Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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jon
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Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by jon »

Who was Arthur Patton? Did he live and die like Thomas S. Monson has claimed? . . .

"1969 version of the story [ http://LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnex ... &hideNav=1]

"2007 version of the same [ http://www.josephsmith.net/ldsorg/v/ind ... 82620aRCRD ]

Now, it is apparent that a poster on a different board has researched Arthur Patton. There is no record of him existing. There is no record of him dying in World War II. In the very specific (but totally different) versions of Arthur's demise, has Thomas S Monson 'outed' himself as the new Paul H Dunn?

from some comments by a poster:
I actually printed out, about two years ago (?), talks given by Thomas S. Monson about his "boyhood friend" Arthur Patton. The talks were given decades apart and detail the service and death (in WWII)of Arthur Patton on different ships, in different battles, and in different years. And the kicker...in the listing of Utah war dead there is no Arthur Patton (or Patten").


Further, in any search of World War II American casualties, lost at sea or missing in action, there is no Arthur Patton. Given that his mother, according to Thomas, received 'the letter' tells us Arthur must have been officially recorded as a casualty - well, if he existed and if the events transpired as Monson tells us they did...
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by subgenius »

the easy answer to this thread's question.....no, he is not a liar. yipee, the critics have to recycle old material!

http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtop ... sc&start=0

and what a revelation, the inconsequential details from a faith-promoting story may or may not be verifiable and consistent when told decades apart.

The only issue here is whether or not the story is a complete fabrication, for which no evidence has been submitted. The inference by this thread's OP is nefarious and diabolical and speaks more to the ill-conceived motivations of the poster than of any man who seeks to inspire and uplift people.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by jon »

subgenius wrote:and what a revelation, the inconsequential details from a faith-promoting story may or may not be verifiable and consistent when told decades apart.

The only issue here is whether or not the story is a complete fabrication, for which no evidence has been submitted. The inference by this thread's OP is nefarious and diabolical and speaks more to the ill-conceived motivations of the poster than of any man who seeks to inspire and uplift people.

Sub, I'm not seeing any facts in your rebuttal...

How is this different to the things that got Paul H Dunn pushed out?
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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His story on Sunday morning about the temple dedication had Paul H Dunn written all over it.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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I have been unable to find this Arthur Patton after many hours of research. I have looked everywhere I can think of to look and Arthur just doesn't appear in places he should if the story were correct and true.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by jon »

just me wrote:I have been unable to find this Arthur Patton after many hours of research. I have looked everywhere I can think of to look and Arthur just doesn't appear in places he should if the story were correct and true.

I wonder if this is what subgenius meant by an 'inconsequential detail'
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by just me »

Jon, here is my research thus far on these talks.

***DISCLAIMER*** I wrote this back in the Spring. For those coming to this thread for the first time please read the whole thread. More evidence has been uncovered. This post is outdated!***


Mrs. Patton, do you exist?

Many months ago it was brought to my attention that there was a story shared by President Thomas S. Monson that had some contradictions in it. These contradictions were seen because he had talked about the same story many years before. I did some research on the people mentioned in the story to attempt to discover the historical truth.

I was only able to discover the errors and so I share it with you. Perhaps there is someone who can offer an explanation to the contradictory story told in two General Conferences of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The most recent version of this story is titled “Mrs. Patton-The Story Continues,” General Conference, October 2007. [1] The initial story was told in General Conference, April 1969. It was reprinted in the New Era, April 1991, and titled “Mrs. Patton, Arthur Lives.”[2] This story has now been made into a Mormon Message and can be found here: http://LDS.org/church/until-we-meet-aga ... rs.+patton

In this story Monson talks of a childhood friend, Arthur Patton. He gives a physical description and says that Arthur “stood taller than any boy in class.” It is unclear whether Monson was in the same class as Arthur. Monson was born in August 1927 and Arthur is said to have been born about August 1925, a difference of 2 years. Arthur would have been a class or two ahead of Monson. Thomas Monson attended West High School in Salt Lake City, Utah from 1940-1944. The (Spring) 1938 West High Yearbook does not have an Arthur Patton as a student, but that is probably too early.[3] The 1939 and 1940 yearbooks have not yet been scanned onto the schools website. A Classmates.com subscription granted me access to the 1939 and 1940 yearbooks. There is not an Arthur Patton in either of those yearbooks.[4]

The story goes that Arthur joined the Navy in 1940 as a tall 15 year old. The US did not enter in to World War II until December 7, 1941. It seems unlikely, though not impossible, that a 15 year old would feel compelled to enter service in the Navy before the US even entered the war. The letter from Mrs. Patton indicates that he joined at age 15 which would have been anytime between August of 1940 and August of 1941.

There are contradictions between the two stories that were told.

In the first version, “Mrs. Patton, Arthur Lives,” it is claimed that Arthur Patton served on the Lexington and died in the Battle of the Coral Sea on May 8, 1942. The Lexington did sink on that day with as many as 300 lives lost. [5]

The follow up version, “Mrs. Patton, The Story Continues,” gives a different account. It is claimed that Arthur was lost at sea while aboard the USS White Plains at Saipan. A cited letter from Mrs. Patton contains the death date July 5, 1944. The USS White Plains was not in combat during that date. From Wikipedia, “The USS White Plains departed the combat zone on 2 July but, after a week at Eniwetok, returned to the Marianas with her air squadron upgraded to a total of 28 aircraft.” [6]

Clearly Arthur could not have lived both these versions of the story. One or both are false. If he was on the Lexington and died in 1942 then the follow up story along with the letter from Mrs. Patton are false. It does not appear that the second story can be true because the White Plains was not engaged in battle July 5, 1944.

In an effort to find out where US casualties were sustained on July 5, 1944 I have discovered that there were military personnel who died in France on that date. I am not a WWII expert and have not determined what battles were taking place or which branches of the military were involved.

There are lists available to look up the names of those who lost their lives during WWII. Arthur Patton does not show up on those lists. I have searched on a WWII casualty list through the National Archives as well as Ancestry.com and found an absence of the name Arthur Patton. [7] In fact, there is no Arthur Patton of Utah found in the WWII enlistment records searchable through Ancestry.com or Footnote.com. The WWII U.S. Navy Muster Rolls, 1939-1949 database on Ancestry.com does not contain an Arthur Patton. I found two “Patten” men from Utah who enlisted in 1944, neither one named Arthur.

What about the mother? Terese Patton of Pomona, California should be found somewhere. I did find a Terese Patton on the Social Security Death Index and the California Death Index, though not living in Pomona. She matches a Terese Patton on the 1930 US Federal Census for Chicago, IL that has a son Arthur Patton with the right birth month and year along with 3 other children. This Terese lost her husband on December 8, 1941 in Chicago, Illinois, the day after Pearl Harbor was attacked, and her 4 children are still living according to one Ancestry.com public family tree.[8] It does not appear that this family lived in Utah any time prior to his death where she could have been a widow working as a cleaning woman. However, Terese's social security card was isued in Utah prior to 1951.

Monson describes Mrs. Patton as grey haired and shoulders “stooped from age.” That is not what most would expect of a description of a woman in her mid-forties.

This Terese Patton certainly does not fit all of the criteria.

The 1940 US Federal Census would perhaps give us more definitive answers as there would have to be a "Patton" family living in the Monson neighborhood for the story to work. However, we must wait several more months before that can be consulted.

One idea that I had was that maybe Monson changed the names to protect the family. This cannot be the case, however, since the mother is claimed to have miraculously attended a viewing of the conference with friends, recognized the story and wrote a response letter. Because the details of the ship and death were wrong in the first version the only other way Terese Patton would have been able to recognize the story as her own would have been the names.

In conclusion, the faith building story about Thomas Monson coming to the spiritual aid of a grieving widow named Terese Patton is not true as it has been given in General Conference. There was not a boy named Arthur Patton from Utah who was enlisted in WWII or a casualty of it according to the databases I've consulted.

Sources:
1. “Mrs. Patton, Arthur Lives” LDS.org. http://LDS.org/new-era/1991/04/mrs-patt ... rs.+patton
2. “Mrs. Patton- The Story Continues” LDS.org. http://LDS.org/general-conference/2007/ ... rs.+patton
3. West High School Yearbooks website. http://west.slcschools.org/alumni/Publi ... rbooks.htm
4. Classmates.com West High School Yearbooks
5. USS Lexington Wiki page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Lexington_(CV-2)#Battle_of_the_Coral_Sea
6. USS White Plains Wiki page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_White_Plains_(CVE-66)#World_War_II
7. Casualty page where “Arthur Patton” of Utah should appear. http://media.nara.gov/media/images/27/32/27-3134a.gif
8. Ancestry.com Public Family Tree. I have not verified information from this family tree.
Last edited by just me on Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by jon »

Just Me,

If I had a hat I would take it off to you...

Does the story of Arthur Patton crop up in Monsons book 'To the Rescue' I wonder...
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by just me »

jon wrote:Just Me,

If I had a hat I would take it off to you...


Awww, you're sweet. *blush*
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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just me wrote:
jon wrote:Just Me,

If I had a hat I would take it off to you...


Awww, you're sweet. *blush*

Well done, "just me". Very interesting.

Just one question: is the word "not" perhaps missing somewhere in the sentence below, as copied from your outstanding post above?

In conclusion, the faith building story about Thomas Monson coming to the spiritual aid of a grieving widow named Terese Patton is true as it has been given in General Conference.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."

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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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Thanks for catching that DrW. I edited that sentence and obviouslyt botched it. Back to fix it.

Does the story of Arthur Patton crop up in Monsons book 'To the Rescue' I wonder...

Good question. Certainly someone here has a copy and can flip through it for us. There is no preview of it on Google Books, sadly.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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just me wrote:I have been unable to find this Arthur Patton after many hours of research.
I have looked everywhere I can think of to look and Arthur just doesn't appear in places he should if the story were correct and true.

http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse. ... |&uidh=000

maybe start here.....down towards the bottom of list
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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subgenius wrote:
just me wrote:I have been unable to find this Arthur Patton after many hours of research.
I have looked everywhere I can think of to look and Arthur just doesn't appear in places he should if the story were correct and true.

http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse. ... |&uidh=000

maybe start here.....down towards the bottom of list


Been there, done that. Did you read my long post?
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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There is a new piece of evidence on Ancestry.com for an Arthur Patton serving from Utah in 1941 with a mother named Teresa Patton.

I will look into that more closely.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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postscript:

inaccurate does not equate to "a lie"
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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just me wrote:There is a new piece of evidence on Ancestry.com for an Arthur Patton serving from Utah in 1941 with a mother named Teresa Patton.

I will look into that more closely.

perhaps it is worth looking into Kenneth Patten from Payson as well, though he may have been a childhood friend, i am sure we are all assuming he was "originally from" Utah? Not to mention the Teresa and Lee Patton family on the 1930 Utah census (son arthur is listed as 5yo)

Personally, i would give more creedence to the suspicions if Thomas S. Monson had suddenly changed the war in which his friend had died. One has to wonder how many people Thomas S. Monson knew that died in that war, and how many stories he heard of others who had died.....it would seem quite reasonable to mix up similar stories, even with similar meaning, over the course of many decades. I would challenge anyone here to "accurately" convey a story they told 4 decades ago, especially if it had details from such a common event.

The evidence so far = Not enough to cast doubt, the inaccuracies have many possible explanations and none of which would reasonably culminate in the accusation of "liar". Only a person who was predisposed to the accusation would consider it meaningful.

But, if i follow correctly, the argument being proposed is, Thomas S. Monson is a liar and therefore all the GA and CoJCoLDS are liars too. It is concluded that Thomas S. Monson must be a liar because of inconsistencies in some details from story told twice with 4 decades passing between each telling..with none of the questionable details being effectively validated by searching on Google. Since it can not be confirmed by an internet search, it must be a fabrication.....an intentional fabrication.

The diabolical First Presidency is likely to change the genealogical record to affirm their version, are they not?
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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just me wrote:Been there, done that. Did you read my long post?

"your" post...really? (interesting colloquialism for "cut/paste")

so what has come of this?

The 1940 US Federal Census would perhaps give us more definitive answers as there would have to be a "Patton" family living in the Monson neighborhood for the story to work. However, we must wait several more months before that can be consulted.

more definitive answers?

we must wait several months?

whatever do you mean by these two phrases from "your post"
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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Subgenius, I think what you'll find is that the purpose of the thread is to discuss whether Thomas S Monson told lies in his recounting of the story of one Arthur Patton who he said died in World War II.

If Arthur Patton didn't die in World War II would you accept that Thomas S Monson lied?
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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subgenius wrote:
just me wrote:
Been there, done that. Did you read my long post?

"your" post...really? (interesting colloquialism for "cut/paste")

so what has come of this?

The 1940 US Federal Census would perhaps give us more definitive answers as there would have to be a "Patton" family living in the Monson neighborhood for the story to work. However, we must wait several more months before that can be consulted.

more definitive answers?

we must wait several months?

whatever do you mean by these two phrases from "your post"

Are you saying that you do not believe I wrote that post myself? I cut and pasted it over from my Word program.

The 1940 US Census will not be available to the public until around April 2012. One of the first things I plan to look up is Thomas S. Monson and the Patton family. This census would shed more light on the historical truth of the stories told by Thomas S. Monson in General Conference.

by the way, when someone has access to their previous talk I see no reason for it to conflict with their new talk. It is very easy to read what one has said on the topic and copy it over into the new talk. Thomas S. Monson referenced the old talk in his new talk. He went so far as to quote some of it word for word. He also referenced a letter from the mother which conflicted with the BOTH stories he gave. He needs to fire his fact checker.
Last edited by just me on Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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subgenius wrote:
just me wrote:There is a new piece of evidence on Ancestry.com for an Arthur Patton serving from Utah in 1941 with a mother named Teresa Patton.

I will look into that more closely.

perhaps it is worth looking into Kenneth Patten from Payson as well, though he may have been a childhood friend, i am sure we are all assuming he was "originally from" Utah?


I am not assuming that Arthur would have been born in Utah. The story claims that he was a "childhood friend" of Monson which means he would have to live in Salt Lake prior to serving. Based on the story his enlistment would have to be in Salt Lake and he would need to have at least some schooling in Utah. Based on the story Monson watched the mother walk to and from work which leads one to believe they lived on the same street or in the same block/neighborhood.

Not to mention the Teresa and Lee Patton family on the 1930 Utah census (son arthur is listed as 5yo)


This family lived in Chicago, Illinois on the census records I am looking at. Is there a similarly named family also living in Utah? If so, please cite me the census record information (city, page, etc) so I can take a look at it.

Personally, i would give more creedence to the suspicions if Thomas S. Monson had suddenly changed the war in which his friend had died. One has to wonder how many people Thomas S. Monson knew that died in that war, and how many stories he heard of others who had died.....it would seem quite reasonable to mix up similar stories, even with similar meaning, over the course of many decades.
I would challenge anyone here to "accurately" convey a story they told 4 decades ago, especially if it had details from such a common event.


I guess different battles is ok, just not different wars. Ok. He had access to his old talk. He also had access to the mother of the dead friend. He also has access to the best genealogists one could ever hope for. I'm sure he could also get a fact checker just by asking.
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by jon »

Then, he said, "I learned that something akin to a miracle had taken place." LDS neighbors of Mrs. Terese Patton in California invited her to their home to listen to a session of that April 1969 general conference. "She accepted their invitation and thus was listening to the very session where I directed my remarks to her personally."


1969?
Just for clarification, were you able to view sessions of conference in your home in 1969?
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