Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
Post Reply
harmony
God
Posts: 18195
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:35 pm

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by harmony »

interested wrote:It might not affect the quality of his life but it will affect the quality of his believability.


Hardly. Thomas S. Monson is quite believable, which is why it's unfortunate that he didn't get the details right on this.

I don't think it matters much in the grand scheme of things. Most people would raise their eyebrows...at the critics who are quibbling about such a small thing.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.

User avatar
Buffalo
God
Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:33 pm

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Buffalo »

I think it's clear that the story isn't a piece of Paul H. Dunnery. Did Monson fudge the details of the story to make it sound better? Probably. I'm sure they all do that. But let's get real - this is religion. It's all about feeling, not a dedication to only the facts. They're very likely staying closer to the facts than, for example, the writers of the New Testament. Or early Mormon leadership. Relatively speaking this isn't so bad.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.

User avatar
Morley
God
Posts: 3542
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Morley »

To tell the truth, this thread redeemed Pres. Monson a bit for me. When Patton wasn't on the military's war dead rolls, I was concerned that Monson's talk might be a total fabrication. That Patton was on a ship's muster and went missing around the time that was mentioned in one of the talks restores a measure of credibility to the man. Thanks to all who investigated this matter.

Yoda

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Yoda »

Would you rather that Elder Dunn had not been exposed?


Yes.

I enjoyed Elder Dunn's talks. He was one of the best speakers that the Church had.

So what if some of his stories were made up? He probably could have made quite a bit of money putting them all into a novel. Instead, he devoted his life to the Church. His messages were positive gospel messages. If he had been a preacher in any other Church, he would have likely been hailed.

Bah! We Mormons are way too judgmental. And Ex-Mormons don't tend to fall too far from the tree.

User avatar
Morley
God
Posts: 3542
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Morley »

liz3564 wrote:
Would you rather that Elder Dunn had not been exposed?


Yes.

I enjoyed Elder Dunn's talks. He was one of the best speakers that the Church had.

So what if some of his stories were made up? He probably could have made quite a bit of money putting them all into a novel. Instead, he devoted his life to the Church. His messages were positive gospel messages. If he had been a preacher in any other Church, he would have likely been hailed.

Bah! We Mormons are way too judgmental. And Ex-Mormons don't tend to fall too far from the tree.


Thank you for your honest response to this question, Liz. I suspect you're not alone in this.

I'm walking out the door, but will try to respond in the next few days.

Yoda

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Yoda »

Thank you for this honest response to this question, Liz. I suspect you're not alone in this.

I'm walking out the door, but will try to respond in the next few days.




Not a problem, Morely! I would like to discuss this with you further. Feel free to start another thread if you would like!

Have a good trip! :-)

User avatar
Dr. Shades
Founder & Visionary
Posts: 14130
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:07 pm

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Dr. Shades »

liz3564 wrote:
Would you rather that Elder Dunn had not been exposed?

Yes.

I enjoyed Elder Dunn's talks. He was one of the best speakers that the Church had.

So what if some of his stories were made up?

Do you feel the same way about Joseph Smith, Jr.? As long as he was a good speaker, so what if his stories were made up?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley

User avatar
Fifth Columnist
High Priest
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:08 pm

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Fifth Columnist »

liz3564 wrote:I enjoyed Elder Dunn's talks. He was one of the best speakers that the Church had.

So what if some of his stories were made up?

It matters because he represented them as being true.

One thing is for sure, many people felt the spirit when Dunn was telling those stories so it stands to reason that God must tacitly approve of what Dunn did ... or, on the other hand, feeling the spirit is not a reliable way to determine truth and is probably just an emotional response to an emotionally engaging and powerful story regardless of whether the story is true.

Yoda

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Yoda »

Shades wrote:Do you feel the same way about Joseph Smith, Jr.? As long as he was a good speaker, so what if his stories were made up?


I don't know. I never heard Joseph Smith Jr. speak.

Image

jon
God
Posts: 1464
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:15 am

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by jon »

liz3564 wrote:
Would you rather that Elder Dunn had not been exposed?


Yes.

I enjoyed Elder Dunn's talks. He was one of the best speakers that the Church had.


I met Dunn, spent time with him once.
He left me with the impression that he was actually a really nice decent bloke. I was gutted to find out about his fabrications. I wish he hadn't done it, but he did and he was held accountable for it.

To his credit, he held his hands up, explained his rationale and accepted with good grace his punishment.

When you are called as an Apostle you absolutely have to tell the truth.
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.

Yoda

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Yoda »

When you are called as an Apostle you absolutely have to tell the truth.



Dunn was not an Apostle. He was a General Authority. There is a difference. His highest office was as one of the 7 presidents in the Seventy.

jon
God
Posts: 1464
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:15 am

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by jon »

liz3564 wrote:
When you are called as an Apostle you absolutely have to tell the truth.



Dunn was not an Apostle. He was a General Authority. There is a difference. His highest office was as one of the 7 presidents in the Seventy.


Liz, you are quite right and I apologise to the board for the mistake.

I do stand by the statement that Apostles absolutely have to tell the truth. I guess GA's should too.
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.

User avatar
Nomad
Bishop
Posts: 504
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:07 pm

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Nomad »

Nevo wrote:
Nomad wrote:If we ever needed a good reason to join DCP and Will in leaving this board forever, I think this thread qualifies. Isn't it perfectly obvious to you that it is impossible to have a rational discussion with these people anymore? This thread has left me shaking my head like few others I have ever seen on this board, and that is really saying something. There is a violent, irrational undercurrent that has started to accompany almost every discussion that goes on here. To me, it's very disturbing. Like some kind of corner has been turned and suddenly it's not all fun and games anymore. There's no more point in trying to talk to them. It's gone way past that.

I agree. This board has turned into RfM.

You're exactly right. In some ways, it's even worse.

I'm done with this place.

Me too.



I do want you to know that, in all my years posting on this and at FAIR/MADB, you've been one of my favorite posters. Fare thee well.
... she said that she was ready to drive up to Salt Lake City and confront ... Church leaders ... while well armed. The idea was ... dropped ... [because] she didn't have a 12 gauge with her.
-DrW about his friends (Link)

jon
God
Posts: 1464
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:15 am

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by jon »

Bye Will,
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.

Yoda

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Yoda »

Nomad wrote:Fare thee well.


See you tomorrow! ;-)

User avatar
Buffalo
God
Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:33 pm

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Buffalo »

liz3564 wrote:
Nomad wrote:Fare thee well.


See you tomorrow! ;-)


I wonder what his next alt will be. :)
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.

Steve Benson
Star B
Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:15 pm

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Steve Benson »

Defenders here of Monson's mythologizing have complained that too much is being made of so-called "inconsequential" discrepancies in his over-the-top Patton promotionals.

This, then, is Mormon apologetics in a nutshell: Facts are inconsequential.

User avatar
Corpsegrinder
Area Authority
Posts: 615
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:33 pm

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Corpsegrinder »

Subgenius wrote:
wow, a legal reference... .. unfortunately it only applies to "willful" falsification, and that has not, nor will it be, proven.


Interesting. So, which of the conflicting versions of Thomas S. Monson's Arthur Patton talk is NOT a product of wilful falsification?

And are you willing to offer a similar assessment for the Bigfoot story that Spencer W. Kimball tells in Miracle of Forgiveness? Do you believe SWK when he says Bigfoot is Cain, doomed to walk the Earth until the Second Coming?

And what's wrong with the assumption that your avarage General Authority is no more honest than, say, your average politician?

User avatar
ludwigm
tired, less active investigator
Posts: 10158
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:07 am

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by ludwigm »

liz3564 wrote:
Shades wrote:Do you feel the same way about Joseph Smith, Jr.? As long as he was a good speaker, so what if his stories were made up?
I don't know. I never heard Joseph Smith Jr. speak.

You are lucky.
Would You has heard him, should You became his 3564th wife.
Image

If I have used incorrect tenses, please feel free to correct me.
In Hungarian, we have only three tense. Conditional is another business of the verbs...
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei

User avatar
Dr. Shades
Founder & Visionary
Posts: 14130
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:07 pm

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Dr. Shades »

liz3564 wrote:So what if some of his stories were made up? He probably could have made quite a bit of money putting them all into a novel.

Actually, he made a boatload of money putting them all into a multiplicity of books, audiotapes, etc.

We drove by his house once. The thing is a castle.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley

User avatar
Chap
God
Posts: 14186
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:23 am

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Chap »

liz3564 wrote:
Would you rather that Elder Dunn had not been exposed?


Yes.

I enjoyed Elder Dunn's talks. He was one of the best speakers that the Church had.


Let's just look at that: "one of the best speakers the Church ever had" was simply a serial liar. (I use the word "liar" here as a factual descriptor of someone who habitually makes statements he knows to be false with the aim of causing other people to believe those statements to be true.) Maybe it was a reflection of the kind of material he had to work with?

Isn't there some kind of a message here about what kind of belief system we are dealing with?

And as for that word 'Yes": I really hope it simply means "I would rather he had not been a liar" rather than "Even though he was a liar, I would have been happier if nobody had ever found out."
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.

Post Reply