Three Powerful Books

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Kittens_and_Jesus
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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Kittens_and_Jesus »

MG must be one of the moist successful trolls of all time.

You argue with him as if you don't understand the meaning of his moniker.

His name isn't a joke, you are the joke. He's ____.

I applaud his dedication.
As soon as you concern yourself with the 'good' and 'bad' of your fellows, you create an opening in your heart for maliciousness to enter. Testing, competing with, and criticizing others weaken and defeat you. - O'Sensei

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honorentheos
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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by honorentheos »

Probably. But I tend to think there is value in exposing it for what it is by closing off the escape routes until he is left with full abandonment or finally answering a question sincerely. He's done both in this thread to his own embarrassment.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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Lemmie
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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Lemmie »

Kittens_and_Jesus wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:04 am
MG must be one of the moist successful trolls of all time.

You argue with him as if you don't understand the meaning of his moniker.

His name isn't a joke, you are the joke. He's ____.

I applaud his dedication.
And you’re breaking a moderator’s rule. You may say someone is behaving in a troll-like manner, but calling someone a troll gets your post moved to Telestial. At least, it used to when Mentalgymnast complainEd. Somehow, the dumbest troll of all time managed to convince a mod that calling someone a “troll” is so heinous it shouldn’t be considered free speech.

Don’t ask me. I don’t see the logic either.

honorentheos wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:21 am
...But I tend to think there is value in exposing it for what it is by closing off the escape routes until he is left with full abandonment or finally answering a question sincerely. He's done both in this thread to his own embarrassment.
Agreed. People say they want to hear from LDS, but hearing from them doesn’t have to mean letting their illogical arguments stand.

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Gadianton
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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Gadianton »

MG: "But it is pointless to think/believe that any one of us are NOT immune to Illusory Truth Effect and Mere-exposure Effect. I mean, that’s science, right?"

No it isn't, MG. The 'discoverers' of the "Illusonry Truth Effect and mere-exposure Effect" aren't immune to bias either. We can assume the theory is false, as you assume whatever idea a critic advances is false, on the criteria of author bias.

H: "One of the arguments from the Greatest Guesser fiasco that made me laugh was around the origin of the paper."

I'm glad you brought that up. If ever a paper was a product of sheer unrestrained bias, it's that one. There is no other possible way to account for the existence of the paper. With the credentials they have, absent brainwashing, they could easily be instructed on the countless fundamental errors they made in the paper. HOWEVER --- notice the point was made as an observation or passing comment about the work now and again by critics, but the hundreds and thousands of comments attacking the paper from both critics and believers alike were nearly entirely focused on the substance of the paper.

Notice that interesting correlation. As the quality of work suffers as an effect of bias, criticism of the work glories in the preponderance of obvious errors that are easy to correct. When the work becomes difficult to deal with, "bias" is the objection of last defense. It's instructive how easily MG moves from arguing a position to raising his doctrine of bias. As soon as a critic moves out his first pawn of the game, MG is already going for a stalemate.

Yes, MG's worldview is moronic.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.

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Gadianton
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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Gadianton »

MG isn't a troll. His behavior can be troll-like, especially as conversations go on a long time and irritating people is his last hope, but threads like this one begin with a great deal of sincerity. He really believes in the Church, and he really believes certain discoveries he's made with books like Givens' would convince any impartial observer.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.

mentalgymnast
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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

Lemmie wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:48 pm
If that’s what they indeed are. But then there’s the interpretation of those facts. And our own conditioning...and illusions...that impact those interpretations.

Gets a bit messy. 🤪
that's an extremely concerning statement to make. I sense a non-believer struggling with expectations. My empathies.
As a wise man once suggested, we see through a glass darkly. Just what does that really mean? What is ambiguity if not messy? I can be a believer without having to see everything clearly. Others are less prone to put up with the messiness. Patience may be a factor. Faith, in my opinion, is the engine which motivates us to learn and grow both intellectually and spiritually. Take away one or the other of those and we are stunted in our opportunities for full self-actualization.

That’s been my experience.

Regards,
MG

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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

honorentheos wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:13 pm
MG acting like the greatest cause in the universe is defense of some good against increasing evil...
Sure, it’s important to fight corruption and evil. More importantly on an individual level though?
Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof, if we pursue the path that leads to it; and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God.”
That’s paramount. I think that is God’s wish and desire for His children.
honorentheos wrote: [MG holds] onto the possibilty of a creator god and that is what matters.
I think that does matter, yes.

Regards,
MG

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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

honorentheos wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:26 pm
...you don't think evidence matters in determining truth or you should explain how you see evidence working to overcome a bias.
Evidence is nice to have. It will also either support or not support biases already held. But because all the evidence is not in and we find contradictory evidence in some instances, we find ourselves choosing faith vs. faithlessness. What I’ve been arguing all along is that it is at that juncture...choosing...that we are subject to other influences. And they are many.

It is those influences that steer us towards belief or non-belief. And some of those influences are connected with our own psychological health and well being.

Regards,
MG

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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

Gadianton wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:23 am
MG: "But it is pointless to think/believe that any one of us are NOT immune to Illusory Truth Effect and Mere-exposure Effect. I mean, that’s science, right?"

Gadianton: No it isn't, MG. The 'discoverers' of the "Illusonry Truth Effect and mere-exposure Effect" aren't immune to bias either. We can assume the theory is false, as you assume whatever idea a critic advances is false, on the criteria of author bias.
One of these things is not like the other,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the other
By the time I finish my song?

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast
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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

Gadianton wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:27 am
MG isn't a troll. His behavior can be troll-like, especially as conversations go on a long time and irritating people is his last hope, but threads like this one begin with a great deal of sincerity. He really believes in the Church, and he really believes certain discoveries he's made with books like Givens' would convince any impartial observer.
But none of us are impartial. That’s where we come up against a sticky wicket.

In one form/way or another that’s the argument I’ve been making.

I do agree with you. I’m no more a troll than anyone else here is. Although I can think of one or two folks I’d be hard pressed to not admit to thinking that their behavior, at times, is troll like.

Regards,
MG

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Dr Exiled
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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Dr Exiled »

MG:

Why is belief in Mormonism necessary in your mind? Why is it necessary to even consider it? Your above comment about "choosing faith v. faithlessness" is artificial and wouldn't even come up unless some Mormon missionary came knocking and presented the false dichotomy.

Surely you have to admit that there isn't much by way of evidence to support Mormon claims. The rock and the hat was hidden from view or at least pushed to the side for over 100 years. Dr. Jenkins publicly pointed out to poor departed Dr. Hamblin that there isn't any evidence to support Nephites/Lamanites in the new world. Adam Clarke seems to be more of a father to Mormonism than the god with whom Joseph Smith claimed to be communicating. Today, "revelation" is in the form of scheduling changes and legal documents. President Nelson isn't going around supposedly healing the masses like Joseph Smith supposedly did when there was a cholera outbreak in Nauvoo. Today, the leadership seems more preoccupied with the Wall Street Journal than anything else. The meetings are monotonous. The temple is just more busy work when one realizes that Jesus or President Nelson could easily do the work for all at once. Jesus did it for everyone and so why not temple work for everyone? I guess getting members to give loyalty oaths to the church, over and over again, is a thing.
Last edited by Dr Exiled on Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 

mentalgymnast
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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by mentalgymnast »

Gadianton wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:23 am
Yes, MG's worldview is moronic.
Moron:
1 a very stupid person.

2 a person affected with mild intellectual disability.
Where do I go from here... :wink:

Apparently my worldview doesn’t match with yours. I guess that says something.

Thanks,
MG

Lemmie
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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Lemmie »

Gadianton wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:27 am
MG isn't a troll. His behavior can be troll-like, especially as conversations go on a long time and irritating people is his last hope,
you are correct in calling mentalgymnast’s behavior “troll-like” rather than the obvious option. Now’s not the time to burden the mods with unnecessary tasks, right? Lol.
Gadianton wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:23 am

H: "One of the arguments from the Greatest Guesser fiasco that made me laugh was around the origin of the paper."

I'm glad you brought that up. If ever a paper was a product of sheer unrestrained bias, it's that one. There is no other possible way to account for the existence of the paper. With the credentials they have, absent brainwashing, they could easily be instructed on the countless fundamental errors they made in the paper. HOWEVER --- notice the point was made as an observation or passing comment about the work now and again by critics, but the hundreds and thousands of comments attacking the paper from both critics and believers alike were nearly entirely focused on the substance of the paper.
Regarding the Dales’ paper, I am quite surprised to see they plan to present it again.

Themis
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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Themis »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:58 am
Evidence is nice to have. It will also either support or not support biases already held.
LOL The evidence did not support my bias, but it was more then enough to overcome those bias's. Probably because some of us have less over all bias then others.
But because all the evidence is not in and we find contradictory evidence in some instances, we find ourselves choosing faith vs. faithlessness. What I’ve been arguing all along is that it is at that juncture...choosing...that we are subject to other influences. And they are many.
All the evidence will never be in. This is wrong thinking. What we look for is sufficient evidence to make conclusions. That is all we can do. Insisting in all evidence being in is just a justification to continue believing what you want. This suggests a high level of bias.
It is those influences that steer us towards belief or non-belief. And some of those influences are connected with our own psychological health and well being.
It's all belief. Better to follow the evidence when looking at what is most reasonable to believe MG, instead of what you are doing.
42

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honorentheos
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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by honorentheos »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:58 am
honorentheos wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:26 pm
...you don't think evidence matters in determining truth or you should explain how you see evidence working to overcome a bias.
Evidence is nice to have. It will also either support or not support biases already held.

But because all the evidence is not in and we find contradictory evidence in some instances, we find ourselves choosing faith vs. faithlessness.

What I’ve been arguing all along is that it is at that juncture...choosing...that we are subject to other influences. And they are many.

It is those influences that steer us towards belief or non-belief. And some of those influences are connected with our own psychological health and well being.

Regards,
MG
That's bananas. You are effectively saying evidence doesn't matter because there is always a chance new evidence can come in so ultimately you just choose to believe. And then justify that belief based on "influence". That's garbage.

It's true we can't know many, many things - really almost everything - with certitude so we have to make judgments to how probable a thing is or not based on the evidence we have. But that's not relying on faith or faithlessness. That's saying based on what we know now and the probability new evidence is capable of overturning that understanding, what seems most likely to me is "X". And using that to move forward with an acknowledged limit on what we know or don't about a thing.

It's why I can say I have a good deal of confidence the Book of Mormon is not a historical record. The evidence needed to overturn that would be seismic requiring DNA, archeology, biology, religious studies, world history, and numerous other fields to be so far off that we may as well have never left the 1500s. Is more evidence coming in? Sure. But it's incredibly improbable it will shake things up so much I have to toss my current understanding in the bin and start over. On the other hand, Book of Mormon apologetics is reframing the Book of Mormon every other weekend. We have EmodE, LGT, heartland, inspired fiction, Hemispheric literal, etc., etc. You read new books like the three in the OP looking for that thing that finally snaps it all into place. That's your bias struggling with the probabilities the evidence is clearly laying out. You use faith as a fulcrum to rebalance the scale in what is clearly a ridiculous exercise when viewed from a distance.

Now, when it comes to God belief I tend to have a spectrum of probability. Is the God of the OT, the New Testament, of Mormonism, of Islam likely to be real? Very improbable. So much so I have no issues living life according to an understanding those religious descriptions of an intervening creator deity are very unlikely to suddenly become the best explanation for the evidence we have around us. But is it possible there is/was something with some form of intelligence on the other side of the Big Bang? Hard to say. The BB is an event horizon beyond which we apparently can't know much about. Accordingly, I'm agnostic about that. I don't know how it affects me either way. Are we in a simulation? Less likely but maybe. Is there something beyond our three dimensional view of the universe that could, upon discovery really shake things up? Yeah, that could happen. Maybe anyway. And it could really flip things on its head. But what it incredibly unlikely to do is make Mormonism true or the Semitic myths the West inherited and evolved become literal.

It won't make the church in Salt Lake right about LGBT issues or Glen Beck right about US history. It won't make responsible alcohol consumption a moral issue or sex outside of marriage the most corrupted act next to taking another human life. It won't make having two earrings in one ear evil, or wearing a white shirt and a Norman Rockwell haircut virtuous.

And it won't make the Book of Mormon true.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa

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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Joseph Smith was a well known treasure digger from a family that itself was well known for being superstitious and constantly looking for a get rich quick scheme.

We know that nobody ever really saw the gold plates.

We know that the gold plates were not used in the "translation" of the Book of Mormon.

We know that the Book of Mormon bears striking resemblance to other contemporary books, especially one that Joseph Smith's chief scribe, Oliver Cowdery, was quite familiar with.

We know Joseph Smith plagiarized much of his "translation" of the Bible.

We know that Joseph Smith was blatantly wrong in his "translation" of the Book of Abraham.

We know that Joseph Smith was fooled by the Kinderhook plates hoax.

We know that Joseph Smith never told anyone about the so-called "first vision" until over a decade after it happened, and after the church had been formed, and then changed his story about it several times before he died.

We know that he used his position of power to rape and sexually assault many women and girls, and used that power and influence to trick many women and girls into "marrying" him, regardless of their age or current marital status.

We know that he plagiarized much of the temple endowment from masonry.

We know that he engaged in an illegal banking scheme.

We know that he ordered the destruction of a newspaper printing press after it printed the truth about his secret polygamy.

Yet we are supposed to believe this is the guy "God" chose to be his so-called "prophet"? Is that about right? MG is beholden to a joke of a religion and no matter how many ‘nuanced’ angles he takes to compartmentalize his thinking he can’t avoid the irrefutable evidences of history and outright fraud and abuse of his followers.

Facts are real’er than feels. It is what it is.

- Doc

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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by moksha »

Lemmie wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:28 am
Somehow, the dumbest troll of all time managed to convince a mod that calling someone a “troll” is so heinous it shouldn’t be considered free speech.
That is quite a feat of mental gymnastics. Did the mod fully regain the use of his senses later on?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace

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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Lemmie »

moksha wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:25 pm
Lemmie wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:28 am
Somehow, the dumbest troll of all time managed to convince a mod that calling someone a “troll” is so heinous it shouldn’t be considered free speech.
That is quite a feat of mental gymnastics. Did the mod fully regain the use of his senses later on?
Lol, you do like to start ____, don't you?!

To answer your question, yes. The mods here are brilliant and wise, beyond comprehension.

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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Temp. Admin. »

Lemmie wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:28 am
Somehow, the dumbest troll of all time managed to convince a mod that calling someone a “troll” is so heinous it shouldn’t be considered free speech.
Material that's reclassified to the Telestial Forum magically becomes considered to not be free speech?

That's news to me.

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honorentheos
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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by honorentheos »

Temp. Admin. wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:22 pm
Lemmie wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:28 am
Somehow, the dumbest troll of all time managed to convince a mod that calling someone a “troll” is so heinous it shouldn’t be considered free speech.
Material that's reclassified to the Telestial Forum magically becomes considered to not be free speech?

That's news to me.
Is calling out a person's behavior as "trolling" or calling a person behaving like a troll a "troll" a personal attack in the way it's typically applied in Terrestrial to justify moving it? I wouldn't think so if the shoe fits, which suggests it's being relegated to a lower traffic forum is at least some type of attempt to curtail or infringe on a person's speech. It's not clear that the action was impartial so...
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa

Lemmie
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Re: Three Powerful Books

Post by Lemmie »

Temp. Admin. wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:22 pm
Lemmie wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:28 am
Somehow, the dumbest troll of all time managed to convince a mod that calling someone a “troll” is so heinous it shouldn’t be considered free speech.
Material that's reclassified to the Telestial Forum magically becomes considered to not be free speech?

That's news to me.
I should have specified, not free speech in the sense that it was not free speech that was allowed in Terrestrial, and therefore would be consigned to a lesser Kingdom.

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