BYU being sued for "online" curriculum not being what was paid for

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Shulem
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Re: BYU being sued for "online" curriculum not being what was paid for

Post by Shulem »

Yes, there are going to be a lot of changes and the evolution of technology will take the planet into a new phase. The pandemic is going to force the world to make serious changes in how it operates and worldwide cooperation will be enhanced as humans further evolve and make the necessary adjustment to survive anything and everything short of an asteroid such as wiped out the dinosaurs.

The lawsuit against BYU seems like such waste. The student should cut his losses like the rest of us, move on, and do whatever it takes to make the best of the situation. Everyone is in this together. Just work hard, study hard, get your degree, and put it to use!

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Re: BYU being sued for "online" curriculum not being what was paid for

Post by Meadowchik »

Kishkumen wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:55 am
Meadowchik wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:42 am
It's not just against BYU. There are cases elsewhere and more will likely pop up. Maybe he is just being spiteful, but it's also possible that he feels like he'll need to retake the courses and he will need fees for that.
And if you have an elite private university with a huge endowment that primarily serves the wealthy and is charging $30K+ a year in tuition alone, then, OK, I suppose it is about that. BYU is not that school, even if the Church funding it is super-wealthy.

Unless I am reading this incorrectly, he signed up for the term after the pandemic had started, and he has signed up for Fall too. In other words, he could have opted out of what he perceived to be substandard class experiences, but he decided to keep on. I have very little sympathy for him.
I didn't bother to read this student's specifics. It's the general principle of both sides that I can understand.

He could have signed up for fall hoping classes would be available. Utah numbers were low for a while there.

I prefer to focus my anger on those who are neglecting science and defrauding the taxpayers and governments to wring as much out of this crisis as they can. If by the way that's the case for any student plaintiffs then I hope they don't win.

My uni has handled it valiantly in my opinion.

They scrambled to make remote learning available in March, and personally they gave me extra time to complete my exams because of mitigating circumstances.

For fall semester, they're giving all students the option to study remotely. I am taking it gratefully, for several reasons. It means I won't have to rely on glitchy pandemic bus schedules to make the hourlong journey to school everyday. It also means I'll be able to be home for my kids in the event of quarantining during the year.

It also gives me more valuable study time. So remote learning may work quite well for me. I just know that other learners may have the opposite experience. Maybe litigation is not necessary for them, especially schools making the good faith effort to accommodate. But it might be appropriate in some cases.

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Kishkumen
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Re: BYU being sued for "online" curriculum not being what was paid for

Post by Kishkumen »

I prefer to focus my anger on those who are neglecting science and defrauding the taxpayers and governments to wring as much out of this crisis as they can. If by the way that's the case for any student plaintiffs then I hope they don't win.

My uni has handled it valiantly in my opinion.

They scrambled to make remote learning available in March, and personally they gave me extra time to complete my exams because of mitigating circumstances.

For fall semester, they're giving all students the option to study remotely. I am taking it gratefully, for several reasons. It means I won't have to rely on glitchy pandemic bus schedules to make the hourlong journey to school everyday. It also means I'll be able to be home for my kids in the event of quarantining during the year.

It also gives me more valuable study time. So remote learning may work quite well for me. I just know that other learners may have the opposite experience. Maybe litigation is not necessary for them, especially schools making the good faith effort to accommodate. But it might be appropriate in some cases.
BYU provides a quality education for a reasonable price. I doubt their handling of the unexpected catastrophe was that different from most other universities, including your valiant university. I don’t mistake BYU for church leadership or for Liberty University, the latter of which was the very model of ignoring science and behaving irresponsibly. LDS leadership actually advocated to its members that they follow the science by masking up and practicing social distancing. They did not ignore science and continue to hold meetings throughout the entire pandemic.
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Re: BYU being sued for "online" curriculum not being what was paid for

Post by Lemmie »

Iirc, LDS leadership didn’t close their temples until a worker, in temple on a Wednesday or Thursday, became Utah’s first COVID death the following Sunday. Hopefully, they are more proactive now, rather than just reactive. Bednar’s rant about how being forced to close churches violates his religious rights, however, doesn’t spark confidence.

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Re: BYU being sued for "online" curriculum not being what was paid for

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For better or worse, I believe this pandemic will change not only how we do business, but how universities will operate. Going forward, I believe that distance delivered courses will become a significant offering at traditionally brick and mortar universities. With that said, not all online programs are the same. I teach at a state university, and their term for online is a self-paced asynchronous course that is distance delivered. They also have a "live streaming" course option. Which is distance delivered but replaces the on-campus classroom experience with interactive virtual classes delivered with Zoom or MS Teams. For this upcoming semester our school has chosen to have most courses distance delivered, so I will not be in a physical classroom this fall, and I will miss it.
I have deep experience developing and teaching distance delivered courses, and I believe they have their place. Distance delivered courses work well with mature, self-motivated learners, and their online, asynchronous nature offers a solution to geography and scheduling difficulties. But online is not for every student. Especially new students. I much prefer on-campus, face to face teaching. Online classes cannot replace the rich face to face classroom experience. Also, the traditional college experience, where much indirect learning takes place, is lost in a virtual environment.

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Re: BYU being sued for "online" curriculum not being what was paid for

Post by Meadowchik »

Kishkumen wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:00 pm


BYU provides a quality education for a reasonable price. I doubt their handling of the unexpected catastrophe was that different from most other universities, including your valiant university. I don’t mistake BYU for church leadership or for Liberty University, the latter of which was the very model of ignoring science and behaving irresponsibly. LDS leadership actually advocated to its members that they follow the science by masking up and practicing social distancing. They did not ignore science and continue to hold meetings throughout the entire pandemic.
As a BYU alumnus I agree with your first point. To your second, I've been observing the pandemic since my own online students in China were in lockdown the first time, and I was greatly relieved when the church took precautionary social distancing steps.

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Re: BYU being sued for "online" curriculum not being what was paid for

Post by Meadowchik »

Lemmie wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:31 pm
Iirc, LDS leadership didn’t close their temples until a worker, in temple on a Wednesday or Thursday, became Utah’s first COVID death the following Sunday. Hopefully, they are more proactive now, rather than just reactive. Bednar’s rant about how being forced to close churches violates his religious rights, however, doesn’t spark confidence.
Especially if Bednar's opinions are an example of prevailing feelings at the top, perhaps the church's litigation awareness has benefitted us all.

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Re: BYU being sued for "online" curriculum not being what was paid for

Post by moksha »

Shulem wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:51 pm
The lawsuit against BYU seems like such waste. The student should cut his losses like the rest of us, move on, and do whatever it takes to make the best of the situation.
If the lawyers sense they will not be paid, the lawsuit will end abruptly.
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Re: BYU being sued for "online" curriculum not being what was paid for

Post by toon »

sunstoned wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:24 pm
For better or worse, I believe this pandemic will change not only how we do business, but how universities will operate. Going forward, I believe that distance delivered courses will become a significant offering at traditionally brick and mortar universities. With that said, not all online programs are the same.

I have deep experience developing and teaching distance delivered courses, and I believe they have their place. Distance delivered courses work well with mature, self-motivated learners, and their online, asynchronous nature offers a solution to geography and scheduling difficulties. But online is not for every student. Especially new students. I much prefer on-campus, face to face teaching. Online classes cannot replace the rich face to face classroom experience. Also, the traditional college experience, where much indirect learning takes place, is lost in a virtual environment.
It also depends on the program and degree. As an example, one of the benefits of law school is learning social drinking skills. I’m not sure that can be properly replicated online.

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Re: BYU being sued for "online" curriculum not being what was paid for

Post by Physics Guy »

moksha wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:06 am
If the lawyers sense they will not be paid, the lawsuit will end abruptly.
I felt a large disturbance in the fees.

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Kishkumen
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Re: BYU being sued for "online" curriculum not being what was paid for

Post by Kishkumen »

Lemmie wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:31 pm
Iirc, LDS leadership didn’t close their temples until a worker, in temple on a Wednesday or Thursday, became Utah’s first COVID death the following Sunday. Hopefully, they are more proactive now, rather than just reactive. Bednar’s rant about how being forced to close churches violates his religious rights, however, doesn’t spark confidence.
Does anyone know what kind of precautions they were taking before they closed? Social distancing? Masks? Did they go from taking no precautions to closing?
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist

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Dr Moore
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Re: BYU being sued for "online" curriculum not being what was paid for

Post by Dr Moore »

What a stupid frivolous lawsuit.

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Kishkumen
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Re: BYU being sued for "online" curriculum not being what was paid for

Post by Kishkumen »

Dr Moore wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:37 pm
What a stupid frivolous lawsuit.
I trust your opinion on that.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist

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Dr Moore
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Re: BYU being sued for "online" curriculum not being what was paid for

Post by Dr Moore »

I wonder if one of these class action attorneys has done the math, so to speak, and spread the word that there is gold in these hills. Assessing fixed and variable costs, someone must believe there is a non trivial cost gap between in person and online, that that gap won’t be disgorged voluntarily by universities but will be relieved by litigation.

Now I think it’s stupid and frivolous to go after BYU, a university that already gives students a something like 80% tuition scholarship, and is generally recognized as the highest value for the money in a top 100 US university. That seems a bad place to start setting legal precedent on this question.

Other suits with possible class action designations: Yale, Kent State, Temple, Syracuse, BYU, are a few that come up on Google News searches within the past 4 days.

Law firms generally don’t pursue class actions without a plan that involves money coming into their tills. I think someone did the math and has figured that it costs less to deliver college online, that University endowments exist for just such a rainy day, and that excess tuition money will eventually be court mandated back to students.

The numbers would be massive for even one school. Without being too exact, say the suit relieves students at UniversityXYZ of $10k in tuition. Student body 15,000. That is a $150 million potential settlement. A 10-30% cut is $15-45 million to the litigating attorneys. Not bad. And that is just one school.

So start by demanding the world, describe a huge gap in cost and amplify that with claims of worse educational quality, and hope to settle on a number that fills some or most of the stated economic gap. This makes the BYU case make sense from an attorney risk point of view.

But again, why start with BYU? You’re dead at square one when the numbers come out. BYU just says: well it costs $35k per student normally, and say it’s $25k online. Ok, we charge $7k. Case closed.

If any of you with direct exposure to university finances, I think the critical piece of analysis here is fixed vs variable operating costs.

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