Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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Morley
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Morley »

jon wrote:
Then, he said, "I learned that something akin to a miracle had taken place." LDS neighbors of Mrs. Terese Patton in California invited her to their home to listen to a session of that April 1969 general conference. "She accepted their invitation and thus was listening to the very session where I directed my remarks to her personally."


1969?
Just for clarification, were you able to view sessions of conference in your home in 1969?


In California, circa 1969, I'm sure LDS Conference sessions were available on the radio.

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by just me »

subgenius wrote:perhaps it is worth looking into Kenneth Patten from Payson as well, though he may have been a childhood friend, i am sure we are all assuming he was "originally from" Utah?


What would the value be of looking into Kenneth Patton?
I've already outlined the reason that Monson had to have been using the actual names. Do you believe it likely that the mother of Kenneth Patton would have recognized the story was about her and her son if the details, including names, were different?
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by jon »

We have established that Monson didn't tell the story the same way twice, even though he had access to all necessary documentation about it, including his own talks.

If Arthur Patton didn't exist or didn't serve and die in WWII I'm not sure where that would leave the Prophet of Christ's one true Church on Earth.


Remember Paul H Dunn got binned for this type of thing.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by just me »

I now have a document listing an Arthur Frank Patton of Salt Lake City with a mother named Teresa Patton in the Navy in 1941. It is listed in the Utah, Military Records, 1861-1970 on Ancestry.com. It looks like it might have come from a newspaper article and an enlistment book. The card scanned online gives no birthdate.

This record lists an address that was several city blocks away from the 1930 home of Thomas Monson and his family. It was .8 miles away and about 15 minutes by foot.

There is now a new Public Family Tree on Ancestry.com listing an Arthur Frank Julius Patton with a death date of April 1944 with the note "disappeared 55 miles off of Saipan." Same parents as the Chicago 1930 census record which I refer to in my post.

I will probably be editing my long post with the new information I am finding sometime in the next few days.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Blixa »

I'll just throw this out for you, subgenius.

My father (at the time a very well known person in Salt Lake City) once had to call Thomas S. Monson for business reason. This was before Thomas S. Monson was president. During the phone call, Thomas S. Monson made a lot of very specific references to things in my father's childhood that left him thinking that Thomas S. Monson had his church records open in front of him during the call. Thomas S. Monson also proceeded to tell a lot of folksy stories about my father's childhood and knowing him then. This dumbfounded my dad, who had never met Thomas S. Monson and felt the whole thing sounded like, in his words, "a bunch of made-up bull that he embellished with things he was reading from my record."

I think Mormon GA's are sincere tellers of folksy stories that stretch the truth to various lengths in their efforts to make people "feel the spirit."

Call it whatever you like.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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just me wrote:I now have a document listing an Arthur Frank Patton of Salt Lake City with a mother named Teresa Patton in the Navy in 1941. It is listed in the Utah, Military Records, 1861-1970 on Ancestry.com. It looks like it might have come from a newspaper article and an enlistment book. The card scanned online gives no birthdate.

This record lists an address that was several city blocks away from the 1930 home of Thomas Monson and his family. It was .8 miles away and about 15 minutes by foot.

There is now a new Public Family Tree on Ancestry.com listing an Arthur Frank Julius Patton with a death date of April 1944 with the note "disappeared 55 miles off of Saipan." Same parents as the Chicago 1930 census record which I refer to in my post.

I will probably be editing my long post with the new information I am finding sometime in the next few days.

In other words, the essential facts of the story, as told by President Monson, are correct. And all of the gleeful apostate crowing that he had been "caught in a lie" was based on nothing at all, except the twisted exmormon obsession to make people offenders for a word.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by jon »

Just Me, are the new records on ancestry.com official records or human entries?
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Nomad »

Blixa wrote:I'll just throw this out for you, subgenius.

My father (at the time a very well known person in Salt Lake City) once had to call Thomas S. Monson for business reason. This was before Thomas S. Monson was president. During the phone call, Thomas S. Monson made a lot of very specific references to things in my father's childhood that left him thinking that Thomas S. Monson had his church records open in front of him during the call. Thomas S. Monson also proceeded to tell a lot of folksy stories about my father's childhood and knowing him then. This dumbfounded my dad, who had never met Thomas S. Monson and felt the whole thing sounded like, in his words, "a bunch of made-up bull that he embellished with things he was reading from my record."

I think Mormon GA's are sincere tellers of folksy stories that stretch the truth to various lengths in their efforts to make people "feel the spirit."

I think its dishonest.

I'm sure you do. In your eyes they're all dishonest.

You're all a bunch of sick, twisted people who think the product of your imaginations is somehow related to truth.



ETA: I see you were quick on the edit button. So don't you think it was "dishonest" anymore, now that we know there really was an Arthur Patton?

lol!
Last edited by Nomad on Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
... she said that she was ready to drive up to Salt Lake City and confront ... Church leaders ... while well armed. The idea was ... dropped ... [because] she didn't have a 12 gauge with her.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by jon »

Nomad wrote:
just me wrote:I now have a document listing an Arthur Frank Patton of Salt Lake City with a mother named Teresa Patton in the Navy in 1941. It is listed in the Utah, Military Records, 1861-1970 on Ancestry.com. It looks like it might have come from a newspaper article and an enlistment book. The card scanned online gives no birthdate.

This record lists an address that was several city blocks away from the 1930 home of Thomas Monson and his family. It was .8 miles away and about 15 minutes by foot.

There is now a new Public Family Tree on Ancestry.com listing an Arthur Frank Julius Patton with a death date of April 1944 with the note "disappeared 55 miles off of Saipan." Same parents as the Chicago 1930 census record which I refer to in my post.

I will probably be editing my long post with the new information I am finding sometime in the next few days.

In other words, the essential facts of the story, as told by President Monson, are correct. And all of the gleeful apostate crowing that he had been "caught in a lie" was based on nothing at all, except the twisted exmormon obsession to make people offenders for a word.


If the story pans out I'll be the first one to hold my hands up and say fair enough. However, you seem to be jumping the gun slightly.
Ancestry.Com family tree's are human entries are they not? I think an official military listing/document is going to be required on this one.

If that turns up fair enough, all Monson is guilty of is not being able to tell the same story twice, and having his later accounts more accurate than the ones closer to the actual event time. No crime there, even Joseph Smith managed that.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by jon »

Nomad wrote:people who think the product of your imaginations is somehow related to truth.


Wow, you say some profound things, what a pity it's never deliberate.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Blixa »

Nomad wrote:
Blixa wrote:I'll just throw this out for you, subgenius.

My father (at the time a very well known person in Salt Lake City) once had to call Thomas S. Monson for business reason. This was before Thomas S. Monson was president. During the phone call, Thomas S. Monson made a lot of very specific references to things in my father's childhood that left him thinking that Thomas S. Monson had his church records open in front of him during the call. Thomas S. Monson also proceeded to tell a lot of folksy stories about my father's childhood and knowing him then. This dumbfounded my dad, who had never met Thomas S. Monson and felt the whole thing sounded like, in his words, "a bunch of made-up bull that he embellished with things he was reading from my record."

I think Mormon GA's are sincere tellers of folksy stories that stretch the truth to various lengths in their efforts to make people "feel the spirit."

I think its dishonest.

I'm sure you do. In your eyes they're all dishonest.

You're all a bunch of sick, twisted people who think the product of your imaginations is somehow related to truth.



ETA: I see you were quick on the edit button. So don't you think it was "dishonest" anymore, now that we know there really was an Arthur Patton?

lol!


I wasn't particularly quick with the edit button. The length of time it takes for posts to appear on this board makes editing extremely difficult and slow. After I hit post, I decided to leave my remarks more open ended for sub genius and changed my post accordingly.

I haven't followed the Patton story at all. My only point is that FPR's play fast and loose with details. I think everyone knows this.

I do think the practice is dishonest. I don't think the speakers are anything but sincere. I suspect that is hard for you to understand.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by just me »

jon, the Public Family Tree is entered by a random human. It has no records attached to it and therefore could be made up crap...or not. I will need to do further research to find out.

The military record I cited is an actual card scanned online. The info on the card appears (based on the symbols at the bottom) to have come from an enlistment book and possibly a Tribune article. There is no key for the codes on the card, unfortunately, so I am still trying to discern what they mean. If anyone has easy access to 1941 Tribune archives please let me know.

I think that it is safe to say that there was an Arthur Patton of Salt Lake enlisted in the Navy in 1941 with a mother named Teresa. That is all I am willing to say at this point.

There are still several strange things about this story. Plus, finding the facts doesn't make Monson's stories suddenly not conflict. He was wrong in both stories.

In my original long post I hide no records or information that I have found. I will continue to put forth whatever I find. I am for discovering the truth. We know that Monson was mistaken in his stories. That is a fact.

Given what blixa has told us about her father's experience it seems that Thomas S. Monson is able to insert himself into real stories and events from people's lives.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by just me »

Nomad wrote:In other words, the essential facts of the story, as told by President Monson, are correct. And all of the gleeful apostate crowing that he had been "caught in a lie" was based on nothing at all, except the twisted exmormon obsession to make people offenders for a word.


What do you consider the essential facts of the story?
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by jon »

Just Me, what was demonstrably incorrect in his second telling of the story?
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by subgenius »

Blixa wrote:I'll just throw this out....

you should have stopped here.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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just me wrote:....
Given what blixa has told us about her father's experience it seems that Thomas S. Monson is able to insert himself into real stories and events from people's lives.

Not "given" but rather "assuming"....

it is possible that blixa is giving a bias account of her father's story, as well as, given the admitted circumstance, that blixa's father embellished the events to convey his own opinion, thus the version we are reading has deviated rather far from the actual events...mmmm....anyone see a pattern?...however, it is convenient that blixa's anecdote has no evidence in support of that "hearsay" to offer for examination.

regardless, there is no reason to believe every detail of blixa's story considering the bias motivation behind its telling, both by bilxa and blixa's father (both of whom i am sure truly believe the story they tell and would not dare exaggerate a single detail, and will likely tell a carbon copy tale in 4 decades)
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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just me wrote:....He also has access to the best genealogists one could ever hope for. I'm sure he could also get a fact checker just by asking.

which is more supportive of a notion that any inconsistencies were unintentional and likely caused by the frailties of the human mind. A proper conspirator would surely have taken advantage of such an arsenal for lie construction and perpetuation. It is unlikely that someone, knowing full well that an easily accessed record exists, would purposely contradict or confuse themselves if they were going to lie.
Especially someone with publishing experience......

and obviously you missed my previous comment about how this diabolical presidency will infiltrate and modify the genealogical record in order to keep in motion their nefarious plans for mind control and world domination.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by jon »

Sub, If Arthur Patton didn't die in WWII would that have any impact on your opinion of Thomas S Monson.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by just me »

jon, I am currently reviewing all of the databases that I previously searched. The thing about online databases is that they are always being updated with new information. There have been some additions since my last review of them in the Spring.

The fact remains that Arthur Patton does not appear on the list of the dead, missing or wounded on the National Archives webiste. If he did, in fact, die in the war and a telegram was sent to his mother I do not know why he would be absent from that list.

In order to tell you what Thomas S. Monson got wrong in his second telling of the story I need to figure out what the actual story is. That is going to take me a little bit of time. He was wrong about Arthur's age and when he enlisted.

subgenius, Thomas S. Monson had access to his first talk and even used portions of it word-for-word. The first talk was given when he was about 42 years old. Not exactly a "frail" age. Being able to review his old talk, and copy from it, would eliminate there being a "frailty of mind" issue with the second telling.

Thomas S. Monson waited until after the mother had died for his second retelling of this story. There is no way to confirm if he prayed with her or not.

Interestingly enough I have just discovered a post by Steve Benson on another board saying that his wife is researching this story and will be putting something out in the future. It was posted today.
Last edited by just me on Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Blixa »

The word you are looking for sub genius is "biased" not "bias."
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Nevo »

just me wrote:In order to tell you what Thomas S. Monson got wrong in his second telling of the story I need to figure out what the actual story is. That is going to take me a little bit of time. He was wrong about Arthur's age and when he enlisted.

Yes, quite right. President Monson said Arthur was 15 when he enlisted. Actually, he was 16 years and 3 months.

From spending 10 minutes or so on Ancestry.com, I was able to glean the following:

Arthur Frank(lin) Patton was born on 18 August 1925 in Chicago, Illinois. He enlisted in the US Navy on 10 December 1941. His mother was Teresa Patton of 533 South 2nd West, Salt Lake City. His service number was 368-71-14. He was mustered on the USS Dorsey on 10 September 1942 and appears regularly on the ship's muster rolls through 30 November 1943. He first appears on the USS White Plains (CVE-66) muster rolls on 30 May 1944 (as Arthur Franklin Patton). He appears again on 30 June 1944 and 19 July 1944. He does not appear on subsequent muster rolls on any ship. He was not among the crew of the USS White Plains during the Battle of Leyte Gulf the following October.

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