New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Shulem wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:43 am
Dr Exiled wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:22 pm
Shulem and his posts, scholarship, and second token thread are reasons why this board needs to be preserved. What is the King's name again, Dr. Gee? Muhlstein?
You know, I really, really appreciate you saying that. Sometimes I wonder if my specialized work on the Book of Abraham here on the board is appreciated or has it just become a tiresome rant?

Yeah, the second token thread down in telestial is a real piece of work! It's there to demonstrate just how silly the whole thing is and the meaning behind it that members can't talk about because of the temple gag order. I have to think that if Mormons were to actually talk about it they would come to terms with just how silly it is and lose the desire to practice the ritual.

I have to admit that it did take the use of ALCOHOL to give me the courage to do that thread. I would have been reticent or too afraid to do it because it's so graphic, negative, and insults a sacred ritual had by people who think they are doing something wonderful. If it wasn't for the ALCOHOL, I never would have got that thread off the ground and the token would not have been exposed in that manner.

So, the ALCOHOL, when used, has been a silver lining. Shades doesn't quite get that but that's okay with me. The alcohol gave me the courage to push the villain off the cliff.
Thank God for alcohol. I've had my share of posting while buzzed. :lol: :lol: :cool:
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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John and Ritner are back discussing Fac 2
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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It is well worth the time watching it especially the section on Fac 3.
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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aussieguy55 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:21 am
It is well worth the time watching it especially the section on Fac 3.
Indeed, it was a real treat. I listened to all 4 hours last night. I was particularly impressed when RFM brought up the missing snout at 3:55 and discussed the basics of the discovery I had made a few years ago -- even mentioned my name 3 times in that five minute block. Way to go, RFM! I'm famous now!

:lol:

Ritner is now in the loop about the missing jackal snout and there will likely be more chatter about this and Church apologists are going to eventually address it. With that, there MUST be a professional non-biased examination of the lead printing plate to determine exactly what happened and if indeed the hacked out section was an afterthought in recreating the head.

I'm totally confident that the snout was hacked out. There is no way in hell that an Egyptian scribe or priest would have drawn a head of Anubis as portrayed by Smith in his Facsimile. That is unacceptable and beyond the bounds of possibility. The heads of Isis, Osiris, and Maat, were reproduced in their correct fashion which proves the original papyrus design imagery of the gods was correct. So MUST also have been Anubis but Smith committed sacrilege at his expense in order to tell his own unauthorized story of ancient Egypt.

It was my pleasure to bust Smith in the act!

:twisted:

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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The Book of Abraham as a translation is one of the greatest causes of loss of faith for Ex Mormons who were once devoted all in members of the LDS Church. This issue is complex and complicated to understand at depth and yet such depth is needed to avoid the pitfalls of the faulty fallacies inside the argument of LDS Mormon apologists. Below is the best of the best in understanding the problems and evidence behind this issue.

https://radiofreemormon.org/2018/12/rad ... cs-part-1/

https://radiofreemormon.org/2018/12/rad ... cs-part-2/

https://radiofreemormon.org/2019/02/rad ... cs-part-3/

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/201 ... f-abraham/

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp- ... aham-1.pdf

https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchica ... inal-2.pdf

And Recently the Radio Free Mormon's interview w/ LDS Historian and contributor to the Joseph Smith Papers Project Brian Hauglid.

https://radiofreemormon.org/2020/07/rad ... interview/

As well as the recent Radio Free Mormon / Mormon Stories Part 1 interview with Renowned Egyptologist Robert Ritner ( succeeding parts yet to be recorded and published.)

https://radiofreemormon.org/2020/07/rad ... am-part-1/

https://radiofreemormon.org/2020/08/rad ... am-part-2/
http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/ - Strengthening Feeble Knees and Lifting Hands that Hang Down

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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With regard to Kerry Muhlestein's lion couch claim discussed in the first part of the interview, here is a list of instances in which he made the claim:

1.
[T]here are enough instances in which Abraham appears in contexts normally occupied by Osiris that we must conclude the Egyptians saw
some sort of connection between the two. . . . in a drawing that accompanies a text for a love charm, the text specifically notes that the
drawing is associated with the spell. The vignette depicts a mummiform figure on a lion couch. Here we would typically expect to identify the figure with Osiris, but the text notes that it is Abraham on the couch. All these instances occur within an Egyptian religious context, making it clear that for whatever reason, the Egyptians viewed Abraham as an appropriate parallel for Osiris—if not the most appropriate parallel.
The Religious and Cultural Background of Joseph Smith Papyrus One,” Journal of Book of Mormon and Other Restoration Scripture 22, no. 1 (2013), 25.

2.
Let me tell you one of the more fascinating things that we’ve found. We’ve found that the ancient Egyptians themselves have associated Abraham with this kind of scene. We have a drawing of a person on a lion couch—the kind of altar that Abraham is on in Facsimile 1—but they say, specifically, that the person on this couch is Abraham. So the ancient Egyptian themselves associate Abraham with this kind of scene, which is what Joseph Smith ends up doing.
“The Three Facsimile Translations Wrong? Book of Abraham Challenge 3” (posted Feb. 18, 2013), 0:28-0:53.

3.
[T]here are enough instances where Abraham appears in contexts normally occupied by Osiris that we must conclude the Egyptians saw some sort of connection. . . . a drawing accompanies a text for a love charm (a genre which is curiously descended from execration rituals), and the text specifically notes that the drawing is associated with the spell. The vignette depicts a mummiform figure on a lion couch. Here, we would typically expect to identify the figure with Osiris, but the text notes that it is Abraham on the couch.
“Abraham, Isaac, and Osiris-Michael: The Use of Biblical Figures in Egyptian Religion,” in the proceedings of Achievements and Problems of Modern Egyptology, ed. Galina, A. Belova (Moscow: Russian Academy of Sciences, 2012), 251.

4.
Moreover, it is worth noting that we have found a papyrus depicting a person on a lion couch whom the Egyptians labeled as Abraham. Here we see that the Egyptians themselves associated the scene with Abraham.
"Egyptian Papyri and the Book of Abraham -- A Faithful, Egyptological Point of View,” in No Weapon Shall Prosper: New Light on Sensitive Issues, Robert L. Millett, ed. (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2011), 217-241.

5.
In there is a lion couch scene. It's actually part of a love charm. And the text says--it's got a picture of a man on a lion couch--and the text says, "This--err, Abraham upon his couch."
FAIR, "A Most Remarkable Book: Evidence for the Divine Authenticity of the Book of Abraham" (2011), 00:24:45.

6.
It is also worth noting that there is a papyrus from the Roman period with a person on a lion couch whom the Egyptians themselves labeled as Abraham. This confirms that Egyptians sometimes associated a figure on a lion couch with Abraham.
"Egyptian Papyri and the Book of Abraham," in The Religious Educator 11/1 (2010): 90-106.

When questioned in 2103 about his claim in the FAIR video, Muhlestein wrote:
My reference is essentially correct. In my unplanned remarks I may have misspoken a little. The reference absolutely is to Abraham, and is to Abraham who is upon . . . At that point it is broken and does not tell us what he is on. Because it is connected with a figure on a lion couch it is reasonable to suppose that it is to Abraham on the altar or couch, but that last word is not certain. The reference to Abraham in connection with the scene, and to Abraham being on something is fully certain. I usually try to make it clear that this last word is an assumption, but I may not have in that video...I hope this is helpful.

In 2016, Muhlestein published an article featuring a "note" regarding the lion couch claim. He backed away from his original claim a bit, but he insisted that the Egyptians "eventually saw a connection" between Abraham and the lion couch scene:
A note regarding the connection between Abraham and the kind of drawing that is on Facsimile One is also in order. In past publications and other forums I have not been as clear about the connection as I should have been. I have misstated that the text of a particular papyrus said that it was Abraham on top of a lion couch, a scene that is similar to that on Facsimile One. However, the text did not say it was Abraham on top of the lion couch. Instead, Abraham’s name was written underneath the lion couch scene, and the spell concludes with the formulaic phrase that the text above was to accompany the picture. This means that, while we cannot be sure what the association between Abraham and the lion couch scene was, there was an intended association. The association of a lion couch with Abraham, whatever the nature of the association, is the point here. Clearly some Egyptians eventually saw a connection between the Jewish Patriarch and a scene somewhat similar to Facsimile One, just as they did with drawings similar to Facsimiles Two and Three.
"Assessing the Joseph Smith Papyri: An Introduction to the Historiography of their Acquisitions, Translations, and Interpretations," Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture 22 (2016): 46-47.

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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(Dr. Shades here, posting under our "Temp. Admin." account.)

Thank you for this, Tom. You truly are a gem!

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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I second Shades here Tom! It's probably too bad no "real" Egyptologists agree with the way Kerry Apologetichandles his material.
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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I third the motion! I just texted that information to Dr. Ritner so he could put it in his files. I was surprised how many times Kerry has mentioned this canard
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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The silly thing is it was Gee's argument originally, and even he backed away from it. Why on earth is he not correcting Kerry on it?! That is just irresponsible.
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Did Ritner say he received a lot of mail/letter regarding his work on the Book of Abraham someone of which were very critical and others praising his work. He said something that the admin at the University did not like him sharing on his site as it might affect donations to the work for research.
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Tom wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:16 pm
In 2016, Muhlestein published an article featuring a "note" regarding the lion couch claim. He backed away from his original claim a bit, but he insisted that the Egyptians "eventually saw a connection" between Abraham and the lion couch scene:
A note regarding the connection between Abraham and the kind of drawing that is on Facsimile One is also in order. In past publications and other forums I have not been as clear about the connection as I should have been. I have misstated that the text of a particular papyrus said that it was Abraham on top of a lion couch, a scene that is similar to that on Facsimile One. However, the text did not say it was Abraham on top of the lion couch. Instead, Abraham’s name was written underneath the lion couch scene, and the spell concludes with the formulaic phrase that the text above was to accompany the picture. This means that, while we cannot be sure what the association between Abraham and the lion couch scene was, there was an intended association. The association of a lion couch with Abraham, whatever the nature of the association, is the point here. Clearly some Egyptians eventually saw a connection between the Jewish Patriarch and a scene somewhat similar to Facsimile One, just as they did with drawings similar to Facsimiles Two and Three.
"Assessing the Joseph Smith Papyri: An Introduction to the Historiography of their Acquisitions, Translations, and Interpretations," Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture 22 (2016): 46-47.
Weak sauce, and, worse yet, it shows a fundamental lack of understanding of ancient magical texts.
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Kishkumen wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:20 am
... it shows a fundamental lack of understanding of ancient magical texts.
Does anyone know if apologists have donned Egyptian garb and tried to reenact the love potion chant involving Abraham? That would make for a tremendous story in the Interpreter and a good blurb in Sic et Non.
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Kishkumen wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:20 am
Weak sauce, and, worse yet, it shows a fundamental lack of understanding of ancient magical texts.
It's more than weak when you take into consideration this is LATE PERIOD Egypt which is long after the classic Middle Kingdom in which Abraham would have lived and there is no record of Abraham in Egypt during that period. More especially, the idea of vile Asiatic (Abraham) trolling down to Egypt during a famine to sit on the throne of Sesostris or Amenemhat is beyond silly -- it's not even possible when taking into consideration the Egyptian tradition and conventions. There is no way in hell that Abraham sat his Semite ass on the sacred throne of Egypt. The Middle Egyptian kings were very protective of their courts and temples. They would never be defiled in the manner in which Smith says they were in Facsimile No. 3. The same principle could be applied to Mormons as they protect their temples as sacred places for only those who are authorized to enter and perform religious work. They don't just let anyone off the street walk into the Salt Lake Temple and enter the holy of holies and kneel at a temple alter. No!

The Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are an abomination and are totally UnEgyptian. You can be absolutely sure that Joseph Smith made that stuff up and falsely represented ancient Egypt in not not knowing a damn thing about it other than the crap he read in the bible.

Muhlestein is a joke. He's a tricky little liar and he knows it.

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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On Fairmormon page
"John Gee is the William Gay Assistant Research Professor of Egyptology at the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship. They begin by touching upon the difference between John Gee’s and Brian Hauglid’s claims before going into a greater discussion about the Book of Abraham. John Gee relays the most important evidences for the Book of Abraham, outlines faithful positions on historicity that believers can have, discusses his favorite Abrahamic stories, and much more. He offers a preview of what his FairMormon presentation will be. In a truly great interview, John Gee offers an excellent case for why the Book of Abraham has historical probability and also, why that matters."
https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2020/07 ... m#comments

This was before Ritner's interview. Has anyone here listened to it and does it say anything of interest.
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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aussieguy55 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:13 am
This was before Ritner's interview. Has anyone here listened to it and does it say anything of interest.
I listened to it. John Gee is boring and totally unable to engage anything with substance. He's bland, boring, dull, and DISHONEST. His interviewer, what's her name, sounds like a bimbo and couldn't stop laughing at one point.

John Gee would not survive an interview or debate with me. I would rake him under the coals and totally trash his argument. I say that not to elevate myself but to deflate him. He's a loser. He's a Goddamn liar too. His silly apologetic tricks don't work on me. I've got him figured out and would love to twist his arms in a debate. I can assure you that if John Gee were to debate me he would blow a gasket and freak out. He would not be able to handle it.

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Shulem wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:29 am
It's more than weak when you take into consideration this is LATE PERIOD Egypt which is long after the classic Middle Kingdom in which Abraham would have lived and there is no record of Abraham in Egypt during that period. More especially, the idea of vile Asiatic (Abraham) trolling down to Egypt during a famine to sit on the throne of Sesostris or Amenemhat is beyond silly -- it's not even possible when taking into consideration the Egyptian tradition and conventions. There is no way in hell that Abraham sat his Semite ass on the sacred throne of Egypt. The Middle Egyptian kings were very protective of their courts and temples. They would never be defiled in the manner in which Smith says they were in Facsimile No. 3. The same principle could be applied to Mormons as they protect their temples as sacred places for only those who are authorized to enter and perform religious work. They don't just let anyone off the street walk into the Salt Lake Temple and enter the holy of holies and kneel at a temple alter. No!

The Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are an abomination and are totally UnEgyptian. You can be absolutely sure that Joseph Smith made that stuff up and falsely represented ancient Egypt in not not knowing a damn thing about it other than the crap he read in the bible.

Muhlestein is a joke. He's a tricky little liar and he knows it.
Yes, I think it is unfortunate that Mopologists such as Gee have hitched their wagons to untenable historical arguments, but there you have it. They will continue to sink testimonies as they travel down that road (to mix a few metaphors).
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Here I think is the way LDS are going to deal with Ritner. The we cannot know everything.Some mocking over on the MAD board

"From what I have watched so far, [b]these sessions are pretty good for a laugh, not pretty tight[/b].

Historical records and archaeology naturally have areas of great factual density and detail interspersed by often far larger gaps. There is plenty in these fields that is [b]not an exact empirical science[/b] for precisely these reasons. No one in the fields of history or archaeology can claim that all that will ever be discovered on a matter has been discovered and no [b]further details can[/b] ever[b] emerge[/b]. This is particularly true the further back in time we go.

Ritner discusses matters for which there are the equivalent of a single page of a newspaper from way back when... Plenty detail for the stories covered on that page, but some stories are truncated since the other pages are missing. Also the rest of the newspaper is completely absent and then there are yet other stories that were never covered on that day or ever... T[b]o assert or imply that all that can be known on the matters being discussed is laughable.[/b]

Some may say this would be an "Abraham of the Gaps" type argument but I am not the one asserting that all that can be know is known. The burden for this proof resides with Ritner... We are looking at a smattering of document and engravings that cover periods of thousands of years and we know symbolic representation are often co-opted or shift over time, especially over this amount of time.

Just look at the EmodE discussion thread as an example of how rapidly word usage grammar etc. drifts within languages."
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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aussieguy55 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:23 pm
Here I think is the way LDS are going to deal with Ritner. The we cannot know everything.Some mocking over on the MAD board
This guy is a dodo:
Kevin Christensen wrote:I'm not particularly scandalized by the discussion of the way that some of the facsimilies have had controversial reconstructions, (for instance, some random characters added to the rim of #2 willy nilly to make a complete picture for publication), since I've been aware of that sort of thing since Ashment and Nibley began serious discussion of that issue in Sunstone decades ago.
"SOME of the facsimiles" Did he say, "some"?

How about all three of them! Can you count, Kevin Christensen? 1, 2, 3!!!

You, Kevin, would definitely feel scandalized if you had a black body with a white head! You might even feel violated! Certainly if someone hacked your nose off and called you a slave.
Mormon dialogue & discussion board wrote:
Kevin Christensen

Image

Gender:Male
Location:Canonsburg, PA
1. A street beggar
2. The name above the head is Poopoo-peepee
3. The character depicted is an old woman who begs on the side of the street
4. Lives in the poorer section of ancient Calcutta

The translation of the above is given as far as we have any right to give at the present time.

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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webbles at Mormon dialogue & discussion board wrote:I don't see how Fac 1 could have the person on the couch holding his penis when he is clothed.
Well, then, you're just a dodo, webbles.

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