Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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stemelbow
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by stemelbow »

jon wrote:Stem, if we ignore the obvious differences in specific details between the two accounts that Monson gave. How would you account for the Prophet standing up at conference and stating this as a fact?


How would I know? I'm not in Monson's mind. As I said, he could have gotten that impression by talking to the kid's mom. he could have heard something about it in the neighborhood. But somehow this detail means Monson fabricated it all to make for a faith promoting story. Even if the kid died while playing hopscotch and fell of the side of the boat the gist he was going for would have been the same.

There are no details recorded of exactly how he died. His mother didn't know,


You don't know that.

the military don't know


You don't know that.

and Monson definitely doesn't know.


I can agree with that in principle, but I can aslo say perhaps he has details none of us do.

So if we don't know how he died, how can we possibly know how long he took to die? The above statement by Monson that he gave in Conference is at best disingenuous, at worst it's a falsehood.


Only the mind of a cynic would conjur up these as the only options. As I said, perhaps Monson thought the word on the street in his neighborhood was reliable and perhaps that word on the street told a story quite different then he went missing while not getting back to the boat. Perhaps the records kept on the boat are wrong. We wouldn't know. But apparently that's enough for you to convict Monson because you don't like him.

And before you or someone else goes on about how that's not important, it's only some inconsequential little detail. He is supposed to be Gods direct representative on Earth. He is supposed to be better. His words, especially at Conference are supposed to be directly inspired from God. From what I know about God, He isn't slapdash about details. He doesn't make stuff up to add spirituality to his stories.


I disagree about your view of God. I don't' think He gives two pennies about whether Monson knows the cause of death or not. The story might not even be all the faith promoting anyway. But its touching because its personal to MOnson.
Love ya tons,
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by jon »

stemelbow wrote:
I disagree about your view of God. I don't' think He gives two pennies about whether Monson knows the cause of death or not. The story might not even be all the faith promoting anyway. But its touching because its personal to MOnson.


Conference isn't a time for old men to give personal anecdotes.
It's for Prophets and Apostles to rally the troops with inspirational speeches and prophecies and revelations and explanation of doctrines and for them to uplift spiritually the members for whom they have stewardship.

As for what I don't know. I think you'll find, if you read back a little, poor old Arthur died 'due to his own misconduct' and that is all the military recorded. So no, the military don't know, therefore his Mother doesn't know, therefore Monson doesn't know, therefore Monson was....let's say disingenuous.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Buffalo »

jon wrote:
Conference isn't a time for old men to give personal anecdotes.


Since when? :D
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by stemelbow »

jon wrote:Conference isn't a time for old men to give personal anecdotes.


What? So now you are saying these men can't tell personal stories to illustrate points, or warm up the audience? That's just silly.

It's for Prophets and Apostles to rally the troops with inspirational speeches and prophecies and revelations and explanation of doctrines and for them to uplift spiritually the members for whom they have stewardship.


So you really think that telling personal stories is somehow opposed to all of this?

As for what I don't know. I think you'll find, if you read back a little, poor old Arthur died 'due to his own misconduct' and that is all the military recorded. So no, the military don't know, therefore his Mother doesn't know, therefore Monson doesn't know, therefore Monson was....let's say disingenuous.


I've said my piece here. But I will add for clarification even if that is all the case Monson still could have heard through neighborhood chatter something different then the kid's mom, or what the official military story was. You must find yourself inside Monson's mind to know whether his rendition was something he felt comfortable in or not. I personally assume the good, because that's how I generally proceed with people.
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Stem


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Morley
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Morley »

Patton may not even be dead. He may be pulling a Gauguin.
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Chap
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Chap »

stemelbow wrote:Monson still could have heard through neighborhood chatter something different then the kid's mom, or what the official military story was.


Please ...

In 1944 the lady got a letter from the navy about her son who had gone missing from the White Plains on July 4th that year (and I hope, because I am a kind Chap, that the officer who drafted the letter left out the stuff about 'his own misconduct' being responsible). Monson went to see her, and they prayed about her dead son, his childhood friend.

And you want us to leave room for the possibility that either:

1. She said nothing to Monson about how and when her son died,

or

2. She told Monson how her son died and he decided to ignore it

and then (either way) he picked up street gossip that kid had gone down with the Lexington TWO YEARS EARLIER, and so put that into this 1969 talk instead of what really happened?

I'm sticking to my point made earlier: "[Monson's] faith promoting talks should carry a health warning along the lines of "Caution: this talk is intended to make you feel good. It is a faith supplement only, and may not contain actual facts"."
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by harmony »

Maybe he just forgot. Or maybe he's getting a bit senile and got his stories mixed up?
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by just me »

To be certain, the story is embellished and told in a way to tug at people's heartstrings. It also seems like Thomas wasn't that close to the family or could barely remember the family.

Thomas repeatedly calls himself a boy, a mere boy, an inadequate boy. He was actually graduated from high school and preparing to go to university when Arthur went missing.

He describes Mrs. Patton as a gray-haired lady who is stooped over with age. She was 49. If she was stooped it wasn't from age. It would be enlightening to see a photo of the woman from around that time. If anyone describes me like that when I am 49 it won't be pretty.

The way he describes her widowhood gives the impression that she was a widow during the childhood friendship forged with Arthur. Maybe I am alone in that impression, maybe not. The truth is, she didn't become a widow until 2 days before Arthur enlisted in the Navy. That in itself must be a fascinating story because her husband died in Chicago, not Salt Lake. He worked for the railroad.

I was also left with the impression that Arthur Patton was an only child. Thomas says that he was "her whole world" and that there was one star hanging in the window. The truth is that she had 4 children, 3 boys and 1 girl. As far as I can find, two of the boys were in the Navy. She would have had two stars hanging in her window. She had at least her daughter still living at home, possibly her oldest son as well.

He tells us that Arthur was the tallest in class. Monson would not have had class with Arthur, that I can tell, because they were 2 years apart in age.

He says that Arthur lied to the military about his age in order to enlist. I am not convinced that this is true. He is listed with his actual name and I am unsure about his birth on his records. But, he was 16 years and 3 months, or so, when he enlisted. Not 15. It doesn't appear, to me, that he used false identification to get in. Again, I am not a military expert so I don't know about those things.

These are the detail issues that go beyond the actual death and service information given about Arthur.

In the first talk he addresses Mrs. Patton over and over again. He wants her, and others, to know that there is life after death. Then, forty years later and after the death of Mrs. Patton he claims that something like a miracle happened and his address to her actually reached her ears! This time we get closer to the actual story, too, so someone has done some homework. Mrs. Patton would have been about 75 years old in 1969 during his first talk.

Now, it is entirely possible that the Thomas S. Monson did spend time in the Patton home and that he did receive a letter from her. However, when a story has so many errors in it one has to wonder if any of it is remembered correctly at all.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by just me »

stemelbow wrote: Perhaps the records kept on the boat are wrong.


I think you have alluded to records being wrong a few times on this thread. Do you have a reason for thinking that the records are wrong? What do you think is wrong about the records?
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Buffalo »

just me wrote:
He tells us that Arthur was the tallest in class. Monson would not have had class with Arthur, that I can tell, because they were 2 years apart in age.


Depends on how small the school was. My dad's high school was so small that everyone, freshman to seniors, were in the same class.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Chap »

harmony wrote:Maybe he just forgot. Or maybe he's getting a bit senile and got his stories mixed up?


He was senile in 1969 when he told us that, while flying over the Coral Sea on his way to Brisbane, he thought about this guy going down in battle with the Lexington in 1942, whereas in fact he went missing 'due to his own misconduct' from the White Plains in Eniwetok atoll two years later?
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by just me »

Buffalo wrote:
just me wrote:
He tells us that Arthur was the tallest in class. Monson would not have had class with Arthur, that I can tell, because they were 2 years apart in age.


Depends on how small the school was. My dad's high school was so small that everyone, freshman to seniors, were in the same class.


Ah, I did wonder about how big their elementary would be. I do not believe they were in high school together based on yearbooks and the years involved.
I may go digging around in the yearbooks again just for fun. ;)
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by stemelbow »

Chap wrote:Please ...

In 1944 the lady got a letter from the navy about her son who had gone missing from the White Plains on July 4th that year (and I hope, because I am a kind Chap, that the officer who drafted the letter left out the stuff about 'his own misconduct' being responsible). Monson went to see her, and they prayed about her dead son, his childhood friend.

And you want us to leave room for the possibility that either:

1. She said nothing to Monson about how and when her son died,

or

2. She told Monson how her son died and he decided to ignore it


Why do you assume Monson must have heard of the death from his mother? News could have spread via the neighborhood. She might not have wanted to talk about the letter suggesting death. And, as you suggest, she might not have heard anything about cause of death. Perhaps she plainly thought he died in action and mentioned that to Monson. My point is, there are tons of possibilities to explain how this could have all happened, the least of which would incriminate Monson as some sort of liar as people here are suggesting.

and then (either way) he picked up street gossip that kid had gone down with the Lexington TWO YEARS EARLIER, and so put that into this 1969 talk instead of what really happened?


Look. I don't' know how that got in there, or in his head. Perhaps he had him mixed up with someone else mentioning his death in '69. I just don't think the major cynicism here to paint him as a liar.

I'm sticking to my point made earlier: "[Monson's] faith promoting talks should carry a health warning along the lines of "Caution: this talk is intended to make you feel good. It is a faith supplement only, and may not contain actual facts"."


It was his personal story to tell. He obviously didn't know or was confused about some details but those details weren't the point of his story. This is called making mountains out of molehills.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Chap »

... Another post from stemelbow explaining how you can always find a possible (even if not necessarily probable) explanation for pretty well any kind of apparent misbehavior by people held in respect by the CoJCoLDS, if only you try hard enough.

If there is a Last Judgement, I hope that I shall look up and see stemelbow on the throne as an angel hands him my case file.

But meanwhile, as I said, I stick to this:

"[Monson's] faith promoting talks should carry a health warning along the lines of "Caution: this talk is intended to make you feel good. It is a faith supplement only, and may not contain actual facts"."

At least stemelbow will forgive me for saying that.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by just me »

Chap wrote:

But meanwhile, as I said, I stick to this:

"[Monson's] faith promoting talks should carry a health warning along the lines of "Caution: this talk is intended to make you feel good. It is a faith supplement only, and may not contain actual facts"."


I think that is a fair takeaway. The stories told in General Conference are really only told to promote faith, not facts.

It was nice of Thomas to leave out the belief that her son is in Spirit Prison until his Mormon ordinances are completed and accepted. That might not have been very comforting.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by jon »

just me wrote:
stemelbow wrote: Perhaps the records kept on the boat are wrong.


I think you have alluded to records being wrong a few times on this thread. Do you have a reason for thinking that the records are wrong? What do you think is wrong about the records?


Stem, across the two accounts, what word most accurately describes the amount of what Monson states as fact is actually false?
None...Some...Half...Most...

What percentage of errant facts would it need to be for you to stop trying to lay possible blame at the door of anyone and everyone else and just accept that Monson told a complete fabrication of a tale he only knew scant details about, but in which he comes off as being Gods instrument in 'rescuing' a widow?
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Nevo »

jon wrote:Monson told a complete fabrication of a tale he only knew scant details about, but in which he comes off as being Gods instrument in 'rescuing' a widow

Good grief. After all of the information that has been brought forward in this thread, you're still claiming the story is a fabrication? The story checks out in just about every possible way.

Obviously, President Monson didn't know the details of Arthur's death (nobody does). He believed—as Arthur's mother apparently did—that Arthur was lost at sea. And in the initial telling of the story he didn't know all the details of Arthur's deployment. He thought Arthur was on one aircraft carrier (the Lexington) when in fact he was on another (the White Plains). So what? All that shows is that President Monson was either misinformed or remembered incorrectly.

Has President Monson been "outed" on this thread as another Paul H. Dunn? Not at all. At worst, he has been unveiled as someone with merely human (as opposed to superhuman) powers of recall. Big deal.

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by subgenius »

Chap wrote:...."Caution: this talk is intended to make you feel good. It is a faith supplement only, and may not contain actual facts"."

in this context why would a "caution" be necessary?
The contradictions, confusions, or inconsistencies in that type of story are relevant to those who can only give credence to that which can be dissected properly on a wax tray. This is, once again, an example of the fundamental learning disability for the atheist and natural man - that only "facts" are real. Ayn Rand is dead and so is that objectivist tripe, so bid it farewell.
The persistent flaw of the atheist mind is the inability to discern the spiritual, and it is this mental handicap that prevents them passing religion 101. The "truth" is not exclusive to that which is subject to a peer review or that which is tabulated, measured, and boiled-down.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Nomad »

Nevo wrote:
jon wrote:Monson told a complete fabrication of a tale he only knew scant details about, but in which he comes off as being Gods instrument in 'rescuing' a widow

Good grief. After all of the information that has been brought forward in this thread, you're still claiming the story is a fabrication? The story checks out in just about every possible way.

Obviously, President Monson didn't know the details of Arthur's death (nobody does). He believed—as Arthur's mother apparently did—that Arthur was lost at sea. And in the initial telling of the story he didn't know all the details of Arthur's deployment. He thought Arthur was on one aircraft carrier (the Lexington) when in fact he was on another (the White Plains). So what? All that shows is that President Monson was either misinformed or remembered incorrectly.

Has President Monson been "outed" on this thread as another Paul H. Dunn? Not at all. At worst, he has been unveiled as someone with merely human (as opposed to superhuman) powers of recall. Big deal.

This is one of the most amazing and telling threads EVER on this message board. And that's really saying something. Talk about trying to make something out of nothing.

This place is just one smear attempt after another.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by Buffalo »

Nomad wrote:This is one of the most amazing and telling threads EVER on this message board. And that's really saying something. Talk about trying to make something out of nothing.

This place is just one smear attempt after another.


Will, can you find anything disagreeable about this disclaimer for General Conference talks?

"Caution: this talk is intended to make you feel good. It is a faith supplement only, and may not contain actual facts"
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by jon »

Nevo wrote:
Obviously, President Monson didn't know the details of Arthur's death (nobody does).


He stated "Arthur died quickly".

In your post that I've quoted you show that you acknowledge that it was a disingenuous statement.
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.
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