New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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jfro18
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New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

Post by jfro18 »

I haven't had a chance to listen to it... and since it's a weekend might not until next week since I can't listen around my wife, but I can not wait to give this one a go.

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/202 ... am-part-1/

A saw someone recommend the Mormon Stories link as they use video with the images of the facsimiles/papyri/other similar scrolls which are helpful as the conversation gets going, and those are @ https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/robert-ritner/
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Shulem
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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OMFG!

:surprised:

Click!

Press play.

:ugeek:

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Shulem
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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When the papyrus came to Kirtland the only thing anyone really knew about ancient Egypt was what was written in the Bible.

Abraham!

Joseph!

Moses!

That *was* Chandler's selling point and the message of excitement about the papyrus as it came rolling into Kirtland on a carriage full of mummies and coffins. It was already noised abroad in various newspapers and showings and Smith capitalized on it right away.

Joseph Smith bought it -- hook, line, and sinker. And who would be the wiser? Nobody can read Egyptian -- except for Joseph Smith the translator.

Step right up, folks! The Mormon prophet will now translate to the glory of God.

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Shulem
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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RFM brings to Ritner's attention that the Book of Mormon claimed to use so-called reformed Egyptian hieroglyphs because they take up less space than Hebrew -- wherefore, the space on gold plates was precious so it would be better to use Egyptian rather than Hebrew. Little wonder the Kirtland Egyptian Papers show that Smith believed a single Egyptian character was equal to a paragraph of English text.

Good job, RFM! You get a brownie point. He he he.
Robert Ritner wrote:Spill out an entire one paragraph from one sign!
That was the prevailing ignorant belief about the lost Egyptian language going back to Roman times when the language died. Smith picked up on that and ran with his translation-ball making the so-called "Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language".

That's exactly what the Smith gang did in thinking a single Egyptian character is worth a whole paragraph of English content.

At most, a single Egyptian sign can mean an entire word but never a whole paragraph as Smith assumed. The whole idea of a single sign being read as an entire paragraph is absolutely wrong.

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Shulem
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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A vile Asiatic such as ABRAHAM from the land of Canaan would not have known how to write Egyptian. Only 1% of native Egyptians knew how to write Egyptian and the ability to learn the language was specialized and taught only in sacred schools that associated with the Egyptian temples. The ability to write Egyptian was a sacred craft that was had by very few.

There is no way on Osiris's green earth that Abraham knew how to write Egyptian let alone sit on the king's throne as depicted by Joseph Smith's fantasized Explanation of Facsimile No. 3!

No. Way. In. Hell.

The Mormons are dead wrong. Period. End of story.

:mad:

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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WOW, it's a bullseye!

Robert Ritner makes a startling confession in giving credit to Joseph Smith in translating the papyrus; if you dovetail the only thing Smith got right in translating the text, it would be the word "THE".

:lol:

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Shulem
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Doctor Ritner confirms that Osiris grabs his penis to fertilize his wife in resurrection.

Praise be the gods of Egypt!

Amen.


Image

Screw you, John Gee! Kiss my ass you bastard Egyptologist! The name GEE is synonymous with lying.

Shame on your for taking advantage of poor RFM in deceiving him and fooling him with your silly apologetics.

I broke both Nibley's & Gee's arm in a snap!

Shulem is their worst enemy.

:twisted:

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Shulem
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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It's not secret, it's sacred.

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The Twelve Ejaculations

Abraham upon the altar giving his seed to create the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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I disagree with Robert Ritner in that the Egyptians accepted "ALL" gods to include JEHOVAH.

Although the Egyptians were generous and tolerant in allowing the worship of gods in the general sense, I know of no specific reference or doctrine in Egyptian chronology to include specific reference to JEHOVAH as being accepted into the Pantheon of Dynastic Egypt.

So, in this sense, I believe, Ritner is incorrect in making this generalization. Jehovah was an enemy to Egypt. Period.

Period.

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Dr Moore
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

Post by Dr Moore »

Joseph Smith was not the world’s greatest guesser.

Michael Chandler may have been the world’s greatest salesman.

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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I think it is worth repeating, something Chris Smith pointed out on this board years ago: Chandler had spent the last couple of years before he showed up in Kirtland, touring the east coast with the consignment of Egyptian artifacts and had ample time and exposure listening to the leading experts of the day comment on them. When Chandler arrived in Kirtland he spent some hours with Joseph Smith talking about the mummies and their papyri, after which Joseph Smith took some of the papyri home to examine it. He returned the next day with a partial explanation of its content, much of which agreed with what Chandler had told him the day before. What a shock! Chandler immediately congratulated Smith on his ability to regurgitate what he, Chandler had simply told him the day before. It is like the used car salesman who gushes about his potential sales customer's ability to spot the best car on the lot. "Why yes Mr Smith, that Ford Pinto has a great safety record, how did you know?"
So the 'lucky guesses" one may find are simply Joseph Smith repeating what Chandler told him about the artifacts. Where Joseph Smith gets it wrong is when he has to make up his own uniformed guesses.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Sadly, this board has been destroyed as a reference source in Google due to the problems associated with the latest board upgrade. I'm thinking about going over to the Forumotion backup board and inserted a bunch of Book of Abraham thread material from Mormon Discussions so that people can pull it up when Googling. Perhaps I can get Liz to insert a section under Terrestrial entitled "Book of Abraham" where these threads can be inserted? So much material has been lost on this board and that's sad.

https://mormondiscussions.forumotion.co ... rial-forum
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Listening to this podcast is a must. Ritner destroys the apologists again and he confirms why outside experts don't usually bother with Mormon claims - the silliness and ridiculousness of the claims are so obvious that it isn't worth the time. (Gee, Muhlstein, Carmack, Skousen, etc., please stand down before you embarrass yourselves further). I can't wait for the next installments.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 

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Shulem
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

Post by Shulem »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:09 am
Listening to this podcast is a must. Ritner destroys the apologists again and he confirms why outside experts don't usually bother with Mormon claims - the silliness and ridiculousness of the claims are so obvious that it isn't worth the time. (Gee, Muhlstein, Carmack, Skousen, etc., please stand down before you embarrass yourselves further). I can't wait for the next installments.
Yeah, the next installments will likely cover the Facsimiles in more detail and the Kirtland Papers. I like how they started out with Facsimile No. 1 after the long introductions and getting acquainted. RFM is pretty familiar with the Facsimile problems as is Ritner in a most general sense. RFM has the burden of asking the right questions in the best way in order to obtain answers that smack down the Book of Abraham in a way that kills every apologetic angle. I'm really hoping that Facsimile No. 3 is discussed in detail and especially Anubis and the missing snout. Then of course, there is always the question of the "king's name" which I go on and on about and for very good reason. It destroys the apologetic of a direct or literal translation in a conventional sense. Brian Hauglid was particularly concerned with that single point. It's a death blow. It bleeds right over to the entire translation of the Book of Abraham showing it was ALL bogus.

Party time with the Book of Abraham! And we get to laugh at Mormonism at the apologists expense. They are left to fall back on a mutated Catalyst Theory but when comparing that with the original claims made by the founders of Mormonism it is proven that the Catalyst Theory is in direct opposition of what was originally claimed and is actually an apostate view which would have angered Joseph Smith to no end.

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

Post by aussieguy55 »

I wonder what Smith would have made of the Fac 1 if it was intact with the reclining figure holding his penis and the standing figure with a Jackel Head.
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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aussieguy55 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:00 pm
I wonder what Smith would have made of the Fac 1 if it was intact with the reclining figure holding his penis and the standing figure with a Jackel Head.
He would have mutilated the papyrus by peeling it back and then instruct Reuben Hedlock to fill in the lacuna according to his specifications. That's what he did with Anubis in Fac 3. And the original vignette is missing to this day. I wonder why?

Smith didn't give a damn about the papyrus other than using it to serve his purposes and private translations.

Mormon apologists today don't care about the truth. They have an agenda. Their agenda is founded upon lies.

:mad:

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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We recorded a lengthy part two today, covering the second and third facsimiles.

I simply had to mention the remarkable find of a certain poster here that the lead plate for Fac. 3 originally gave Anubis a snout but for some reason was chiseled away before printing commenced.

Dr. Ritner was suitably impressed with the scholastic acumen required to make this find.
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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consiglieri wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:25 pm
We recorded a lengthy part two today, covering the second and third facsimiles.

I simply had to mention the remarkable find of a certain poster here that the lead plate for Fac. 3 originally gave Anubis a snout but for some reason was chiseled away before printing commenced.

Dr. Ritner was suitably impressed with the scholastic acumen required to make this find.
Shulem and his posts, scholarship, and second token thread are reasons why this board needs to be preserved. What is the King's name again, Dr. Gee? Muhlstein?
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 

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Shulem
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

Post by Shulem »

consiglieri wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:25 pm
We recorded a lengthy part two today, covering the second and third facsimiles.

I simply had to mention the remarkable find of a certain poster here that the lead plate for Fac. 3 originally gave Anubis a snout but for some reason was chiseled away before printing commenced.

Dr. Ritner was suitably impressed with the scholastic acumen required to make this find.
Looking forward to this podcast more than ever! I have to think that it was a richly rewarding experience for you and extremely satisfying to pull that off.

Very glad you mentioned the chiseled snout. The apologists are going to have to deal with it eventually -- their silence on the matter is a sign that they don't want to discuss it let alone think about it. It's a damning piece of evidence to show that the god's face was mutilated in order to meet the design and purpose for Smith's translation in the Times and Seasons. Nobody is going to deny the fact that the original is a jackal head with a jackal eye & ear, but what the hell happened to the nose? This mystery concerning the Joseph Smith papyrus must scare the apologists because it's proof that the papyrus was altered and tampered with in order to coincide with Smith's perceptions of what he wanted expressed -- never mind the original or the idea that Abraham drew the vignette -- it shows that Smith took things into his own hands -- "written by the hand of Smith".

I'll bet this really, really, bothers Gee.

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Shulem
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

Post by Shulem »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:22 pm
Shulem and his posts, scholarship, and second token thread are reasons why this board needs to be preserved. What is the King's name again, Dr. Gee? Muhlstein?
You know, I really, really appreciate you saying that. Sometimes I wonder if my specialized work on the Book of Abraham here on the board is appreciated or has it just become a tiresome rant?

Yeah, the second token thread down in telestial is a real piece of work! It's there to demonstrate just how silly the whole thing is and the meaning behind it that members can't talk about because of the temple gag order. I have to think that if Mormons were to actually talk about it they would come to terms with just how silly it is and lose the desire to practice the ritual.

I have to admit that it did take the use of ALCOHOL to give me the courage to do that thread. I would have been reticent or too afraid to do it because it's so graphic, negative, and insults a sacred ritual had by people who think they are doing something wonderful. If it wasn't for the ALCOHOL, I never would have got that thread off the ground and the token would not have been exposed in that manner.

So, the ALCOHOL, when used, has been a silver lining. Shades doesn't quite get that but that's okay with me. The alcohol gave me the courage to push the villain off the cliff.

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

Post by consiglieri »

Part 2 just went up!
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)

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