Teryl Givens article on BH Roberts - where did it go?

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_moinmoin
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Re: Teryl Givens article on BH Roberts - where did it go?

Post by _moinmoin »

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:41 pm
moinmoin wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:15 pm
Hagoth --- when did you experience "Brother Givens' Traveling Salvation Show?" :) Was it around 2014, or much later? If later, than "boo" for Givens, because he clearly knew better.
The ebb and flow of memory makes me dread a police investigator ever asking me "where were you on the night of...? but an internet search places that fireside in September of 2015.
Then he knew better. [Sigh]. I'd like to know what he was basing his opinion that Roberts didn't believe in the LGT on. Just his own impression?

Roberts continued in his letter to Riter, after the part I quoted: "If this be true [LGT], it might allow of other great stretches of the continents to be inhabited by other peoples, with other cultures and languages, which would still further tend to solve the difficulties of the Book of Mormon in regard to the existence of the great diversity of language stocks among the American race" (ibid, 54).

Do you remember if Givens believed (so, probably believes?) that Roberts lost his belief in the Book of Mormon? That would indicate to me that he didn't have much firsthand familiarity at all with Roberts's own explanations about his studies. Was he saying that if Roberts had considered the LGT, it would have answered all his concerns? That's also disappointing, but again, I've never been a fan of Givens, and I don't think he and his wife are actually very helpful (they do try to be, but their approach makes too many concessions I am not willing to make).

While McMurrin and Madsen (whom those who tout Roberts losing his faith rely solely on) rejoice in the points Roberts brings up in the studies, even they recognize that he didn't personally believe the points he brought up. For example (one of many examples), Roberts acknowledges in his studies the chasm between modern geology and anthropology and the timeline of the Book of Mormon, which they pounce on with delight, but then chide Roberts for his "inability to escape the yoke of a sometimes abject biblical literalism [and] traditional patterns of biblical thought that often tie [him] to an outworn and intellectually frustrating scriptural literalism . . . Despite Roberts’ rather high level of historical and theological sophistication, he failed to distinguish effectively history from myth and legend in the biblical writings, accepting literally such accounts as the Garden of Eden and flood stories of Genesis" (ibid, xxviii and xxiv-xxv). In other words, he actually believed the Bible and Book of Mormon stories literally happened within historic times; yet, the studies point to geological and anthropological time frames as being in conflict with the Book of Mormon. It's actually just as astonishing that McMurrin and Madsen cling to his studies as evidence that he lost his faith, as it is that Givens seems ignorant of or simply ignores Roberts's own explanations.

I'm also fascinated that people seem to gloss over his own explanation: " Let me say once and for all, so as to avoid what might otherwise call for repeated explanation, that what is herein set forth does not represent any conclusions of mine. This report herewith submitted is what it purports to be, namely a ‘study of Book of Mormon origins’ for the information of those who ought to know everything about it pro et con, as well as that which has been produced against it, and that which may be produced against it. I am taking the position that our faith is not only unshaken but unshakable in the Book of Mormon, and therefore we can look without fear upon all that can be said against it. While searching for the answers to the questions of Mr. Couch submitted through Mr. William E. Riter, I came in contact with the material here used, and concluded that while the subject was fresh in my mind to make it of record for those who should be its students and know on what ground the Book of Mormon may be questioned, as well as that which supports its authenticity and its truth… I am very sure that you will find the material herewith submitted of intense interest, and it may be of very great importance since it represents what may be used by some opponent in criticism of the Book of Mormon" (letter to Heber J. Grant, ibid, 57-58).
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Re: Teryl Givens article on BH Roberts - where did it go?

Post by _Hagoth »

moinmoin wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:18 pm
Then he knew better. [Sigh]. I'd like to know what he was basing his opinion that Roberts didn't believe in the LGT on. Just his own impression?
Do you remember if Givens believed (so, probably believes?) that Roberts lost his belief in the Book of Mormon?
As I recall (and I may be totally wrong about this) it was intended to be sort of a mike drop to tell you, "move on, nothing to see here."
moinmoin wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:18 pm
I don't think he and his wife are actually very helpful (they do try to be, but their approach makes too many concessions I am not willing to make).
Fiona was definitely the more entertaining of the two. She stated that she prefers Harry Potter to the Book of Mormon. I was also surprised at the way she seemed quite critical of church leadership, in an eye-rolling sort of way.
moinmoin wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:18 pm
While McMurrin and Madsen (whom those who tout Roberts losing his faith rely solely on) rejoice in the points Roberts brings up in the studies, even they recognize that he didn't personally believe the points he brought up.
It is very possible that Roberts was playing devil's advocate and I have seen later faithful comments from him that suggest his faith was not diminished, but at the same time my overall take from Studies of the Book of Mormon was that he personally came away from this study, if not shaken, then at least looking for some new perspective.

It's been a long time since I read it but some statements that stood out to me were:

Discussing the similarities of anti-Christs who were separated by centuries: "...they are all of one breed and brand; so nearly alike that one mind is the author of them, and that is a young and underdeveloped, but piously inclined mind. The evidence I sorrowfully submit, points to Joseph Smith as their creator. It is difficult to believe that they are the product of history..."(270).

"For these absurdities in expression; these miraculous incidents in warfare; those almost mock - and certainly extravagant - heroics; these lapses of the main characters about conditions obtaining, are certainly just such absurdities and lapses as would be looked for if a person of such limitations as bounded Joseph Smith undertook to put forth a book dealing with the history and civilization of ancient peoples." (277)

"Is all this sober history inspired written and true, representing things that actually happened? Or is it a wonder-tale of an immature mind, unconscious of what a test he is laying on human credulity when asking men to accept his narrative as solemn history?" (283)

Pretty strong words. Was he playing devils advocate? Was he trying to shake up the Q15 to think more deeply about these problems, rather than just pass them off to the smartest guy in the room to solve for them? Was he sincerely questioning the historicity of Book of Mormon? Did he later decide to just settle back into his expected roll and go with the flow?

I dunno.
"Be excellent to each other." - Bill and Ted
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” - Mark Twain
_moinmoin
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Re: Teryl Givens article on BH Roberts - where did it go?

Post by _moinmoin »

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:44 pm

Pretty strong words. Was he playing devils advocate? Was he trying to shake up the Q15 to think more deeply about these problems, rather than just pass them off to the smartest guy in the room to solve for them? Was he sincerely questioning the historicity of Book of Mormon? Did he later decide to just settle back into his expected roll and go with the flow?

I dunno.
It's certainly possible that he lost his faith. When I researched it after my mission, I expected to find just that because of the hype and ballyhoo. I had read DHC (History of the Church, edited and compiled by Roberts) prior to my mission, and I read everything Roberts wrote after my mission (other than Seventies Course in Theology, which I would like to read). Either way, he remains the premier thinker Mormonism has produced, and certainly its most able defender.

His writing/polemic style is along the lines of the harsh things you quoted, and he didn't suffer fools gladly and had no patience for people unwilling to pay the intellectual price necessary. He wasn't afraid to call a spade a spade, even when talking to the president of the Church, and he resented them not taking his warning about future attacks based on Book of Mormon criticisms seriously. He was undiplomatic and harsh, and that shows in his studies. He was even harsher in his marginal notes on items in "The Truth, the Way, the Life" rejected by the Twelve (some name-calling), and the end of his autobiography (dictated to Elsie Cook, one of his missionaries in the mission he presided over, near the end of his life) contains a scathing disagreement with President Grant over changes in the Seventies quorums (he is very convincing to me on the logic of his position, but President Grant had the keys of authority and the final say. He would have lost it with the elimination of stake seventies in the 1980s, and the changes with elders and high priests quorums a couple of years ago).

The things like "wonder story" lines were intended to a) sound like a mocking critic, and b) spur action (i.e., this is what and how these will be thrown at us). With the exception of DNA criticisms (which he couldn't have anticipated), he was dead on as to what the Schwerpunkt of future criticism would be.

I think I really came to know him and where he was from 1922 to his death in 1933 reading letters to others in Special Collections. It made me wish I were independently wealthy and could read all sorts of things in archives!
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Re: Teryl Givens article on BH Roberts - where did it go?

Post by _Hagoth »

moinmoin wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:38 am
The things like "wonder story" lines were intended to a) sound like a mocking critic, and b) spur action (i.e., this is what and how these will be thrown at us). With the exception of DNA criticisms (which he couldn't have anticipated), he was dead on as to what the Schwerpunkt of future criticism would be.
Thank you for that insight moinmoin. I guess maybe it all boils down to who the I is in this statement and whether the sorrow is genuine or feigned: "The evidence I sorrowfully submit, points to Joseph Smith as their creator. It is difficult to believe that they are the product of history..."
"Be excellent to each other." - Bill and Ted
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” - Mark Twain
_moinmoin
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Re: Teryl Givens article on BH Roberts - where did it go?

Post by _moinmoin »

Well, the "I" is he, the speaker, in this study submitted to the apostles. As he explained, he was speaking in the voice of a critic, showing them on what grounds it could be questioned (and why sophisticated attacks along these lines would be a threat to members' faith --- especially young people in an age of increasing inquiry --- if the Church wasn't prepared to competently address them).
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