New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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aussieguy55
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

Post by aussieguy55 »

Robert Smith on the MAD board says "Careful analysis shows that there are two hands of the guy on the couch, rather than a second bird wing. This restoration is phony as a three-dollar bill." What say you shulem?
" have lost count of the number of times I have come across triumphalist, conclusory, this-time-the-Church-is-really-done-for! rhetoric like what is presented above. I become less enthused when such stuff centers on arguments

A) that are about complex, obscure, highly-specialized topics;
B) that involve definitive/conclusory statements about matters that necessarily involve considerable amounts of guesswork, conjecture, assumptions, etc.;
C) that are predominantly not susceptible to empirical analysis; and
D) that are larded up with bolstering language, appeals to authority, sneering, sarcasm, ad hominem, etc.
Also, Ritner seems to have a genuine vendetta / axe-grinding attitude against Gee. How much of his animus is derived from personality conflicts (going back, it seems, to the controversy about Ritner's removal from Gee's dissertation committed)? How much has that animus affected his scholarly assessment (see comments by Morris, quoted by Kevin here)?

Also, I'm very much not a fan of John Dehlin's meandering, ignorant (by his own admission), stacking-the-deck approach to interviewing. I don't trust Dehlin to give the Church a fair hearing, or to accurately or fairly state or summarize the arguments presented by scholars and apologists who have marshaled evidence and argument on issues like the Book of Abraham." attack the messnger.
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Shulem
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

Post by Shulem »

aussieguy55 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:57 pm
Robert Smith on the MAD board says "Careful analysis shows that there are two hands of the guy on the couch, rather than a second bird wing. This restoration is phony as a three-dollar bill." What say you shulem?
I addressed the birdwing/hand issue a long time ago as an apologist.

See here:

Thumb or Bird Wing?

BUT it really doesn't matter whether it was a wing or a hand because Smith's argument is destroyed on every other account. It's a matter of discussion that comes from non sequitur thinking because the apologist is just trying to distract from the real issue. It's NOT Abraham!

aussieguy55,

Go over to the MAD board and tell that Robert Smith to get his lying mouth over here to Mormon Discussions and discuss the king's name with me in Facsimile No. 3. That is all I want to talk about. I will build my case that Joseph Smith himself is responsible for that particular revelation and that he was wrong and that the Latter-day Saints in Nauvoo believed his lie.

All we have to to do is discuss the king's name and the history behind that from Nauvoo and Kirtland all the way back to ancient Egypt.

I will kick Robert Smith's dirty lying mouth. I'll do it blindfolded and with both hands tied behind my back. You go tell that little twerp to to get his ass over here so I can kick it and embarrass him in front of everyone.

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Philo Sofee
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

Post by Philo Sofee »

That is a debate I would enjoy seeing.......
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Shulem rebukes Robert F. (as in fuk) Smith

Post by Shulem »

Robert F. Smith wrote:Making Ritner out to be God Almighty is just silly.
Come here, Robert. Listen up and learn a lesson. Nobody said Ritner was God Almighty. Nobody, not even Unclean Deacon said any such silly thing.
Robert F. Smith wrote:Ritner is an excellent Egyptologist.
Yes he is. He correctly translates the hieroglyphic writing in Facsimile No. 3. He can read the label above the goddess Isis. Can you?
Robert F. Smith wrote:I heard him lecture years ago at UCLA, and have an autographed copy of his published dissertation.
So you've been around. Praise be to you! U must be old. What's the king's name in Facsimile No. 3?
Robert F. Smith wrote:I have several volumes containing his published work, and I refer to them regularly.
Listen to you! You're a big boy now! I'll bet you can even read Egyptian!

Image
Robert F. Smith wrote:However, he is not smarter than Nibley, Gee, Muhlestein, and Rhodes, and the issues are scholarly.
Smarter? Based on what, IQ? Do you even know his IQ? Whether he's smarter or not makes no difference. What matters is what's true.

What's the king's name in Facsimile No. 3? Who is "smart" enough to know that?
Robert F. Smith wrote:Your and Bill Reel's focus on apologetics is just childish.
Out of the mouth of babes . . . .

What matters is what's true. There is NO king's name in Facsimile No. 3. Isn't that right, Robert-baby?

What's the king's name that Joseph was referring to?

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Shulem
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

Post by Shulem »

Robert F. Smith wrote:According to non-Mormon Egyptologist Lanny Bell, careful analysis shows that there are two hands of the guy on the couch (Osiris-Abraham), rather than a second bird wing.
Does that mean the Church is now true?

Hey, Robert, what's the king's name in Facsimile No. 3?
Robert F. Smith wrote:This restoration (by non-Egyptologist anti-Mormon Chuck Larson) is phony as a three-dollar bill.
Let me tell you what's really phony, Robert:

"Fig. 3. The idolatrous priest of Elkenah attempting to offer up Abraham as a sacrifice."

Since when does a priest of Egypt have a black skinned body with a white man's head?

Smith's depiction of Anubis is more queer than a three-dollar bill? (You're not queer, are you, Robert? Just wondering)

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Robert F. Smith wrote:By the way, all Egyptologists understand the priest as wearing a jackal mask
Robert. Listen up. Anubis in Facsimile No. 3 is NOT a priest. He is NOT a slave. He is the very god Anubis and he's not wearing a jackal mask. He is in heaven! Not earth.

So, with that said, where is his snout?

Where is his snout?

I can't hear you, Robert? Are you deaf? Are you dumb?

:twisted:

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

Post by Shulem »

Image

Robert F. Smith must be smart if he can read Hebrew.

Hey, Robert, can you read Egyptian -- like Joseph Smith?

What's the king's name in Facsimile No. 3?

I. WILL. NEVER. STOP. ASKING.

:twisted:

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

Post by Shulem »

Joseph Smith, Editor of the Times and Seasons wrote:The above translation is given as far as we have any right to give at the present time.
So, you've given a translation.

What right do you have to give an Egyptian translation seeing nobody today knows Egyptan?

Oh, you must mean it's revelation given by the Lord?

Sacred stuff, kind of like sacred Masonic stuff in the temple.

I get it.

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

Post by sunstoned »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:09 am
Listening to this podcast is a must. Ritner destroys the apologists again and he confirms why outside experts don't usually bother with Mormon claims - the silliness and ridiculousness of the claims are so obvious that it isn't worth the time. (Gee, Muhlstein, Carmack, Skousen, etc., please stand down before you embarrass yourselves further). I can't wait for the next installments.
What these apologist do is such a waist of time and effort. And money. someone is paying their salaries. They might as well be arguing for flat earth theory. Mormon scholarly apologetics are such an embarrassment and a career killer.

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

Post by moksha »

Shulem, what's wrong with apologists denying the obvious if it helps the Church to retain tithe payers?
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

Post by Shulem »

moksha wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:14 am
Shulem, what's wrong with apologists denying the obvious if it helps the Church to retain tithe payers?
As a former Book of Abraham apologist, I encourage others including myself to stay in the church and to continue paying tithing. I will never get to see my share of donations that's sitting in the Ensign Peak fund. I should have kept the money. Being an apologist was expensive.

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Robert F. Smith wrote:Non-LDS Egyptologists Von Bissing, Woodward, and Hughes all agreed that the Anubis-priest in Fac 1:3 could have a knife in hand
You're so ____ dumb, Robert. Let me tell you what Non-LDS Egyptologists Von Bissing, Woodward, and Hughes would agree to:

1. There is no king's name given in the characters above the head of Isis in Facsimile No. 3. Joseph Smith was wrong.
2. Osiris is sitting upon his HEAVENLY throne, not Asiatic vile Abraham as Joseph Smith imagined.
3. The name Shulem is not written in the hieroglyphic writing of Facsimile No. 3. It's not the name of any Egyptian prince.
4. Anubis is a god, not a slave and he deserves to be depicted with his full face -- to include a snout.

YOU, Robert, are a piece of ____. I'd love to debate you and kick your sorry lying ass.

:twisted:

You think you know so much. You're actually stupid -- retarredd Mormon ass! You hide over there at MAD and act like you know so much and your so tough. You're pussy! A scared little pussy and I would love to kick your ass.

Come to Mormon Discussions so I can beat you up!

And I'm an anti-Mormon!

:mad:

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

Post by Dr Moore »

Professionally, the career of John Gee must have been one depressing year after another.

Think about the believing young man curious about the BofA, curious about the Egyptology, eager to serve the church by studying out the mysteries between them. He went all the way to Ph.D. and took up a career in the academy to this end. He seems like a smart and politically savvy guy: probably could have gone far in a non-apologetic profession.

I bet he honestly believed his Egyptology would lead to “proof” discoveries galore. I bet he dreamed of the day his work would unite people — members, leaders and scholars alike, both inside and outside the church, with beautifully unassailable connections. The implications would be massive: massively validating and massively faith supporting.

I mean think about this: if not for the Book of Abraham, there is no John Gee, Professor of Egyptology. Maybe he would have studied Hebrew or Philolgy or Mayan culture or frontier history, but there would have been no point in studying Egyptology. He went that route on purpose and his purpose is clear.

Instead, time has only shown Egyptian to be as worthless a field for evaluating Smith’s Egyptian translation project as the papyri have been as window to Abraham. Even worse, all of the active, relevant scholarship on the BofA is through the Hebrew now, no Egyptology required. It’s like Gee’s own commitment to belief led him down the one path that has become irrelevant for anything except to prove that Joseph made it all up. How utterly depressing.

All of Gee’s apologetics have been shot to smithereens, so he’s playing at social scientist now (tsk tsk, Mister Stay in your Lane) and writing mean book reviews.

Ritner doesn’t say it explicitly, but he would be justified in accusing Gee of abusing his degree to hoodwink church leaders too, not just members. If Gee would be honest about the Egyptology, the church might have entirely decanonized the BofA by now. And that would probably be a good thing.

By the way, Joseph must be laughing in his grave because check and mate, Michael Chandler. Smith’s creative imagination turned that investment of a few thousand dollars for grave garbage into billions.

Smith knew that the value of any fine art is not the object itself, but the story people will believe about it. Mormons pay millions in tithing to a church that still claims an Abrahamic lineage for the BofA scrolls for the same reason an authentic Honus Wagner card sells for millions.

Only difference is professional graders will certify the Honus Wagner.

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Shulem
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

Post by Shulem »

Robert F. Smith wrote:the priesthood is not being taught in any of the facsimile explanations
"Representing also the grand Key-words of the Holy Priesthood, as revealed to Adam in the Garden of Eden, as also to Seth, Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham, and all to whom the Priesthood was revealed"

"revealing through the heavens the grand Key-words of the Priesthood"


Nothing is being revealed. Nothing is being taught. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Robert F Smith must have a hole in his head wherein his brains spilled out. What a quack!

I just changed my mind. I DO NOT want to debate that idiot. What a waste of time. Waste of my time!

:lol:

retarreded + retarreded = retarrarded

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Robert Smith is almost as clever a rhetorician as Daniel C. Peterson.......almost... So now we have it that when Joseph Smith was talking about the Priesthood, its not really the priesthood because Robert Smith says so. Got it. Every time Joseph Smith says something that is later demonstrably phony, the apologetic is that Smith did not really say or mean what has been demonstrated false. More word games. So priesthood is not really priesthood in the Book of Abraham or facsimiles. It must be.........um...........seance? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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This was a fascinating podcast. Thanks for the link. I haven't done a Mormonstories episode in years, but this was worth my time.

What I found most fascinating was how much the Mormons via the Masons copied the Egyptian religion. Well...all of Christianity copied the Egyptian pagan religion... The whole resurrection and Virgin birth, preexistance, temples, and using a secret name to get past the guard at the gates/veil is fascinating to me. I don't find it fascinating or compelling because it is true. I find it fascinating because I love science fiction and fantasy and cultural history in general. It really is what made Mormonism so great. It's too bad the church has abandoned all this philosophy and teachings and history. "I don't think we teach that... I don't think we emphasize it..." It's awesome and it made Mormonism "interesting". Now Mormonism is simply another protestant evangelical branch of Christianity. Boo.

Best part of the podcast is when they were talking about the Egyptian facsimile where the Egyptian God is masturbating and using his "seed" to populate the worlds, and RFM says, "that is how we got the "Big Bang theory". Classic moment . A literal laugh out loud moment. Great job consiglieri.

The masterbating God seeding the worlds...that should a have been one of those teachings that was to be revealed in the temple. Can you imagine shulem? OMG, If only Joseph Smith was a prophet and had been able to read the hieroglyphic. What a great religion and temple experience it could have been.
Last edited by cwald on Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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p.s. consiglieri. You earned that A grade. Good work.
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

Post by moksha »

Any update regarding the podcast with Shirts and Osborne?
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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I would be like totally boring man compared to this podcast......
This podcast is sensational!!!!!!!!!
Gee and Muhlestein are OVER, DONE, WASHED UP, DEAD. They have literally LIED their entire lives....
Incredible smack down of the apologists...........the strongest against the human sacrifice argument I have ever heard. THE TANNERS GOT IT RIGHT!!! Just WOW. And the liars are the Mormons. I mean this eviscerates anything Mormons ever say or have said about the scripture, or the Holy Ghost bearing witness to its truth. My gawd this is MASSIVE destruction of Mormon credibility. Amazing! And I am only into it 1 hour of 4 in part 2!
Paul Osborne HAS BEEN RIGHT. Yes, he's crude, but HE IS RIGHT. Brian Hauglid IS RIGHT. It is the establishment religion that has been lying to us with its paid apologists the entire time. This podcast is the FINAL SAY SO. Robert Smith is a clown compared to Ritner. NONE (its hard to over exaggerate this!) NONE of the Mormon claims on the Pearl of Great Price are correct. EVERYTHING apologetic is literally lies, distortions, and obfuscations. My gawd this is incredible work. CONGRATS CONSIGLIERI!!!!!!!!!!! Everything you do, unfortunately after this will be less than. Prove me wrong however........Lol
Last edited by Philo Sofee on Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

Post by Philo Sofee »

Cwald
Best part of the podcast is when they were talking about the Egyptian facsimile where the Egyptian God is masturbating and using his "seed" to populate the worlds, and RFM says, "that is how we got the "Big Bang theory". Classic moment . A literal laugh out loud moment. Great job consiglieri.

The masterbating God seeding the worlds...that should a have been one of those teachings that was to be revealed in the temple. Can you imagine shulem? OMG, If only Joseph Smith was a prophet and had been able to read the hieroglyphic. What a great religion and temple experience it could have been.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Now in bishops interviews when asked if we masturbate we can say SURE! God did according to the papyri, so we do too!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Shulem
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

Post by Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:46 pm
Paul Osborne HAS BEEN RIGHT. Yes, he's crude, but HE IS RIGHT.
I totally agree and appreciate your acclamation and enthusiasm!!

Book of Abraham apologetics has gone down kicking and screaming. I've taken the Book of Abraham and have it in a Full Nelson position -- I'm squeezing hard and remain in a state of glee and exhilaration that the Book of Abraham is destroyed.

I really, really, would love to discuss the king's name with John Gee and his sidekick, Muhlestein.

I would love to discuss Anubis in Facsimile No. 3.

I would love to bear testimony of what Joseph Smith and others said about the papyrus (according to the historical records).

I would love to bear testimony that the spiritual manifestation given by Joseph Smith was false. The saints in Kirtland & Nauvoo were lied to.

COME TO ME, John Gee. Let me take you down the rabbit hole. I'll take you for a ride you'll never forget!

I'm right here, waiting for you. I am your worst enemy. Do you want to take me on? Do you think you can?

I will focus like a laser beam and destroy your argument! My laser will cut and I'll break you.

I want to put John Gee in his place. I want to humble his sorry lying ass.

:twisted:

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