MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

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ScottLloyd
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

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TAK wrote:
ScottLloyd
But I don't work for the Church.


Oh Please ..
Unless you have lost your job - you write ChurchNews for Deseret News..
a private LDS enterprise.

It's a commercial enterprise supported by its own earnings in the marketplace. Being a church member or an active church member is not a condition for employment at the Deseret News.

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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

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ScottLloyd wrote:To paraphrase a verse from Proverbs, As cold waters to a thirsty soul, so is an instance of common sense on this thread.


You know, the more you post here, the more I understand the comparisons with DCP. Try striking up a tune of your own.
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Post by Trevor »

ScottLloyd wrote:It's a commercial enterprise supported by its own earnings in the marketplace. Being a church member or an active church member is not a condition for employment at the Deseret News.


Out of curiosity, how many non-LDS people write for Church News?
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Post by ScottLloyd »

Trevor wrote:
ScottLloyd wrote:To paraphrase a verse from Proverbs, As cold waters to a thirsty soul, so is an instance of common sense on this thread.


You know, the more you post here, the more I understand the comparisons with DCP. Try striking up a tune of your own.

Am I supposed to be ashamed of being compared to Professor Peterson?

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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

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ScottLloyd wrote:Am I supposed to be ashamed of being compared to Professor Peterson?


Did I say you were?
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Post by ScottLloyd »

Trevor wrote:
ScottLloyd wrote:Am I supposed to be ashamed of being compared to Professor Peterson?


Did I say you were?

It was implied when you demanded I "strike up a tune of [my] own."

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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

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ScottLloyd wrote:It was implied when you demanded I "strike up a tune of [my] own."


Actually, it was not.
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Post by ScottLloyd »

Trevor wrote:
ScottLloyd wrote:It's a commercial enterprise supported by its own earnings in the marketplace. Being a church member or an active church member is not a condition for employment at the Deseret News.


Out of curiosity, how many non-LDS people write for Church News?

None. I said Deseret News.

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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

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The approach of the authors, as expressed in the preface and elsewhere, was not to argue with past conclusions about the massacre, but rather, to take a fresh look at the research and go where it took them. That is why your supposition about this being an "apologetic" work is so far off the mark.

Since the authors did not set out to debate anybody, or to refute anyone's theory about Brigham Young being the instigator, it is a natural course that they would deal with the events roughly in chronological order. Since this has evolved into a two-volume project, that logically leaves the cairn incident to volume 2, which is devoted to discussion of events following the massacre.


What does this have to do with whether or not the authors addressed BY's attitude towards the massacre?

Incidentally, I don't concede the accuracy of your rendition above of the alleged "coverup and and lack of church censorship [sic] of the known murderers." But I too eagerly await volume 2 and expect it will be enlightening. Of course, you have the reading of volume 1 before you, which you have yet to do despite having plenty to say on the subject.


I have said nothing about the content of the book, other than to ask questions of those who have read the book.

So, since there is no volume 2 to read yet, we can discuss the cover-up and why you apparently do not believe it occurred. Do you believe BY was not able to immediately discover the names of those involved, were he to desire those names?
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Post by Trevor »

ScottLloyd wrote:None. I said Deseret News.


I read what you wrote. I asked about the Church News. You answered my question. Thanks.
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

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ScottLloyd wrote:None. I said Deseret News.


So Churchnews is a Deseret News publication and all of the staff for that publication (Churchnews) is LDS?
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Post by ScottLloyd »

beastie wrote:
The approach of the authors, as expressed in the preface and elsewhere, was not to argue with past conclusions about the massacre, but rather, to take a fresh look at the research and go where it took them. That is why your supposition about this being an "apologetic" work is so far off the mark.

Since the authors did not set out to debate anybody, or to refute anyone's theory about Brigham Young being the instigator, it is a natural course that they would deal with the events roughly in chronological order. Since this has evolved into a two-volume project, that logically leaves the cairn incident to volume 2, which is devoted to discussion of events following the massacre.



What does this have to do with whether or not the authors addressed BY's attitude towards the massacre?


Since President Young did not learn the facts until later, that would be material for the second volume.

Incidentally, I don't concede the accuracy of your rendition above of the alleged "coverup and and lack of church censorship [sic] of the known murderers." But I too eagerly await volume 2 and expect it will be enlightening. Of course, you have the reading of volume 1 before you, which you have yet to do despite having plenty to say on the subject.


I have said nothing about the content of the book, other than to ask questions of those who have read the book.

So, since there is no volume 2 to read yet, we can discuss the cover-up and why you apparently do not believe it occurred. Do you believe BY was not able to immediately discover the names of those involved, were he to desire those names?


I believe there was a cover-up on a local level that hindered President Young and others from learning about it. The authors of the new book say he learned about it "incrementally."

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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Post by ScottLloyd »

TAK wrote:
ScottLloyd wrote:None. I said Deseret News.


So Churchnews is a Deseret News publication and all of the staff for that publication (Churchnews) is LDS?

TAK, I've grown bored with this line of questioning. I'm still feeling my way here, and I don't know what the rules/attitude are about derailment of threads, but I do have my own standards.

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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Post by beastie »

Since President Young did not learn the facts until later, that would be material for the second volume.


So BY's attitude towards the massacre is not discussed at all in the first volume? Ok.

I believe there was a cover-up on a local level that hindered President Young and others from learning about it. The authors of the new book say he learned about it "incrementally."


Wait, so they DID discuss BY finding out about the massacre after the fact? That seems a contradiction.

So you believe BY would not have been able to uncover the names of the participants if he had so wanted to do so? That seems quite contradictory to everything I've read about BY's leadership.
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

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So BY's attitude towards the massacre is not discussed at all in the first volume? Ok.

I believe there was a cover-up on a local level that hindered President Young and others from learning about it. The authors of the new book say he learned about it "incrementally."


Wait, so they DID discuss BY finding out about the massacre after the fact? That seems a contradiction.


It's not a contradiction. Saying that he learned about it incrementally is not the same as saying the book goes into depth about his attitude regarding it.

So you believe BY would not have been able to uncover the names of the participants if he had so wanted to do so? That seems quite contradictory to everything I've read about BY's leadership.


I'm not accountable for your sources of information or your perceptions.

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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Post by LifeOnaPlate »

beastie wrote:So you believe BY would not have been able to uncover the names of the participants if he had so wanted to do so? That seems quite contradictory to everything I've read about BY's leadership.


What have you read about BY's leadership? Specific titles and authors preferred.
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Post by TAK »

ScottLloyd
So Churchnews is a Deseret News publication and all of the staff for that publication (Churchnews) is LDS?

TAK, I've grown bored with this line of questioning. I'm still feeling my way here, and I don't know what the rules/attitude are about derailment of threads, but I do have my own standards.


I will assume that's a yes..
God has the right to create and to destroy, to make like and to kill. He can delegate this authority if he wishes to. I know that can be scary. Deal with it.
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Post by beastie »

It's not a contradiction. Saying that he learned about it incrementally is not the same as saying the book goes into depth about his attitude regarding it.


But you and DCP claimed that the authors could not possibly mention his statement about the Lord's vengeance because it was out of chronological order, and it would be jarring. Yet now you are saying that the authors actually did mention information that was out of chronological order, and the book survived. Imagine. by the way, one statement about the Lord's vengeance isn't "going into depth about his attitude regarding it", any more than mentioning his incremental discovery of the facts is "going into depth" about the subsequent cover-up.

I'm not accountable for your sources of information or your perceptions.


Of course you aren't. It's just amazing, though, that so many people in the area knew exactly who the killers were, and yet not one of these faithful Mormons would have provided that information to the man that they regarded as the prophet of the Lord, if asked.

What have you read about BY's leadership? Specific titles and authors preferred.


Off the top of my head, I've read Lion of the Lord, The Mormon Conflict (which deals quite a bit with BY's leadership), and the Quinn Hierarchy books. Aside from those texts that deal specifically with BY's leadership, he's been mentioned quite a bit in other books I've read regarding Mormon history. If you'd like a list of every single title I've ever read regarding early church history, that will take a while.

Tell me, by your estimation, do you agree with Scott Lloyd that not a single member in the area who knew exactly who was involved in the massacre would have revealed that information to the prophet of the Lord, if requested? What titles have you read that have led you to the conclusion that BY invoked so little respect among believing members, that they would hide such significant information from him, were he to seek that information from them?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Post by ScottLloyd »

TAK wrote:ScottLloyd
So Churchnews is a Deseret News publication and all of the staff for that publication (Churchnews) is LDS?

TAK, I've grown bored with this line of questioning. I'm still feeling my way here, and I don't know what the rules/attitude are about derailment of threads, but I do have my own standards.


I will assume that's a yes..

That had already been asked and answered. Hence, my boredom.

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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Post by LifeOnaPlate »

beastie wrote:Off the top of my head, I've read Lion of the Lord, The Mormon Conflict (which deals quite a bit with BY's leadership), and the Quinn Hierarchy books. Aside from those texts that deal specifically with BY's leadership, he's been mentioned quite a bit in other books I've read regarding Mormon history. If you'd like a list of every single title I've ever read regarding early church history, that will take a while.


I was hoping to see some specific works on Young (are you talking about Lion of the Lord by Stanley P. Hirshson?) Arrington's American Moses would be a very good start. If you think believe all of the Utah Territory and Church members did whatever Brigham Young told them to do, or were always honest with him you have some more reading to do. ;)

Tell me, by your estimation, do you agree with Scott Lloyd that not a single member in the area who knew exactly who was involved in the massacre would have revealed that information to the prophet of the Lord, if requested? What titles have you read that have led you to the conclusion that BY invoked so little respect among believing members, that they would hide such significant information from him, were he to seek that information from them?


I think the people who really knew what happened swore not to tell. I don't think many people really knew what had happened, and those that did were sworn to secrecy. Things seem to be easier to evaluate looking back on it, but I would argue that at the time there were all sorts of stories circulating about the massacre, why it happened, etc. I see too many people here looking for soundbite answers to historical questions that would take much more time than I am willing to invest for their benefit on this subject.

To be specific, I have no doubt that certain people could lie to Brigham Young, yes.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Post by beastie »

I was hoping to see some specific works on Young (are you talking about Lion of the Lord by Stanley P. Hirshson?) Arrington's American Moses would be a very good start. If you think believe all of the Utah Territory and Church members did whatever Brigham Young told them to do, or were always honest with him you have some more reading to do. ;)


Oh, you mean specific like "Lion of the Lord: Biography of the Mormon Leader Brigham Young"? And have you read Mormon Conflict, and can thereby judge that it didn't deal quite a bit with Brigham Young's leadership style? And Quinn's books don't deal with Young's leadership style? Are you actually saying that unless I read Arrington's book, nothing else counts? Wow.

I certainly do not believe that "all of the Utah Territory and the Church members did whatever BY told them to do, or were always honest with him." What a bizarre suggestion, completely unrelated to what I actually said. But I will try to parse it out for you:

There were many members in the area who knew exactly who the killers were. Many of these members actually refused to have anything to do with the killing. Many of these members were active, faithful Mormons before and after the massacre. What you are suggesting is that not a single one of these faithful members would have shared that information with BY, had he requested it. I find that quite an extraordinary claim. So, again, what have you read that suggested that BY invoked so little respect among so many faithful members, that not a single member would have provided this information to BY, had he requested it? I seriously doubt Arrington's book made such a suggestion. (by the way, I may have read Arrington's book but didn't recall with 100% certainty, so didn't offer it)

I think the people who really knew what happened swore not to tell. I don't think many people really knew what had happened, and those that did were sworn to secrecy. Things seem to be easier to evaluate looking back on it, but I would argue that at the time there were all sorts of stories circulating about the massacre, why it happened, etc. I see too many people here looking for soundbite answers to historical questions that would take much more time than I am willing to invest for their benefit on this subject.

To be specific, I have no doubt that certain people could lie to Brigham Young, yes.


Well, I have no doubt that certain people could lie to BY either. But that's not what your scenario requires. It requires that not a single member - out of all the members in the area who knew who the killers were, even if they refused to be involved - would share that information with the prophet of the Lord, if so requested. Again, that is an extraordinary claim. Just what did you read in Arrington's book that suggested such a wide-spread disrespect for the prophet of God?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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