Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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just me
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by just me »

My post keeps getting eaten. Very frustrating.

The only reason anyone questioned this story to begin with was because no Arthur Patton could be found on the list of the dead from the National Archives. That is what led to further investigation. Well, actually, the fact that the details of the story changed so drastically from one telling to the next was another reason.

I, personally, am really glad this thread got started because I have been trying to work out this puzzle off and on since that NOM thread. This thread has brought a whole lot of new (to me) information to light. It has been exciting for me.

Anyway, I won't be changing my long post. It is so outdated at this point that I would rather just write a whole new post about it. My mind has never been set on this topic and I will go where the evidence takes me.

I am very interested to see what Steve Benson posts on this topic.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Nevo »

DrW wrote:It appears that the believers here are saying that it is okay for President Monson makes stuff up as he goes along.

Why would anyone reading this thread assume that President Monson made this story up? So far all of the evidence suggests that it is substantially accurate.

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Morley »

Nevo wrote:
DrW wrote:It appears that the believers here are saying that it is okay for President Monson makes stuff up as he goes along.

Why would anyone reading this thread assume that President Monson made this story up? So far all of the evidence suggests that it is substantially accurate.


As just me says, "...because no Arthur Patton could be found on the list of the dead from the National Archives."

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by stemelbow »

Morley wrote:As just me says, "...because no Arthur Patton could be found on the list of the dead from the National Archives."


It had nothing to do with efforts to expose Monson as fabricating a story? or are you saying critics just knew the National Archives by heart and the name wasn't there?

It does make me wonder how often a critic will do this with LDS people's talks though. "wait a second...did he just say Michael Jackson died in 1894...I know that that dude died in the 2000s sometime....I'll get him."
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Morley »

stemelbow wrote:
Morley wrote:As just me says, "...because no Arthur Patton could be found on the list of the dead from the National Archives."


It had nothing to do with efforts to expose Monson as fabricating a story? or are you saying critics just knew the National Archives by heart and the name wasn't there?

It does make me wonder how often a critic will do this with LDS people's talks though. "wait a second...did he just say Michael Jackson died in 1894...I know that that dude died in the 2000s sometime....I'll get him."


Would you rather that Elder Dunn had not been exposed? You can answer: it's not a hypothetical question.

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by stemelbow »

Morley wrote:Would you rather that Elder Dunn had not been exposed? You can answer: it's not a hypothetical question.


So, seeing as Elder Dunn made up stories then it goes to reason that other LDS leaders have made up stories? Okay, if that's how you see it.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Morley »

stemelbow wrote:
Morley wrote:Would you rather that Elder Dunn had not been exposed? You can answer: it's not a hypothetical question.


So, seeing as Elder Dunn made up stories then it goes to reason that other LDS leaders have made up stories? Okay, if that's how you see it.


Not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is:

"Would you rather that Elder Dunn had not been exposed?"

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by just me »

stem, there are huge discrepencies between the two stories, including how, when and where Arthur died. This provoked people to do research. Some people really enjoy doing research. This particular story would have been of interest to not only genealogy buffs, but also military buffs.

Were people supposed to pretend they didn't see the massive changes?
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Nomad »

Morley wrote:
Nevo wrote:Why would anyone reading this thread assume that President Monson made this story up? So far all of the evidence suggests that it is substantially accurate.


As just me says, "...because no Arthur Patton could be found on the list of the dead from the National Archives."

Thousands of military personnel in WWII are listed as "missing in action" instead of "dead". If Patton was MIA, he wouldn't appear on the list of the dead. He would be presumed dead, and for naval casualties, that was pretty much a done deal. Lots of infantry MIA's eventually turned up as POW's, but not naval MIA's. So that is a distinct possibility if he's not listed as dead, especially if he shows up on the roster of his last ship on 19 July 1944, but not in October of the same year. Not much chance he transfered to a new ship in the meantime, and if he did that would have almost surely have left a paper trail. From what Nevo says, he doesn't show up on any ship roster after July 1944.

I think it is pathetic that you people are trying to smear President Monson in this way.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Nomad »

just me wrote:Some people really enjoy doing research. This particular story would have been of interest to not only genealogy buffs, but also military buffs.

What a joke!

This isn't about history or genealogy hobbyists. It's about anti-mormons looking for something to use to beat up Pres. Monson. Plain and simple.

I think it's a pathetic, sad example of how obsessed exmormons can get in their attempts to slam the church.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Morley »

Nomad wrote:.....

I think it is pathetic that you people are trying to smear President Monson in this way.


I'll ask the same of you. Would you rather that Elder Dunn had not been exposed?

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by just me »

Arthur Patton does not appear on the MIA list or the wounded list for Utah Navy. I checked.

Thus, people have had to do further research.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Nomad »

Morley wrote:
Nomad wrote:.....

I think it is pathetic that you people are trying to smear President Monson in this way.


I'll ask the same of you. Would you rather that Elder Dunn had not been exposed?

The two situations are not even remotely similar.
... she said that she was ready to drive up to Salt Lake City and confront ... Church leaders ... while well armed. The idea was ... dropped ... [because] she didn't have a 12 gauge with her.
-DrW about his friends (Link)

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by jon »

stemelbow wrote:
Morley wrote:Would you rather that Elder Dunn had not been exposed? You can answer: it's not a hypothetical question.


So, seeing as Elder Dunn made up stories then it goes to reason that other LDS leaders have made up stories? Okay, if that's how you see it.


Stem, what do you think of Holland holding up Hyrum's actual Book of Mormon when it wasn't Hrum's actual Book of Mormon?

Now, regardless of motivations and origins of this, Monson has told two different stories. Both about Arthur Patton dying in WWII. That is the only consistent part in relation to the facts.

There is no record of his death in WWII.

Seems odd given the fact that his mother received a telegram, meaning he was officially recorded as dead, yet he doesn't appear on the roles of the WWII casualties.

If Monson has made this up, then he has done a Dunn...so to speak...and should therefore be made emeritus (fired).
You cannot be unaware of the significance of something like that.

Either the facts will eventually check out - in which case you can say "I told you so" (quite rightly) point fingers and call everyone for even daring to think that a Church leader would make a public fib.

Or the facts won't check out - in which case members will need to put another thing on the already overburdened shelf (although in your case it will go in the bin ;-) which is fine, but it's yet another thing that cannot be accommodated into a testimony based on reality).
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Morley »

Nomad wrote:
Morley wrote:
I'll ask the same of you. Would you rather that Elder Dunn had not been exposed?

The two situations are not even remotely similar.


Please elaborate.

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by jon »

Nomad wrote:Thousands of military personnel in WWII are listed as "missing in action" instead of "dead"


..well done Nomad, that's exactly the point, thousands of military personnel in WWII are listed as 'MIA' or 'KIA'.
But not one Arthur Patton...
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by stemelbow »

Sorry, guys. I don't think Pres. Monson had any inkling that the record of his death was missing. Nor that his mother would hear his telling and correct the time of his death, which seems helpful to me. The criticism comes out of convenience, it seems.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Nevo »

Nomad wrote:From what Nevo says, he doesn't show up on any ship roster after July 1944.

By the way, I took another look at that muster record. I should have scrolled to the bottom because it actually explains a lot.

The notation referring to Arthur Patton states that he went "missing as result of own misconduct" on 4 July 1944.

Image

Another sailor, Blake Pauley, shared the same fate. They seem to have both gone missing while the ship was at Enewetak Atoll.

In any case, it appears that Mrs. Patton was told that her son was killed on 5 July—and that is who President Monson got his information from. Presumably Arthur did die around then because the USS White Plains left Enewetak Atoll without him.

For the genealogy buffs out there, Mrs. Patton was born Terese (Theresa) Loikits on 11 November 1894 to Sigmund Loikits (1869-1919) and Theresa Kneiss (1871-1947) in Hungary. Sigmund emigrated to America in 1903 (arr. 12 May 1903) and his family followed two years later. They settled in Lincoln, Berrien Co., Michigan. Sigmund and Theresa are buried at Resurrection Cemetery in St. Joseph, Berrien, MI. Mrs. Patton died in California in June 1980.

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Morley »

Thanks, Nevo. Can we get a link?

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Nevo »

Morley wrote:Thanks, Nevo. Can we get a link?

This is the link:

http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?ti=0&indiv=try&db=navymuster&h=49767610

But I believe you will need an Ancestry.com subscription to see it.

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Buffalo »

Well done, Nevo. This is looking good for Monson.
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