the proposals which have long since been made, showing in what ways you believe them to be “invalid.”

In fact, most of the words you mention have reasonable ancient Near Eastern etymologies, e.g.,

IRREANTUM, “Many Waters,” has several possible etymologies (as is the case for many biblical names), but I personally favor comparing the name of the greatest river in Syria, the Orontes (Greek), which the Neo-Assyrians called IDA-ra-ante (the ID superscript identifies rivers), Egyptian ’Irnt, and the Medo-Persians Haeravanta, Auruuant, Arwand “rich, splendid, heroic.” Written in Egyptian with the water determinative at the end, it might have seemed quite appropriate to the Lehites.

RABBANAH, “‘powerful’ or ‘great king’” (Alma 18:13), clearly comes from Hebrew rāb “great, magnate” and rabbâ “heavy, much,” and in late Jewish antiquity the Aramaic form of the root, rabbana, was used for the ruler of the Diaspora (exilarch) and for the heads of the great talmudic academies. However, note much earlier Assyro-Babylonian rabbani, rabbānû “chieftan,” written syllabically by those scribes in Sumerian cuneiform as LÚ.GAL “king.”

RAMEUMPTOM is a combination of two Hebrew words, *rame-ʿomdam "Their-high-standing-place," combined to mean exactly what the Book of Mormon text says at Alma 31:13,21,23: “Holy-Stand; a place of standing which was high above the head." Note that it is a holy or high place of standing for Zoramites. Note further that the prayer recited by the Zoramites while on that stand is a dead ringer for an early form of the most important prayer in Judaism, the ʿAmida (the prayer said while “standing”).

LIAHONA (only in Alma 37:38) is described as a fine brass “ball” with two spindles (1 Nephi 16:10), a “compass” (1 Nephi 18:12, Alma 37:38), and a “ball or director” (Mosiah 1:16, Alma 37:38), which appeared suddenly outside Lehi’s tent and showed what course to go in the Old World trek into south Arabia. Several proposals have been made, but I personally favor use of the Hebrew verb hānā “to pitch (tent), encamp, dwell” (cognate with ancient Egyptian hn “tent”), namely one “encamps” (Psalm 34:8 [KJV 34:7] “the angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear him, and delivers them”), a word used frequently throughout Exodus and Numbers as the Israelites travel from location to location. Those who realize that the Lehites reenact that Israelite Exodus sequence, will see that lia-hona may mean “encamped for the Lord (Yah).”

This is only a small sampling, and there are many words and names from the Book of Mormon onomasticon which are very well based. Simply search the Maxwell Institute website at http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu for the specific word of interest.

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Re: Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

Post by Mittens »

http://www.mormonhandbook.com/home/thom ... guson.html

Thomas Stuart Ferguson was the big deal in the 1970s when I first investigated Mormonism
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Re: Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

Post by Tobin »

Mittens wrote:http://www.mormonhandbook.com/home/thomas-stuart-ferguson.html

Thomas Stuart Ferguson was the big deal in the 1970s when I first investigated Mormonism


Ah Mittens, are you ever going to respond to your critics and stop posting up non-sense like the stuff above?

1) The Book of Mormon is a scriptural book, not historical. Finding archeological evidence of where it took place requires that we know where to look in the first place!

2) The BofA, as I have often discussed, is not a translation of the corrupt Egyptian papyrus. It is the restoration of the orginal writings of Abraham.

3) The REASON Ferguson lost his faith is he went about it in all the wrong ways. The Book of Mormon asks us to seek God and speak with God face-to-face. That is how we know Joseph Smith told the truth. We don't believe Joseph Smith because of what he claimed. Of course it could be a fraud (and an obvious one at that). We believe him because God tells us to.
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Re: Liahona Irreantum Rabbanah deseret

Post by Mittens »

If it a scriptural Book ?

teachings of Mormons not found in Book of Mormon, The Articles of Faith “ Mormon Creed” or Bible.

1. The plurality of Gods (Mormon Doctrine pp. 576, 577)
2. The baptism for the dead done in holy temples (Mormon Doctrine pp. 72,73)
3. Celestial marriage which no unworthy member or outsider can attend (Mormon Doctrine pp. 117, 118)
4. Polygamy needed to become a God (Journal of Discourse, Vol. II p. 269)
5. Blacks were cursed with a dark skin (Mormon Doctrine p. 109)
6. You can become a God if you are worthy; celestial marriage required (Mormon Doctrine p. 118)
7. We were all pre-existent spirits (Mormon Doctrine p. 589)
8. God has a body of flesh and bones (Mormon Doctrine p. 289)
9. We have a Heavenly Mother as well as a Heavenly Father (Mormon Doctrine p. 516)
10. There are three levels of heaven. To go to the highest kingdom, you must be a Mormon. Honorable persons go to the Terrestrial kingdom. The dishonest, liars, sorcerers, adulterers and whoremongers go to the Telestial kingdom. (Mormon Doctrine pp. 420, 421)
11. God and his wife achieved a celestial marriage (Celestial Marriage Manual p. 1)
12. Heavenly Father died just like Jesus (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 346)
13. God was once just like us and progressed to godhood (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 345)
14. God has a father and His Father has a Father, etc. (Mormon Doctrine p. 322)
15. Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers (Mormon Doctrine p. 192)
16. Jesus and Lucifer each had a plan to people the earth. Jesus' plan was chosen and caused Lucifer to rebel and he and the angels that followed him were cast out of heaven. (Mormon Doctrine p. 193)
17. God lives near a star called Kolob (Mormon Doctrine p. 428)
18. Temple endowments are so sacred that you must be worthy to enter (Mormon Doctrine pp. 619, 620)
19. Jesus was not able to keep his church together (History of the Church Vol. 6 pp. 408, 409)
20. In the future, you will need Joseph Smith's consent in order to enter the celestial kingdom (Journal of Discourse Vol. 7 p.289)
21. Not everything you'll need to know concerning salvation will be recorded in the Bible but there will be additional scriptures (Mormon Doctrine p. 83)"
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve

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