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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:31 pm
by Daniel Peterson
Beastie, I think we're talking past one another.

But, truthfully, I just don't care much at the moment.

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:00 pm
by Trevor
Wheat wrote:Your willingness to express yourself in this fashion is admriable in a certain sense. However, I think it is extremly naïve as well _ especially when spoken within the context of this message board. From what I have observed, there is little or no hope of diminishing the level of antipathy between the two parties. Sure, it's one thing to see Millet (and others of like mind) attempting to find *common ground* between Mormons and Evangelicals _ a situation where the differences are mostly at the doctrinal level. But the stakes of the contest between Mormonism and traditional Christianity pale in comparison to that between believing LDS and apostates.


I think you were reading a little too much into my statement. Understanding each other better does not mean joining hands and singing Kumbaya. We can remain in perfect disagreement with each other without sloppy kisses or daggers drawn. It is called civility, and one sometimes observes a certain civility between longtime enemies. Kinda like the gentlemanly behavior between Professor X and Magneto in the X-Men movies. I think this is not unreasonable to long for, if only because it's kinda classy, and it's not exactly like whistling Lennon's "Imagine" to myself.

Wheat wrote:In the eyes of believers, apostates are mostly despicable traitors who will stoop at nothing to discredit their former faith _ even using conciliatory language and tones as they systematically seek to undermine the faith of their former brethren. In the eyes of apostates, believers are deluded fools whose willingness to blind themselves to the *truth* is both worthy of denigration as well as probably threatening to societal progress in general. They are a cancer on the body politic. They must be eradicated. Almost without exception, that is the underlying attitude of most apostates who participate here.


More's the pity, I say. People simply take themselves all too seriously. You would think we were all omniscient deities, the way we rush to judgment in spite of our collective human ignorance.

Wheat wrote:So it is a battle to the death, as it were.

I personally wouldn't have it any other way. In the long run _ for believers _ there is no way to accommodate the apostate in the Kingdom of God. And for apostates, there is no way to accommodate the Kingdom of God in their world.


I think I'll sit out your battle-to-the-death fantasy. Thanks, but no thanks. I prefer extending the hand of friendship to extending the knife of maiming and death.

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:27 pm
by harmony
Wheat wrote: They are a cancer on the body politic. They must be eradicated. Almost without exception, that is the underlying attitude of most apostates who participate here.

So it is a battle to the death, as it were.

I personally wouldn't have it any other way. In the long run _ for believers _ there is no way to accommodate the apostate in the Kingdom of God. And for apostates, there is no way to accommodate the Kingdom of God in their world.


This is not a post that an active LDS would ever make. Wheat, I am ashamed of you.

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:42 am
by ScottLloyd
Hello everyone.

This is "that DCP wannabe suckup, Scott Lloyd." (Yes, Boaz & Lidia, I enjoyed that. So much so, that I put it in my sig line over on MADB.)

I've registered here just so I could come on this thread and do my bit to boost your post count.

You see, it is amazing to me that a thread could be sustained for 30 pages based on criticism of a book that almost none of the critics on the thread has read or even seen. An astounding feat. A true inspiration. Thirty pages of discussion about nothing. I'm thinking even Jerry Seinfeld might be impressed. Although, I've noticed Beastie, for one, has taken to repeating posts. But hey, whatever works, right?

As most of you probably know, we have a thread going over on MADB about the new book, where there's some discussion about the actual content of the book (as opposed to ill-informed ruminations about the motives, intent and competence of the authors). Up to now, we've only managed 27 pages. I think we've outdone you on views (more than 8,000 so far). But I know that at least some of you are upping our count by lurking over there without posting.

So I say bravo. I may come back from time to time, although probably very infrequently. I'm not as adept as some here at posting about nothing.

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:47 am
by Trevor
ScottLloyd wrote:You see, it is amazing to me that a thread could be sustained for 30 pages based on criticism of a book that almost none of the critics has read or even seen. An astounding feat. A true inspiration. Thirty pages of discussion about nothing. I'm thinking even Jerry Seinfeld might be impressed. Although, I've noticed Beastie, for one, has taken to repeating posts. But hey, whatever works, right?


Did you take a poll of "critics" or do you just assume that they are all represented by the participants in this thread? And, yes, your humor is sub-Peterson at best.

Nevertheless, welcome. Quite a snotty entrance, but welcome anyway.

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:55 am
by ScottLloyd
When I said critics, I meant the critics on this particular thread.

Sorry that was less than clear. I've now added a clarifying phrase.

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:05 am
by ScottLloyd
Trevor wrote: And, yes, your humor is sub-Peterson at best.

I readily acknowledge that few can match the good doctor in deft and pungent wit. But that's not one of my principal goals in life.

Thanks for the welcome.

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:16 am
by antishock8
And in true Internet Mormon fashion, the topic is ignored and it's straight into the non sequitur. Bravo. Bravo.

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:05 pm
by harmony
ScottLloyd wrote:Hello everyone.

This is "that DCP wannabe suckup, Scott Lloyd." (Yes, Boaz & Lidia, I enjoyed that. So much so, that I put it in my sig line over on MADB.)

I've registered here just so I could come on this thread and do my bit to boost your post count.

You see, it is amazing to me that a thread could be sustained for 30 pages based on criticism of a book that almost none of the critics on the thread has read or even seen. An astounding feat. A true inspiration. Thirty pages of discussion about nothing. I'm thinking even Jerry Seinfeld might be impressed. Although, I've noticed Beastie, for one, has taken to repeating posts. But hey, whatever works, right?

As most of you probably know, we have a thread going over on MADB about the new book, where there's some discussion about the actual content of the book (as opposed to ill-informed ruminations about the motives, intent and competence of the authors). Up to now, we've only managed 27 pages. I think we've outdone you on views (more than 8,000 so far). But I know that at least some of you are upping our count by lurking over there without posting.

So I say bravo. I may come back from time to time, although probably very infrequently. I'm not as adept as some here at posting about nothing.


Good day to you, Scott. Do you have anything to say about:

1. the church's conflict of interest?
2. the church's historical treatment of both historians and church history?
3. the closed nature of the church's archives... closed to nonLDS historians who may not be interested in furthering a faithful church history?

If you have no comment on those topics, you might want to understand that those issues are likely to cast the content of the book into the shade. So discussion of them is entirely appropriate.

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:31 pm
by beastie
Yes, it is true that I repeated certain posts in the vain hope that the defenders of the faith who cluttered this thread with frequent inane comments, and nearly doubled its size by repeated comments on its length would actually address the substance of the thread. It usually didn't work. But I'll try to repeat something of substance for Scott, since he clearly is so interested in substance. ;)

Loap
Even if it is granted that BY saw the massacre as part of the Lord's taking vengeance it does not follow that thus Brigham ordered the massacre, or that given what he knew at the time he wasn't making a statement based on what he believed happened and why, but was wrong. I suspect that is something with which you agree.


beastie
Yes, I agree it does not necessarily mean that he ordered the massacre, but the fact that he somehow saw the hand of God in it means that praying for one's enemies is not incompatible with involvement with the massacre.

Does the new book discuss BY's statement about the Lord taking a little vengeance with the massacre? I understand that, chronologically speaking, it ends with the massacre itself, but it seems a serious omission to not address this when dealing with BY's possible involvement.


I am very curious about this point, and since my book hasn't been delivered yet, can only ask those who have read the book. Does the book deal with BY's comments at the destruction of the make-shift altar or not? In my amazon search of the book, it does not appear to, but I'd like someone who read it to verify this. I find it incomprehensible that authors would be seriously addressing BY's possible involvement and completely ignore a well-established event that sheds quite a bit of light on how BY viewed the massacre itself - as part of the Lord's vengeance. How could this be legitimately ignored?

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:40 pm
by Dr. Shades
ScottLloyd wrote:I've registered here just so I could come on this thread and do my bit to boost your post count. . . I think we've outdone you on views (more than 8,000 so far). But I know that at least some of you are upping our count by lurking over there without posting.


Why the obsession with views and post counts? Do they matter in any way, shape, or form?

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:54 pm
by Mister Scratch
Well, well, well. What a real pleasure it is to see Scotty Dog Lloyd turn up on this thread! I guess he has finally summoned up enough courage to leave the safe, cozy confines of the aptly named MADboard. And of course he would turn up on this thread. Good ol' Scotty Dog, after all, is the poster who was once described as being a "boob" about LDS history. He also (allegedly) has a track record of producing appallingly whitewashed articles on Church history for the Deseret News and whatnot.

So, why is he here, then? To make a wisecrack? Could be. I submit, however, that the real reason lies in his deep anxieties concerning Church history. Discussions on the suppression of Church history make the veins stand out in his neck, making him look even more like Morton Downey, Jr. So, of course he is here. Of course he is posting on this thread. And, most importantly, of course he is completely overlooking and avoiding this primary topic of discussion.

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:08 pm
by Nightingale
Shades:
"Why the obsession with views and post counts? Do they matter in any way, shape, or form?"

I think it could be because of DCP mentioning the length of this thread a few times. (So we've established, apparently, that length does matter?) :)

Aside from that, as I've said, I think there are plenty of issues to discuss apart from the actual content of the book, as above (and above and above and ...). So that criticism, while I understand the point, is a trifle over-emphasized.

This makes it, in my view, not a thread about nothing. But Mr. Lloyd's reference to Seinfeld is pretty darn funny anyway. That could render him at least an understudy to his ironically witty role model. So there's hope.

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:29 pm
by Daniel Peterson
antishock8 wrote:And in true Internet Mormon fashion, the topic is ignored and it's straight into the non sequitur. Bravo. Bravo.

The topic of talking about the authors of the book and their various authorial liabilities without having seen the book that they authored?

harmony wrote:those issues are likely to cast the content of the book into the shade.

They certainly have here on the Shades board.

beastie wrote:my book hasn't been delivered yet

Thirty-one pages, and still no sight of the book. Simply mind-boggling.

Mister Scratch wrote:Well, well, well. What a real pleasure it is to see Scotty Dog Lloyd turn up on this thread! I guess he has finally summoned up enough courage to leave the safe, cozy confines of the aptly named MADboard. And of course he would turn up on this thread. Good ol' Scotty Dog, after all, is the poster who was once described as being a "boob" about LDS history. He also (allegedly) has a track record of producing appallingly whitewashed articles on Church history for the Deseret News and whatnot.

So, why is he here, then? To make a wisecrack? Could be. I submit, however, that the real reason lies in his deep anxieties concerning Church history. Discussions on the suppression of Church history make the veins stand out in his neck, making him look even more like Morton Downey, Jr. So, of course he is here. Of course he is posting on this thread. And, most importantly, of course he is completely overlooking and avoiding this primary topic of discussion.

A thread without substance? An opportunity for personal sneers, instead? Naturally, Master Scartch finds it irresistible.

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:30 pm
by harmony
Remember, guys: size matters. Except the size of the LDS church compared to the Catholic Church... then size doesn't matter.

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:58 pm
by beastie
What's really funny is that if all the inane comments about the size of the thread were deleted, the size would probably be reduced by a good third.

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:16 pm
by beastie
I wonder if the MADdites who are criticizing this thread (largely without reading it) would concede that the church does have a conflict of interest with this issue, and certain of its still powerful and influential leaders have had a "problematic" relationship with past historians, and these facts add up to undermined confidence in the work, particularly when other researchers do not have access to the same material.

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:20 pm
by harmony
beastie wrote:I wonder if the MADdites who are criticizing this thread (largely without reading it) would concede that the church does have a conflict of interest with this issue, and certain of its still powerful and influential leaders have had a "problematic" relationship with past historians, and these facts add up to undermined confidence in the work, particularly when other researchers do not have access to the same material.


Surely you jest. You see how quickly Bro Lloyd left the building. I'd take that as an indicator of the ability of our MAD friends to discuss the problems with the process under which the book was created.

And I certainly would like to know which apostles approved it and how many edits they required before it was allowed to pass to the publisher.

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:09 pm
by beastie
Surely you jest. You see how quickly Bro Lloyd left the building. I'd take that as an indicator of the ability of our MAD friends to discuss the problems with the process under which the book was created.

And I certainly would like to know which apostles approved it and how many edits they required before it was allowed to pass to the publisher.


I imagine it was apostles with a particular interest in church history, not unlike Bros Packer and Oaks.

For those curious as to how this thread got to be so long, a good example of what turns threads into lengthy monsters is going on on the MAD thread as we speak. Theo made the statement that church members were taught that the victims "had it coming". Pahoran issued a CRF. In response, Theo shared this:

From "Facing the truth of Mountain Meadows," by Robert Kirby, a SL Tribune columnist's 09/07/2007 column we read the following:

QUOTE
My church raised me on the saintliness of my Mormon pioneer ancestors, an honest folk persecuted for no reason other than that we were God's favorites. Satan raged against us because we had The Truth.

I heard all the faith-promoting stories about Haun's Mill, Carthage Jail and Nauvoo, Ill. We were whipped, burned out, murdered, robbed and stripped of our civil rights. The U.S. sent an army against us. All of this proved we had The Truth, right?

Unfortunately, such a one-sided view of our history presented a problem when I finally learned that in 1857, Mormons (including my great-grandfather) slaughtered 120 defenseless men, women and children at Mountain Meadows.

As unforgivable as that was, just as troubling to me were our subsequent efforts to dodge The Truth, to cover it up, to water it down, to pretend that it never happened or, worse, to blame it on others.

I heard all the self-serving explanations for Mountain Meadows, ranging from the deliberately obfuscating to the patently ludicrous: "Indians did it." "The immigrants had it coming." "We only shot them a little."

Historians, notably the inestimable Juanita Brooks, who tried to bring the facts of the massacre to light, were ostracized by fellow Mormons and even threatened by church leaders. We couldn't, it seemed, handle The Truth about ourselves."


Even the LDS owned and managed Deseret Morning News has carried such comments.
http://deseretnews.com/user/comments/1, ... 45,00.html
In the comments following the July 19, 2008 article “Book confronts LDS Tragedy,” we read the following from Ed 5:26 a.m. July 19, 2008:
QUOTE
"As a foreign born missionary called to serve in California, I remember how shocked I was after learning for the first time of this tragedy [the Mountain Meadows Massacre] from my companion from Southern Utah. What I also felt was tragic was the line he took of “They had it coming”. He would have pulled the trigger too and followed the line of authority as he saw it. Very sad. The top leadership of the Church may not have been involved before the massacre but logic says they must have got involved with “protection” afterwards with only one person being punished.


Even FAIR reports this:
http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences ... sacre.html
2003 FAIR Conference presentation by Gene Sessions
QUOTE
"It's an awful story, you can't put a smilie face on it. This was cold-blooded murder of innocent people. Occasionally someone will come up to me and say, 'Well don't you think they deserved it?' And, no I don't think they deserved it. I don't care how many of the stories you believe about whatever the immigrants did to get killed, nothing they did came anywhere close to justifying the murder of little children and the oldest child saved was six-years and 11 months old."


If a FAIR speaker reports that ocasionally he hears this belief, and it even appears in the Deseret News, I must wonder how Pahoran missed out.

I don't know if the "they had it coming" belief was ever cannonized into LDS teaching manuals, but I'm quite sure it was preached in talks in church, in lessons given in church, and in fireside chats.


The response? This doesn't count as evidence it was "taught" in church. So now there will be lengthy back and forths over whether the fact that enough members believed that the victims "had it coming" counts as evidence that some LDS person, somewhere, somehow, taught them that. Or perhaps they just learned it through osmosis.

In other words, tooth-pulling commences. Just as it did on this thread.

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:06 pm
by Daniel Peterson
harmony wrote: I'd take that as an indicator of the ability of our MAD friends to discuss the problems with the process under which the book was created.

And I certainly would like to know which apostles approved it and how many edits they required before it was allowed to pass to the publisher.

Just don't actually read the book. It might scorch your hands.

T. S. Eliot once described Henry James as a man with a "mind so fine that no idea could violate it." For some reason, that phrase keeps recurring to me.

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new Mountain Meadows Massacre book

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:11 pm
by Trevor
ScottLloyd wrote:I readily acknowledge that few can match the good doctor in deft and pungent wit. But that's not one of my principal goals in life.

Thanks for the welcome.


Admittedly, he is a tough act to follow in that regard.