Questions about BYU

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rcrocket

Post by rcrocket »

OUT OF MY MISERY wrote:I will admit I did not read every single post in this thread, but the last caught eye by Rollo having to defend himself to Plutarch...

Rollo is one of my favorite posters and one of the most level headed and informative Mormons one this board..

harmony and liz are as well...

So here is my cheer for Rollo and others CHEER CHEER


I'll join you! Three guffaws!

P

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Post by Rollo Tomasi »

Plutarch wrote:
OUT OF MY MISERY wrote:I will admit I did not read every single post in this thread, but the last caught eye by Rollo having to defend himself to Plutarch .... So here is my cheer for Rollo and others CHEER CHEER

I'll join you! Three guffaws!

Gosh, now you're making me misty....
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-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)

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Post by Mister Scratch »

maklelan wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:Yep. And what's further interesting is that all of the people you named never have anything even remotely critical to say about the Church. They march more or less in lockstep.


And you interpret this to mean what? I interpet it to mean that we all aspire to the same ideals, which we all believe are divinely inspired. You appear to be insinuating that we have criticisms we would like to make, but, for whatever reason, are afraid to make them. Is that accurate?


No, that's not accurate. Liz pointed out that anonymity is a good idea for safety reasons. You responded by saying, "Interestingly, the apologists use their real names!" My response: there is really nothing "interesting" or "surprising" about it. These people don't say anything controversial---i.e., "march in lockstep."

I know that I have prayed and received confirmation about every aspect of the church to which I faithfully adhere, including my mission call, my callings since then, my bishopric changes, my wife, and the decisions we make as a family. Are you saying that I'm lying, that I'm among a minority, or is it something else?


Something else, obviously. I read your earlier post as an attempt to cast the apologist in a morally superior light. Was I wrong about that?

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Post by maklelan »

I wasn't trying to cast them in a superior light, I was just trying to show that there's nothing to be afraid of. Who's got more reason to be concerned, someone arguing with generally ticked off people with a bone to pick, or someone arguing with faithful members of the church? Are people really afraid that their bishops are gonna find out, or that someone is gonna recognize their name and turn them in? I think that's ridiculous. I've never heard of that happening, and I have no clue why anyone from our side would ever do that.
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Post by moksha »

maklelan wrote: Are people really afraid that their bishops are gonna find out, or that someone is gonna recognize their name and turn them in? I think that's ridiculous. I've never heard of that happening, and I have no clue why anyone from our side would ever do that.

We had quite a time of it at Beliefnet when one member from a Branch in England recognized another member and had very uncomplimentary things to say about her and her husband. The threat was made to tell the Bishop. They have both since stopped posting and I think the advice of the Bishop may have had something to do with it.
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Post by harmony »

Are people really afraid that their bishops are gonna find out, or that someone is gonna recognize their name and turn them in? I think that's ridiculous. I've never heard of that happening, and I have no clue why anyone from our side would ever do that.


You don't know LDS apologists very well, do you? I've been personally threatened with church discipline several times. The only thing they needed was my name.

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Post by Runtu »

harmony wrote:
Are people really afraid that their bishops are gonna find out, or that someone is gonna recognize their name and turn them in? I think that's ridiculous. I've never heard of that happening, and I have no clue why anyone from our side would ever do that.


You don't know LDS apologists very well, do you? I've been personally threatened with church discipline several times. The only thing they needed was my name.


Yep. A FAIR poster threatened last year to call my wife and my bishop to let them know what I was up to. Of course, both my wife and my bishop know where I stand, but it was unnerving to think that someone could cause problems for me and my family. It made me a lot more cautious about personal information.
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BYU religion classes

Post by Benjamin McGuire »

I know I am coming a bit late to this conversation (but I finally got around to reregistering).

I always viewed the religion classes (for the most part) as easy credits. They were not difficuly, and attendance seemed like it was usually the biggest issue.

Someone early on mentioned Dana Pike. I think that it should be said that there are different categories of religion teachers. Some are the products of the CES department, some are instructors from other disciplines taking their turn in the religion classes, and some are academics in related fields working at BYU.

Dana Pike, for example, has his Ph.D. in Near Eastern Studies (I think from the Univeristy of Michigan). He was one of the official editing team on the Dead Sea Scrolls. He has some excellent credentials, and I have known him for quite some time. Taking religion classes from him is a completely different experience than the traditional classes (especially if you do some of his graduate level readings classes). David Seeley was another one with a similar background (and his wife Joanne - although I do not know if she teaches there right now). These were very different experiences from the standard set of classes, and involved more critical thinking skills. I also enjoyed my classes with Craig Ostler (Blake's brother) in Church History. The trick I found to getting the most of the religion classes was finding the good instructors. After a couple of days in one of McConkie's classes, I determined never to bother. It simply wasn't what I was interested in.

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Re: BYU religion classes

Post by maklelan »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:I know I am coming a bit late to this conversation (but I finally got around to reregistering).

I always viewed the religion classes (for the most part) as easy credits. They were not difficuly, and attendance seemed like it was usually the biggest issue.

Someone early on mentioned Dana Pike. I think that it should be said that there are different categories of religion teachers. Some are the products of the CES department, some are instructors from other disciplines taking their turn in the religion classes, and some are academics in related fields working at BYU.

Dana Pike, for example, has his Ph.D. in Near Eastern Studies (I think from the Univeristy of Michigan). He was one of the official editing team on the Dead Sea Scrolls. He has some excellent credentials, and I have known him for quite some time. Taking religion classes from him is a completely different experience than the traditional classes (especially if you do some of his graduate level readings classes). David Seeley was another one with a similar background (and his wife Joanne - although I do not know if she teaches there right now). These were very different experiences from the standard set of classes, and involved more critical thinking skills. I also enjoyed my classes with Craig Ostler (Blake's brother) in Church History. The trick I found to getting the most of the religion classes was finding the good instructors. After a couple of days in one of McConkie's classes, I determined never to bother. It simply wasn't what I was interested in.

Ben


I think that's perfectly accurate, and many people avoid McConkie's class. I'm taking an Old TEstament class from David Johnson and the class is all about cultural, historical and doctrinal aspects of the Old Testament. Besides the prayer there's no indication that it's an LDS oriented class.
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Post by maklelan »

Runtu wrote:
harmony wrote:
Are people really afraid that their bishops are gonna find out, or that someone is gonna recognize their name and turn them in? I think that's ridiculous. I've never heard of that happening, and I have no clue why anyone from our side would ever do that.


You don't know LDS apologists very well, do you? I've been personally threatened with church discipline several times. The only thing they needed was my name.


Yep. A FAIR poster threatened last year to call my wife and my bishop to let them know what I was up to. Of course, both my wife and my bishop know where I stand, but it was unnerving to think that someone could cause problems for me and my family. It made me a lot more cautious about personal information.


I think those people are idiots, but I was also unaware that critics of the church like to fly under the radar. Why would someone criticize the church but want to keep participating like nothing's happening and not let anyone know? That completely undermines the point of criticism.
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Post by Mercury »

maklelan wrote:
Runtu wrote:
harmony wrote:
Are people really afraid that their bishops are gonna find out, or that someone is gonna recognize their name and turn them in? I think that's ridiculous. I've never heard of that happening, and I have no clue why anyone from our side would ever do that.


You don't know LDS apologists very well, do you? I've been personally threatened with church discipline several times. The only thing they needed was my name.


Yep. A FAIR poster threatened last year to call my wife and my bishop to let them know what I was up to. Of course, both my wife and my bishop know where I stand, but it was unnerving to think that someone could cause problems for me and my family. It made me a lot more cautious about personal information.


I think those people are idiots, but I was also unaware that critics of the church like to fly under the radar. Why would someone criticize the church but want to keep participating like nothing's happening and not let anyone know? That completely undermines the point of criticism.


This illustrates your ignorance of what it is truly like to have awareness of the fraud of Mormonism and yet socially having to still involve oneself with the cultists.

Most of us cannot truly just walk away from Mormonism. It is entwined into our social structure.
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Post by Mister Scratch »

maklelan wrote:I wasn't trying to cast them in a superior light, I was just trying to show that there's nothing to be afraid of. Who's got more reason to be concerned, someone arguing with generally ticked off people with a bone to pick, or someone arguing with faithful members of the church?


Obviously, it cuts both ways. On the other hand, I am unaware of the antis running anything equivalent to the SCMC and its various espionage operations.

Are people really afraid that their bishops are gonna find out, or that someone is gonna recognize their name and turn them in? I think that's ridiculous. I've never heard of that happening, and I have no clue why anyone from our side would ever do that.


Because people from "your" side are human beings, too.

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Post by maklelan »

VegasRefugee wrote:This illustrates your ignorance of what it is truly like to have awareness of the fraud of Mormonism and yet socially having to still involve oneself with the cultists.

Most of us cannot truly just walk away from Mormonism. It is entwined into our social structure.


So you (an alleged Jew) would rather live a lie than transcend that lie and move on? All for the sake of not disrupting your social status? And I'm supposed to think you understand the world and yourself better than me?
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Post by Runtu »

maklelan wrote:
Runtu wrote:
harmony wrote:
Are people really afraid that their bishops are gonna find out, or that someone is gonna recognize their name and turn them in? I think that's ridiculous. I've never heard of that happening, and I have no clue why anyone from our side would ever do that.


You don't know LDS apologists very well, do you? I've been personally threatened with church discipline several times. The only thing they needed was my name.


Yep. A FAIR poster threatened last year to call my wife and my bishop to let them know what I was up to. Of course, both my wife and my bishop know where I stand, but it was unnerving to think that someone could cause problems for me and my family. It made me a lot more cautious about personal information.


I think those people are idiots, but I was also unaware that critics of the church like to fly under the radar. Why would someone criticize the church but want to keep participating like nothing's happening and not let anyone know? That completely undermines the point of criticism.


That's just it. I wasn't flying under the radar. My name is fairly well known, since I've been around here a long time (I think just about as long as Pahoran has), and my wife is aware of everything I do. But when complete strangers start talking about my family, then I get nervous. Who knows what these people are capable of doing?
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Post by maklelan »

Mister Scratch wrote:On the other hand, I am unaware of the antis running anything equivalent to the SCMC and its various espionage operations.


By all means, please document this accusation.

Mister Scratch wrote:Because people from "your" side are human beings, too.


I'm afraid I can't relate. If I were ever positioned against an organization I wouldn't keep going through the motions afraid of being kicked out. After all, that's what I'm after anyway.
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Post by maklelan »

Runtu wrote:That's just it. I wasn't flying under the radar. My name is fairly well known, since I've been around here a long time (I think just about as long as Pahoran has), and my wife is aware of everything I do. But when complete strangers start talking about my family, then I get nervous. Who knows what these people are capable of doing?


Giving horrible wedding presents and making disgusting funeral potatoes. That's about it. You say that as if LDS people have some kind of secret power over you, or are at least capable of more than any other normal person on the planet.
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Post by Runtu »

maklelan wrote:
Runtu wrote:That's just it. I wasn't flying under the radar. My name is fairly well known, since I've been around here a long time (I think just about as long as Pahoran has), and my wife is aware of everything I do. But when complete strangers start talking about my family, then I get nervous. Who knows what these people are capable of doing?


Giving horrible wedding presents and making disgusting funeral potatoes. That's about it. You say that as if LDS people have some kind of secret power over you, or are at least capable of more than any other normal person on the planet.


Just how do you know this? I've had people threaten me with bodily harm in the past. Are you suggesting that somehow I should just believe that perfect strangers are incapable of harming my family because they're nominally LDS? Color me jaded, but I'm not ready to risk my family's safety on the thought that all Mormons are harmless. When you've had the kind of hatred spewed at you that I have, you can tell me it's OK to let these people near my family.

They're not more or less capable of anything than anyone else. The problem is that you assume that my correspondents were "normal people." I'm not going to assume that.
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Post by maklelan »

Runtu wrote:Just how do you know this? I've had people threaten me with bodily harm in the past. Are you suggesting that somehow I should just believe that perfect strangers are incapable of harming my family because they're nominally LDS? Color me jaded, but I'm not ready to risk my family's safety on the thought that all Mormons are harmless. When you've had the kind of hatred spewed at you that I have, you can tell me it's OK to let these people near my family.


I've been shot at, spit on, kicked out of public places and had several knives pulled on me because of my religion, so I'm not unfamiliar with persecution. I think to suggest that Mormons are unfamiliar with it is a little presumptuous. I generally don't hang around places real or online where I am confronting people like that. I've never seen anything like that on MAD, but people here seem to be surrounded by it. If you really think you're family is in danger then you probably should use a pseudonym, but you know what might work even better if your viewpoints cause such anger? Not coming to places like this, especially if it's just a forum for you to vent. There are better ways to do it.
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Post by harmony »

maklelan wrote:
Runtu wrote:Just how do you know this? I've had people threaten me with bodily harm in the past. Are you suggesting that somehow I should just believe that perfect strangers are incapable of harming my family because they're nominally LDS? Color me jaded, but I'm not ready to risk my family's safety on the thought that all Mormons are harmless. When you've had the kind of hatred spewed at you that I have, you can tell me it's OK to let these people near my family.


I've been shot at, spit on, kicked out of public places and had several knives pulled on me because of my religion, so I'm not unfamiliar with persecution. I think to suggest that Mormons are unfamiliar with it is a little presumptuous. I generally don't hang around places real or online where I am confronting people like that. I've never seen anything like that on MAD, but people here seem to be surrounded by it. If you really think you're family is in danger then you probably should use a pseudonym, but you know what might work even better if your viewpoints cause such anger? Not coming to places like this, especially if it's just a forum for you to vent. There are better ways to do it.


Let's see... I've had a cross burned into my lawn, my daughter's bedroom window shot out by a rifle, 6 months of obscene phone calls, sugar poured into my gas tank, an ice pick used to put holes in my tires. Ask me again what my family and I have endured for this church.

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Post by maklelan »

harmony wrote:
maklelan wrote:
Runtu wrote:Just how do you know this? I've had people threaten me with bodily harm in the past. Are you suggesting that somehow I should just believe that perfect strangers are incapable of harming my family because they're nominally LDS? Color me jaded, but I'm not ready to risk my family's safety on the thought that all Mormons are harmless. When you've had the kind of hatred spewed at you that I have, you can tell me it's OK to let these people near my family.


I've been shot at, spit on, kicked out of public places and had several knives pulled on me because of my religion, so I'm not unfamiliar with persecution. I think to suggest that Mormons are unfamiliar with it is a little presumptuous. I generally don't hang around places real or online where I am confronting people like that. I've never seen anything like that on MAD, but people here seem to be surrounded by it. If you really think you're family is in danger then you probably should use a pseudonym, but you know what might work even better if your viewpoints cause such anger? Not coming to places like this, especially if it's just a forum for you to vent. There are better ways to do it.


Let's see... I've had a cross burned into my lawn, my daughter's bedroom window shot out by a rifle, 6 months of obscene phone calls, sugar poured into my gas tank, an ice pick used to put holes in my tires. Ask me again what my family and I have endured for this church.


Then leave.
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rcrocket

Post by rcrocket »

harmony wrote:
maklelan wrote:Let's see... I've had a cross burned into my lawn, my daughter's bedroom window shot out by a rifle, 6 months of obscene phone calls, sugar poured into my gas tank, an ice pick used to put holes in my tires. Ask me again what my family and I have endured for this church.


Obviously you have not endured to the end. Your posts give more comfort to the enemy than anybody else on this board. You are an effective writer and spinner of anecdotes. You have the time to counter the truth whenever it shows its head. If you had substantive knowledge of the Gospel (I was amused to see you really think that Whitmer's An Address to All Believers in Christ was really an address given someplace) you'd be even more deadly to the building of the Kingdom.

As it is, we are feted with temple content from you (which you carefully couch as questions, rather than statements), challenges to the integrity of the brethren at every turn (every one of them are liars and deceivers), and the like. And, while the lurker pauses and questions, you throw in the repeated refrain that your temple recommend is every bit as good as your challenger, and that who knows, you might be sitting in the temple across the aisle from your challenger. Oh yes, the challenge: Whom are you to judge me? My stake president and bishop know me.

Quite effective.

And why do you do it? One of the oldest sins in the Book. Vanity.

P
Last edited by rcrocket on Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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