Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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sock puppet
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by sock puppet »

interested wrote:Monson is not a prophet; he is a storyteller posing as a prophet who has been caught in assertions in the course of his Patton storytelling that are demonstrably untrue.

If Monson were telling a story about Humpty Dumpty where he was trying to pass it off as true, then yes, I would ask for the evidence showing that it was true--just like if Monson were asserting that Santa Claus, Mother Goose and unicorns really exist.

In the Patton case (and that's what, of course, we are ultimately talking about here), Monson is presenting his story as being historically true and accurate. Yet, he has already skinned back from his original incarnation of events and timelines because he got fundamental facts strikingly wrong; and in his second retelling he has made further declarations which he presents as being true that based on available, cross-checkable evidence are not true. Yet, Monson provides no counter evidence to support that they are historical facts.

In the meantime, Monson's Patton storytelling is littered with other assertions that, at best, are questionable as to their veracity.

Monson is not only a storyteller, he is a bad storyteller, for this simple reason: He claims that his stories are factual in particulars that are are empirically disprovable.

In short, Thomas S. Monson is like Paul H. Dunn. They are both incurable yarn spinners cut from the same garment.

Veracity aside, Dunn told more interesting stories than Monson.

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by harmony »

interested wrote:Monson is not a prophet; he is a storyteller posing as a prophet who has been caught in assertions in the course of his Patton storytelling that are demonstrably untrue.


One cannot be a prophet and a storyteller?
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Steve Benson »

If the storyteller is telling demonstrable lies while claiming to be prophetically telling the truth, that would tend to undermine any claim to prophetic ability, reliablity or credibility.

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Steve Benson »

Veracity aside, Dunn told more interesting stories than Monson
.

Mark Twain also told interesting stories--better than either Dunn's or Monson's--and not all of Twain's stories were true.

But, unlike Dunn or Monson, Twain didn't say they were.

Big difference.

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by jon »

It seems the general consenus of rational opinion is that Monson got things wrong. Wildly wrong in 1969 and less wrong in 2007.

The bits he gets wrong there seems to be no reasonable explanation for, other than he made stuff up without foundation.

Some people don't have a problem with his embellishments on the basis that his intentions were good and the spirit of the tale was what was important, rather than factual accuracy.

This is exactly the rationale Paul H Dunn used to justify his embellishments. See other thread on Paul H Dunn for further details.

Now what...?

Well I fully expect the storm clouds surrounding the tale of Arthur Patton to shed some rain in perhaps the not too distant future. Monson may need to make use of the COB umbrella if he is to stay dry.

I would be very surprised if future General Conference talks by Monson contained errors like those we have seen here. In the end we may well have done him a large favour - probably at the cost of a talk writer or researchers gainful employment.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Madison54 »

jon wrote:I would be very surprised if future General Conference talks by Monson contained errors like those we have seen here. In the end we may well have done him a large favour - probably at the cost of a talk writer or researchers gainful employment.


I agree and I think we may have already seen the caliber of talks Monson will be giving at conference from now on. Ones about miraculous $5.00 bills surviving wash day still in a jean's pocket. The facts on that one are pretty difficult to verify.

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by harmony »

interested wrote:If the storyteller is telling demonstrable lies while claiming to be prophetically telling the truth, that would tend to undermine any claim to prophetic ability, reliablity or credibility.


Ever heard of the story of Coyote?
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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harmony wrote:
interested wrote:If the storyteller is telling demonstrable lies while claiming to be prophetically telling the truth, that would tend to undermine any claim to prophetic ability, reliablity or credibility.


Ever heard of the story of Coyote?


There are many stories of "Coyote" in Native American mythology (all of them entertaining... very much like Aesop's fables of Fox). Which one are you referring to?
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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harmony wrote:
interested wrote:Monson is not a prophet; he is a storyteller posing as a prophet who has been caught in assertions in the course of his Patton storytelling that are demonstrably untrue.


One cannot be a prophet and a storyteller?


It is proposed that we sustain Thomas S. Monson as prophet, storyteller, and embellisher........

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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Quasimodo wrote:
harmony wrote:
Ever heard of the story of Coyote?


There are many stories of "Coyote" in Native American mythology (all of them entertaining... very much like Aesop's fables of Fox). Which one are you referring to?


The one where he put on roller skates and strapped a rocket on his back, but still couldn't catch the roadrunner.

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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Darth J wrote:It is proposed that we sustain Thomas S. Monson as prophet, storyteller, and embellisher........


Is lying a sin? I think morally that it is wrong. I think that lying does point to a devious character. Other than the admonition to avoid bearing false witness, I don't find it banned in the Bible, anywhere.

Can we lie without suffering eternal consequences?
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Quasimodo »

Darth J wrote:
The one where he put on roller skates and strapped a rocket on his back, but still couldn't catch the roadrunner.


My favorite cartoons! Written both for youngsters and adults. Rocky and Bullwinkle were the same. I'm guessing that the writers were cracking themselves up while coming up with episode ideas.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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interested wrote:If the storyteller is telling demonstrable lies while claiming to be prophetically telling the truth, that would tend to undermine any claim to prophetic ability, reliablity or credibility.


Nah, the stories were meant to emphasize a point he was making in a talk rather than being an exposition of a historical event. I see it as being like an inspiring story in Readers Digest or Grimms' Fairy Tales rather than something which would be included in the Columbia Timeline of the World. Why would the story about Jonah and the whale in any way diminish that biblical author's credibility?
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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Did Jesus fib about facts in the parables?

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Madison54 »

sock puppet wrote:Did Jesus fib about facts in the parables?


Great question in light of this current discussion.

But, as far as I know.....Jesus never represented his parables as being the truth, did he? He also never claimed to be the one who was the main character in them (just symbolically). At least these are my impressions. I would love to know other's thoughts on this.

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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sock puppet wrote:Did Jesus fib about facts in the parables?


You mean was there really a good samaritan? Well, there were undoubtedly Samaritans that were good. Roadside muggings did occur. There were people who professed righteousness but couldn't be bothered to stop and lend a hand. As Dickens would observe, it was a time very much like our own.

So was the story Jesus related an actual event off the Israeli crime blotter? Who knows. What was important was the message that could be gleaned from the tale.

Parables are wonderful. Perhaps we could chat about it further at the Great Banquet. Perhaps we could look for the Lost Attendee. Perhaps then we can help Shine a Lamp on this matter. Till then we can content ourselves with symbolism.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Dr. Shades »

Darth J wrote:
Quasimodo wrote:There are many stories of "Coyote" in Native American mythology (all of them entertaining... very much like Aesop's fables of Fox). Which one are you referring to?

The one where he put on roller skates and strapped a rocket on his back, but still couldn't catch the roadrunner.

LOfreakin'L!

+1 to you, sir.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by subgenius »

Madison54 wrote:
jon wrote:I would be very surprised if future General Conference talks by Monson contained errors like those we have seen here. In the end we may well have done him a large favour - probably at the cost of a talk writer or researchers gainful employment.


I agree and I think we may have already seen the caliber of talks Monson will be giving at conference from now on. Ones about miraculous $5.00 bills surviving wash day still in a jean's pocket. The facts on that one are pretty difficult to verify.

not so sure,
i expect the critics here to reveal that when Thomas S. Monson was younger he told this same story but spoke of finding a "fin" in his "dungarees", thus revealing his weakness for contemporary colloquialisms and rendering any and all of the CoJCoLDS invalid.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by jon »

Hi subgenius, thanks for posting on the 'thread that won't die'.

It's the good folks like you that keep threads like this going and going and going and going and going and...well, you get my point.


Any way - looks like Monson got caught out on this one - in terms of the OP question "Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...? Kinda looks like it don't ya think?
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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People who tune into General Conference are generally believers already.

When Thomas S. Monson is at the podium, they believe they are hearing from a man to whom god funnels his messages to the rest of us. I.e., god's prophet.

Does one who is already held in such high regard really need to embellish the facts of a story to drive home a point to the LDS faithful listening in?

Wouldn't just telling the General Conference congregation that they should spiritually minister with other people they know to be in need be enough? Or a simple declarative statement to the General Conference congregation that after death, we will again have the companionship of those that have died before us?

What is the need for these stories in the first place, whether true or untrue?

IIRC, Bruce R. McConkie was not much of a story teller, but a dispenser of doctrine, boldly declared. Now I realize that Bruce R. McConkie has been downplayed by the GAs and especially the mopologists since his death, but Bruce R. McConkie was a religious leader who did not need the crutch of telling stories to be taken seriously. From those sermons of JSJr that I've read, such as the King Follett sermon (4/7/1844 at JSJr's last General Conference) or that famous/infamous one aboard the Maid of Iowa on Sunday, 6/26/1844 just weeks before his death, there was not such story telling. There was doctrine dispensing.

Maybe the storytelling points up more that the COJCOLDS has run out of doctrine to preach, more than it points out that Dunn, Thomas S. Monson, and others tell a fib or two here and there.

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Madison54 »

sock puppet wrote:Maybe the storytelling points up more that the COJCOLDS has run out of doctrine to preach, more than it points out that Dunn, Thomas S. Monson, and others tell a fib or two here and there.


I agree. Monson has never been a doctrinally deep speaker. His talks have always mostly been "feel good", "emotion evoking" talks. I've heard many call his talks "fluff". He actually used to be my favorite speaker when I was a teenager. But as an adult (and especially with what is going on in the world today...people starving to death....many loosing their jobs and homes....kids on drugs....and so on) I would hope that when the Prophet of God (of the entire earth today) takes the podium, he'd have more to offer.

Most of his talks would be considered an average sacrament meeting talk.

I know several active members who have really struggled with Monson being the Prophet because of this and who miss Hinckley a great deal.

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