New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Shulem
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Robert F. Smith wrote:Yes, the printing plates degraded over the years, and, in any case, these are not scenes of masturbation (which Chuck Larson put into facsimile 1). Indeed, it is likely that both the bird-serpent and the seated falcon-wing-backed god are ithyphallic -- representing procreative power. Jews in late antiquity are known to have used phallic emphasis in some representations of their God, YHWH,[1] not to mention the scholars who sometimes find phallic symbolism in the Bible (I Samuel 2:1,10, II Samuel 22:3 = Psalm 18:2, Job 16:15, Psalms 75:4-5, 89:17,24, Luke 1:69, etc.).[2] Anti-LDS Egyptologist S. Mercer described register 2:7 as follows:
The seated god is Min-Amun-Re, sometimes called AArm-raising Horus,@ ATall-plumed son of Osiris,@ AHorus strong-armed,@ ASovereign of all the gods!@[4] The Neheb-ka figure opposite is a composite animal holding a Wd3t-eye in its paws. The Wd3t is Athe full, healed and intact eye@of Horus or of Re, is Athe symbol of divine life which can overcome death,@[5] i.e., the Wd3t is an amulet.

The Neheb-ka is a taker away of power and a bestower of powers, with authority from the Great Ennead of Atum, i.e., the Divine Council, or is seen as seven uraei exalted and identified with the Bull of the Tribunal-Ennead (see Faulkner on Coffin Texts 85-88 [II, 51-54]).[6] The ka-element in Neheb-ka has been translated variously as Aghost, phantom@ (Edfu, IV, 266, 7; Shipwrecked Sailor, 114), Aspirit, soul; essence; personality; fortune; fate; will (of king); kingship; goodwill; genius; guardian spirit; power; double@[7] (Pyramid Text 587), Ahyper-physical vital force.@[8]

[1] J. Campbell, The Masks of God, III: Occidental Mythology, 273-276.
[2] W. A. Smalley in M. Black and W. A. Smalley, eds., On Language, Culture, and Religion, 365.
[3] S. Mercer, Utah Survey, I/1:24.
[4] M. Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, I:204.
[5] Bleeker, Hathor and Thoth, 125, citing Kristensen, Het leven uit de dood (1949), 26-27; A. Gardiner, Egyptian Grammar, 3rd ed., '266:1; Urkunden, V, 37, 13.
[6] Cf. Shorter, AThe God Nehebkau,@ JEA, 21 (1935):46B47.
[7] J. Wilson, Culture of Ancient Egypt, 86,299 n. 27; J. Zandee, Death as an Enemy, 184; LES, 68, 19; Gardiner, JEA, 36:7 n. 2; Greven, Ka in Theologie und Königskult des alten Reiches, reviewed by Faulkner, JEA, 41:141; Albright, From the Stone Age to Christianity (1940), 130; Albright, VESO, 26, 61, and XVII.C, citing ZÄS, 48:152-159; 54:56-64; JEA, 5:64.
[8] S. Morenz, Egyptian Religion, 170.
Oh, I'm sooooooooooo scared that you know your Egyptology!!!!

:surprised:

What will I do???

Hey, Robert-baby, what's the king's name in Facsimile No. 3?

What happened to Anubis's nose?

:twisted:

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Shulem
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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King's name?

Anubis's nose?


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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Wait. What? Robert Smith... Do you deny the "masturbation" hieroglyphics explaind by Robert R?

Come on man?
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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99% of Egyptian scholar know that the a Egyptian God "seeded" the worlds after masturbation. This is common knowledge?

I think this is why Dr Ritner was so frustrated. His own students are lying about history and science.
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Smith is attempting to keep things in the old grooves of Nibley's interpretations from the 1950's-1970's. I used to research in this groove as well. Notice that none of his sources are recent, but are literally over 50 years old. The idea appears to me to be, hey lookit here, I can put together 20 or more sources, so my view must be correct. Notice he has done NOTHING to refute Ritner's understanding, he is just regurgitating Nibley's old propaganda. It just does not convince. Robert Smith is the one in way over his head.
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Philo Sofee wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:47 am
Smith is attempting to keep things in the old grooves of Nibley's interpretations from the 1950's-1970's. I used to research in this groove as well. Notice that none of his sources are recent, but are literally over 50 years old. The idea appears to me to be, hey lookit here, I can put together 20 or more sources, so my view must be correct. Notice he has done NOTHING to refute Ritner's understanding, he is just regurgitating Nibley's old propaganda. It just does not convince. Robert Smith is the one in way over his head.
Yeah, I hear what you're saying. It's hard to stomach what Smith says because he's so illogical, biased, and defensive. He acts like he's so scholarly and informed but in reality he has boxed himself into a very small compartment and just repeats himself and cites references that do little to support what J SMITH actually claimed.

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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I must have missed this in the interview, but did Ritner say that written Egyptian isn’t actually more space efficient than written Hebrew? I did hear him confirm that Egyptian as a compressed symbolic language was common belief in Joseph’s day. Wouldn’t it be a sort of instant death anachronism if written Egyptian turned out to be the same or less space efficient than written Hebrew? “Reformed Egyptian” as an anachronism, doesn’t work if Joseph was wrong about how Egyptian writing worked. And that one strikes at the very premise of a space limited set of gold plates, making the plates themselves more likely a fabrication.

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Dr Moore wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:05 am
I must have missed this in the interview, but did Ritner say that written Egyptian isn’t actually more space efficient than written Hebrew? I did hear him confirm that Egyptian as a compressed symbolic language was common belief in Joseph’s day. Wouldn’t it be a sort of instant death anachronism if written Egyptian turned out to be the same or less space efficient than written Hebrew? “Reformed Egyptian” as an anachronism, doesn’t work if Joseph was wrong about how Egyptian writing worked. And that one strikes at the very premise of a space limited set of gold plates, making the plates themselves more likely a fabrication.
The hieroglyphic definitely could not be more space efficient. My suspicion is Demotic later on was a more abbreviated form rather than the pictorial hieroglyphs.......if I remember correctly, this shift occurred approx. by 600 B.C. The language as well as how it was written evolved, but of course.
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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The idea that Egyptian characters contained great amounts of information wherein a single character could contain whole sentences or even a paragraph is something Smith & Cowdery Co., ASSsumed early when they first wrote the Book of Mormon using gold plates and reformed Egyptian as a backdrop -- props for the story. This assumption is demonstrated or fleshed out in the Kirtland Egyptian papers wherein whole paragraphs are translated from single characters. This is proof that Smith thought that Egyptian was a language that took up far less space than Hebrew. Smith introduced this concept into his Book of Mormon narrative.

The whole idea of so-called Reformed Egyptian taking less space is a fatal flaw and just goes to show that Smith couldn't read Egyptian.

Does anyone here honestly think Smith could translate Egyptian? What's the king's name?! :twisted:

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Shulem, what have you been able to learn about the actual space efficiency, or inefficiency, of Egyptian writing, as compared with Hebrew? If Hebrew writing is a 1.000 in terms of a normalized space efficiency, what range would Egyptian be?

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Here I expect the answer may be complicated by the different forms of Egyptian that have existed over time historically. From hieroglyphs to Hieratic to Demotic and even Meroitic.

If Abraham had really written on papyri in Egyptian, he would have used hieroglyphs.

But the glyphs on the papyri are mostly Demotic from around 1,500 years later.
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Dr Moore wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:49 pm
Shulem, what have you been able to learn about the actual space efficiency, or inefficiency, of Egyptian writing, as compared with Hebrew? If Hebrew writing is a 1.000 in terms of a normalized space efficiency, what range would Egyptian be?
Thanks for asking but I'm afraid I will have to disappoint you. This particular has been something I've purposely elected to ignore because this along with the thickness of the Joseph Smith papyri has been something that I have had little interest because for me it's pointless and up until now has been of little interest. Suddenly, however, it has become an issue because it implicates Smith in making false assumptions that are expressed in the very narrative of the Book of Mormon text.

It's common knowledge that Gee has miscalculated a papyrus roll thickness formula but he is fully qualified in determining the space requirements of hieroglyphic writing needed to compose the Book of Abraham. I have to think he's made a rudimentary measurement if not an entire production. It would be quite lengthy to say the least.

Comparing the textual space and length of Hebrew with Egyptian is outside my expertise (I don't know Hebrew!) -- I simply can't comment. I don't have any bookmarked sites on this particular study. I have to think more shall be revealed. Things are enfolding! Maybe somebody here knows more? Or maybe someone can email Gee and ask him for a reference?

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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This was an interesting paper available on Google scholar "The Presentation of Elite Masculinity and sexuality in Formal and Informal Art during the New Kingdom.
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Interesting paper https://brill.com/view/book/edcoll/9789 ... 67_028.xml Male bodies and the construction of masculinity in New Kingdom Egyptian Art.
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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[quote=consiglieri post_id=1234268 time=1596942233 user_id=555]
Here I expect the answer may be complicated by the different forms of Egyptian that have existed over time historically. From hieroglyphs to Hieratic to Demotic and even Meroitic.

If Abraham had really written on papyri in Egyptian, he would have used hieroglyphs.

But the glyphs on the papyri are mostly Demotic from around 1,500 years later.
[/quote]

smac97 gives you a mention in a long blast against Ritner.
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Consiglieri, this post from Mormon D&D clearly shows that the Reformed Egyptians killed Abraham:

Image

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/73 ... interview/
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham wrote:
Some have assumed that the hieroglyphs adjacent to and surrounding facsimile 1 must be a source for the text of the book of Abraham. But this claim rests on the assumption that a vignette and its adjacent text must be associated in meaning. In fact, it was not uncommon for ancient Egyptian vignettes to be placed some distance from their associated commentary.
The Essay is trying to trick its less informed readers by trying to get them to take their eyes off the ball. The Church wants us to think its possible that the hieroglyphic writing flanking the original vignette of Facsimile No. 1 may not actually be associated with the vignette but may serve another purpose. In other words, just because the scene with Abraham on the lion couch is surrounded with funerary spells doesn't mean that those spells have anything to do with the picture but could refer to another vignette (now lost) further down the roll or an attachment. The Church is attempting to trick its readers and is being totally deceptive. The Church is lying. The Church is really good at lying. That is what they do, professionally!



Image

HERE COMES THE LASER!

Bear in mind, the Church says: "In fact, it was not uncommon for ancient Egyptian vignettes to be placed some distance from their associated commentary."

Now let's test this deceptive theory and plug it into Facsimile No. 3 and see if it works
Joseph Smith wrote:Fig. 2. King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head.
Is there any chance that the characters given above the head are not the characters that Smith referred to?

Joseph Smith wrote:Fig. 4. Prince of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, as written above the hand.
Is there any chance that the characters written above the hand are not the characters that Smith referred to?

The Church CANNOT separate the text from the image. They are inseparably connected together.

Joseph Smith was WRONG!

If you don't agree with me, prove me wrong if you think you can.

:twisted:

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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On Facebook Colby Townsend states basically there was no Abraham Rick Bennett has done an excellent interview with him. His views on the Exodus and Conquest are sure to upset Robert Smith.
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Shulem
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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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aussieguy55 wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:26 pm
His views on the Exodus and Conquest are sure to upset Robert Smith.
One of my favorite subjects in which I spent years investigating in developing wacky theories of my own.

Bottom line: The tale of the Exodus and the lore that is written in the bible is nothing more than bunk and can easily be dismissed.

Hey, Robert Smith, you JACKASS, what's the king's name who drowned in the Red Sea?

What's the king's name in Facsimile No. 3?

Robert Smith is a jackass dope.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Robert Smith is Egyptian poop.

:twisted:

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Re: New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Robert Ritner

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Hey, William Schryver, baby; it's Shulem. I'm here man. What's the king's name in Facsimile No. 3?

Come on William, you know what's up, baby.

Come back, man.

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We miss u! We need u.

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