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 Post subject: What I would Say to an Atheist
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:35 pm 
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If nothing good lasts forever, then that means a time will come when the state of the universe will be essentially as if humanity had never existed. My conscience won't let me accept that fate for the universe. My conscience forces me to take one of two approaches. Either I must become the person that figures out how to preserve some good things forever, or else I must assume that person already exists, and attempt to unite with that person in Her/His efforts to preserve some good things forever. I recognize that the first approach is beyond me, so I have concentrated on the second one. This is the entire reason why I believe in God.

For the atheists on this forum, I guess I'd just like to ask them what they feel like their consciences require them to do for future generations of humanity. Is the next generation after us just one step closer to the extinction of the species? Can your conscience live with that? Or does your conscience require you to work toward an improved world for future generations? And a world that will keep on improving as time goes on?

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 Post subject: Re: What I would Say to an Atheist
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:37 pm 
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KevinSim wrote:
If nothing good lasts forever, then that means a time will come when the state of the universe will be essentially as if humanity had never existed. My conscience won't let me accept that fate for the universe.


This is called "Wishful Thinking"

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For the atheists on this forum, I guess I'd just like to ask them what they feel like their consciences require them to do for future generations of humanity. Is the next generation after us just one step closer to the extinction of the species? Can your conscience live with that? Or does your conscience require you to work toward an improved world for future generations? And a world that will keep on improving as time goes on?


I think humanity is best served by fighting against our obvious tendency to believe things without reason. A world filled with people who are strongly connected to reality will be a vast improvement over the one we now live in.

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 Post subject: Re: What I would Say to an Atheist
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:45 pm 
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I Think when it is all said and done, humans will have had a relatively short existence on earth and the universe when compared to other more successful species. Whether we like that or not doesn't really matter.

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 Post subject: Re: What I would Say to an Atheist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:46 am 
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KevinSim wrote:
If nothing good lasts forever, then that means a time will come when the state of the universe will be essentially as if humanity had never existed. My conscience won't let me accept that fate for the universe. My conscience forces me to take one of two approaches. Either I must become the person that figures out how to preserve some good things forever, or else I must assume that person already exists, and attempt to unite with that person in Her/His efforts to preserve some good things forever. I recognize that the first approach is beyond me, so I have concentrated on the second one. This is the entire reason why I believe in God.

For the atheists on this forum, I guess I'd just like to ask them what they feel like their consciences require them to do for future generations of humanity. Is the next generation after us just one step closer to the extinction of the species? Can your conscience live with that? Or does your conscience require you to work toward an improved world for future generations? And a world that will keep on improving as time goes on?


To which this agnostic would answer: "take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself: sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

Instead of worrying about the end of all things, I instead focus my efforts on enjoying my life, and all experiences that come with it.

Instead of imagining the fate of the universe in 1000 years, think about the changes on earth if not a single human being believed in the divinity of Allah or Christ? How different (and I'd say better) the world would be...

People could just be people here and now, and not worry all the time about how best to please a make-believe genie in the sky.

Imagine how much better Mormons could make the world around them if they dedicated the hours they spent at the temple for worthwhile things that had practical uses? Mormons are huge time-wasters in that regard...


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 Post subject: Re: What I would Say to an Atheist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:31 am 
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KevinSim wrote:
If nothing good lasts forever, then that means a time will come when the state of the universe will be essentially as if humanity had never existed. My conscience won't let me accept that fate for the universe. My conscience forces me to take one of two approaches. Either I must become the person that figures out how to preserve some good things forever, or else I must assume that person already exists, and attempt to unite with that person in Her/His efforts to preserve some good things forever. I recognize that the first approach is beyond me, so I have concentrated on the second one. This is the entire reason why I believe in God.

For the atheists on this forum, I guess I'd just like to ask them what they feel like their consciences require them to do for future generations of humanity. Is the next generation after us just one step closer to the extinction of the species? Can your conscience live with that? Or does your conscience require you to work toward an improved world for future generations? And a world that will keep on improving as time goes on?


I don't think it really matters what we as individuals or a species want. The universe doesn't exist to please us. If we all disappeared tomorrow, nature would continue, just as it did when the dinosaurs died.

I don't especially like this idea. I don't like the thought of my own eventual death and the death of those whom I love. However, wishful thinking doesn't get me anywhere either. Just because I hope that my existence will continue doesn't mean that it will continue in reality.

As for how my conscience feels about it, again, even if I was horrified and harangued by the idea of my own demise, there is not much I can do to stop it. I will die, just as you and everyone you know and love will die. It's just the way the universe works.

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 Post subject: Re: What I would Say to an Atheist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:31 am 
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KevinSim wrote:
If nothing good lasts forever, then that means a time will come when the state of the universe will be essentially as if humanity had never existed. My conscience won't let me accept that fate for the universe. My conscience forces me to take one of two approaches. Either I must become the person that figures out how to preserve some good things forever, or else I must assume that person already exists, and attempt to unite with that person in Her/His efforts to preserve some good things forever. I recognize that the first approach is beyond me, so I have concentrated on the second one. This is the entire reason why I believe in God.

For the atheists on this forum, I guess I'd just like to ask them what they feel like their consciences require them to do for future generations of humanity. Is the next generation after us just one step closer to the extinction of the species? Can your conscience live with that? Or does your conscience require you to work toward an improved world for future generations? And a world that will keep on improving as time goes on?


As an atheist, and in many ways because of it, my conscience does require I work toward an improved world for both this and future generations, a world that will keep improving as time goes on. To me, this means doing whatever I can to ensure all living beings have a good quality of life. While there are a number of effective disciplines that address this, the most powerful tool we have to discover effective solutions to poor quality of life issues is science, and thus, I work toward this improved future by promoting science in as many ways as I can.

Today, this means supporting the science that will preserve the planet, eliminate poverty, improve healthcare, provide world-wide education, make space on the planet for both humans and non-humans, and much more. I have no idea what the issues will be far in the future, but I do believe if quality of life is maintained until life no longer exists, it will have been primarily due to science.

The thing is, you are looking for a way to ensure "good things" last for eternity, though you have never, despite having been asked numerous times, defined what those good things are. Or, if have you, I've missed it in the deluge of posts you've written on this subject.

But you know it is impossible for mankind to ensure these "good things" will last forever, and that feels so tragic that you, like most people, wish it weren't so. So you rely on a supernatural being to grant you your wish, and you call that being god. But that god is every bit as much a fantasy as Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. Our universe will go extinct, and there are no magic wands to wave to make it otherwise.

I assure you, you don't have to believe in a god to realize how beyond miraculous it is that we, our fellow beings, our planet, our universe, and our consciousness came to exist. I also assure you many atheists, including me, feel that same tragedy you do that it will all one day disappear. So, no, I am not fine knowing the next generation is one step closer to extinction. But it is what it is, and the fact is, I believe life is much more wondrous and precious to me precisely because it will one day cease to exist.

In fact, I know that if I believed a supernatural being would ensure all living beings, or all "good things," whatever that means, would last for eternity, it would diminish that profound sense of awe and wonder I have for all that is good about life today. For me, it would do the exact opposite of what it seems to do for you.

Finally, you ask this same question in some variation every couple of months. Why?

Elphaba

Edited to add "have" to sentence.

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Last edited by Elphaba on Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What I would Say to an Atheist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:16 am 
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KevinSim wrote:
For the atheists on this forum, I guess I'd just like to ask them what they feel like their consciences require them to do for future generations of humanity. Is the next generation after us just one step closer to the extinction of the species? Can your conscience live with that? Or does your conscience require you to work toward an improved world for future generations? And a world that will keep on improving as time goes on?


Considering that atheism and nihilism are not the same thing, I'm curious to understand the significance of this question for you. What about atheism causes you to think that this question is important to ask the atheist, in virtue of their atheism?


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 Post subject: Re: What I would Say to an Atheist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:19 am 
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Elphaba wrote:
KevinSim wrote:
If nothing good lasts forever, then that means a time will come when the state of the universe will be essentially as if humanity had never existed. My conscience won't let me accept that fate for the universe. My conscience forces me to take one of two approaches. Either I must become the person that figures out how to preserve some good things forever, or else I must assume that person already exists, and attempt to unite with that person in Her/His efforts to preserve some good things forever. I recognize that the first approach is beyond me, so I have concentrated on the second one. This is the entire reason why I believe in God.

For the atheists on this forum, I guess I'd just like to ask them what they feel like their consciences require them to do for future generations of humanity. Is the next generation after us just one step closer to the extinction of the species? Can your conscience live with that? Or does your conscience require you to work toward an improved world for future generations? And a world that will keep on improving as time goes on?


As an atheist, and in many ways because of it, my conscience does require I work toward an improved world for both this and future generations, a world that will keep improving as time goes on. To me, this means doing whatever I can to ensure all living beings have a good quality of life. While there are a number of effective disciplines that address this, the most powerful tool we have to discover effective solutions to poor quality of life issues is science, and thus, I work toward this improved future by promoting science in as many ways as I can.

Today, this means supporting the science that will preserve the planet, eliminate poverty, improve healthcare, provide world-wide education, make space on the planet for both humans and non-humans, and much more. I have no idea what the issues will be far in the future, but I do believe if quality of life is maintained until life no longer exists, it will have been primarily due to science.

The thing is, you are looking for a way to ensure "good things" last for eternity, though you have never, despite having been asked numerous times, defined what those good things are. Or, if have you, I've missed it in the deluge of posts you've written on this subject.

But you know it is impossible for mankind to ensure these "good things" will last forever, and that feels so tragic that you, like most people, wish it weren't so. So you rely on a supernatural being to grant you your wish, and you call that being god. But that god is every bit as much a fantasy as Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. Our universe will go extinct, and there are no magic wands to wave to make it otherwise.

I assure you, you don't to believe in a god to realize how beyond miraculous it is that we, our fellow beings, our planet, our universe, and our consciousness came to exist. I also assure you many atheists, including me, feel that same tragedy you do that it will all one day disappear. So, no, I am not fine knowing the next generation is one step closer to extinction. But it is what it is, and the fact is, I believe life is much more wondrous and precious to me precisely because it will one day cease to exist.

In fact, I know that if I believed a supernatural being would ensure all living beings, or all "good things," whatever that means, would last for eternity, it would diminish that profound sense of awe and wonder I have for all that is good about life today. For me, it would do the exact opposite of what it seems to do for you.

Finally, you ask this same question in some variation every couple of months. Why?

Elphaba


Wonderful post, Elphaba. I share your views.

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 Post subject: Re: What I would Say to an Atheist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:25 am 
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Maksutov wrote:
Wonderful post, Elphaba. I share your views.


Indeed. Well said, and thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: What I would Say to an Atheist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:51 am 
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There are tragedies in Christianity as well. A good example is the 2nd coming. As a believer, the idea of the second coming used to fill me with fear.

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 Post subject: Re: What I would Say to an Atheist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:11 am 
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KevinSim wrote:
If nothing good lasts forever, then that means a time will come when the state of the universe will be essentially as if humanity had never existed.


Well, at least you show an understanding of entropy.

KevinSim wrote:
My conscience won't let me accept that fate for the universe. My conscience forces me to take one of two approaches. Either I must become the person that figures out how to preserve some good things forever, or else I must assume that person already exists, and attempt to unite with that person in Her/His efforts to preserve some good things forever. I recognize that the first approach is beyond me, so I have concentrated on the second one. This is the entire reason why I believe in God.


Just because your brain doesn't like entropy, doesn't mean that it's not happening. Your assumption that person must exist is a resolution to your own existential crisis. Your terrifying realization that you and your ilk are temporary and helpless in the face of universal realities pushes you to find a psychological resolution.

KevinSim wrote:
For the atheists on this forum, I guess I'd just like to ask them what they feel like their consciences require them to do for future generations of humanity.


I vote for people who are progressive in their scientific and environmental policies. Preserving our biosphere for future generations is key for humanity to get to the place your wishful thinking believes we need to be. We also realize that it is through science that our technological advances have propelled us to this point where we have and can continue to transcend our historically natural state.

KevinSim wrote:
Is the next generation after us just one step closer to the extinction of the species? Can your conscience live with that?


I think, if we can keep our ____ together long enough, that rather than an extinction of our species we will experience an evolution... A transcendence. The only that will help us escape our fate, the life sentence of living and expiring on planet Earth, is to continue to make advances in our collective interests.

KevinSim wrote:
Or does your conscience require you to work toward an improved world for future generations? And a world that will keep on improving as time goes on?


Sure, but it's done through the body politic. I do small stuff on my level... Like giving a bum some cash, paying for a stranger's meal, eating a healthy diet, reducing my consumerism... But I believe the Big Picture requires moving away from superstitious beliefs, focusing on realities, and figuring out the best and most humane way ahead for all us.

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 Post subject: Re: What I would Say to an Atheist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:24 am 
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Humans have only occupied the planet for a short time geologically and if we don't overpopulate and destroy our resource base, we could enjoy a long history if we can overcome many of our short sighted inclinations.

Most of the species that have inhabited the planet are extinct and because our sun may burn for another 4 billion years, the species that observe that finality will be far different from us, just as we are far different from those species living on earth 100 million years ago. So we truly occupy a small window of geologic time, which means life should be an emergency, so to speak.

For the majority of the world's population, things are not that great. The fortunate minority living in first world democratic nations should first of all feel really lucky. You've probably read the statistic that nearly six million children under the age of five die each year from preventable causes, and many third world nation's residents live on a few dollars a day, have little food or fresh water, are accosted by disease and live under repressive regimes. It's a lottery and we first world nationers are winners! But of course we can share our winnings if we choose. Donating just a few dollars a day to a reputable world humanitarian aid organization will certainly make a difference in the life of a poor child.

If you really want to know what motivates someone non-religious, it's just like what motives someone religious I would imagine, only without the supernatural parts. And like religion, there is much variation. There are many hundreds of millions who do just fine without the supernatural component, and data and surveys show that people born into irreligious families aren't flocking to "get religion" these days; the world is becoming more secular. The majority of those working in the sciences aren't religious and I'm quite certain that many of them have made or are making contributions which will have a positive impact on future generations just as those who "believe" are having an impact.

As far as doing something for future generations, well, for those of us who believe we are facing a long term resource and climate crisis, we reduce our carbon footprint even though we may be able to afford to burn through resources at a much greater rate, we conserve energy, we support our local farmers and ranchers, buying locally whenever possible and we purchase green energy from our power companies. We drive smaller cars, live within or below our means, and walk and bike, etc. You don't have to be religious to do any of those things, nor is religion required to donate to causes which work at saving species critical to the web of life, or land or water resources. One doesn't have to be religious to be a good citizen, encourage others, or to educate children to believe in stewardship. A broad based education in the sciences is important.

Just because someone isn't religious, certainly doesn't mean that they have no concern for the future. It is just the opposite. And besides, humans have so many problems to solve that we can all be working toward creating a more sustainable world, each in our own way, religious or not.

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 Post subject: Re: What I would Say to an Atheist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:30 am 
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KevinSim wrote:
If nothing good lasts forever, then that means a time will come when the state of the universe will be essentially as if humanity had never existed. My conscience won't let me accept that fate for the universe. My conscience forces me to take one of two approaches. Either I must become the person that figures out how to preserve some good things forever, or else I must assume that person already exists, and attempt to unite with that person in Her/His efforts to preserve some good things forever. I recognize that the first approach is beyond me, so I have concentrated on the second one. This is the entire reason why I believe in God.

For the atheists on this forum, I guess I'd just like to ask them what they feel like their consciences require them to do for future generations of humanity. Is the next generation after us just one step closer to the extinction of the species? Can your conscience live with that? Or does your conscience require you to work toward an improved world for future generations? And a world that will keep on improving as time goes on?



I am not sure I would call myself an atheist but more a skeptic at this point. So a couple thoughts:

1: It does not matter what you or your conscience will let you believe and how you make yourself fell better about it. If there is no God and no forever for us and if all things come to an end it just is.

2: One does not have to believe in God to want good thing for us now and for our species and descendents in the future. The betterment of humanity is a good cause in and of itself. The end of our sun, planet, galaxy or universe is so far away…our earth likely has longer to last than it has existed do far but our species may not last that long..but this is all so far off I just do my best now and for the next few generations. After that it is up to them.


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 Post subject: Re: What I would Say to an Atheist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:42 am 
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I would tell him to read the posts of tobin so he could see how mentally unbalanced religion can make one.

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 Post subject: Re: What I would Say to an Atheist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:43 am 
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What I would say to an atheist?

"Why do monkeys still exist?" :biggrin:


(I really enjoyed Elphaba's post in this thread) :smile:

Peace,
Ceeboo


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 Post subject: Re: What I would Say to an Atheist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:47 am 
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Ceeboo wrote:
What I would say to an atheist?

"Why do monkeys still exist?" :biggrin:


(I really enjoyed Elphaba's post in this thread) :smile:

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Ceeboo


Ceeboo, are you male or female? I need to know how to react to you licking me! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: What I would Say to an Atheist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:52 am 
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Wonderful responses here, I don't really have anything to add. i'll just say that I hope KevinSim takes these answers to heart, but given the number of times he has asked this same question and gotten the same answers, I don't have any confidence that he will actually get what we're saying.


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 Post subject: Re: What I would Say to an Atheist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:55 am 
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Hey Maksutov! :smile:

Maksutov wrote:

Ceeboo, are you male or female?


I am a male!

Quote:
I need to know how to react to you licking me! :lol:


PM please! :redface:

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 Post subject: Re: What I would Say to an Atheist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:59 am 
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Ceeboo wrote:
Hey Maksutov! :smile:
Maksutov wrote:
Ceeboo, are you male or female?

I am a male!

Quote:
I need to know how to react to you licking me! :lol:

PM please! :redface:

Peace,
Ceeboo

I meant...your avatar! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm really an old fashioned guy. Hell, I put Tobin on ignore cuz I didn't like *him* licking me...not because he's skullf****d. I'd hate to ignore you but man, that feels just, uh, nasty... :eek:

Otherwise, been missing you on the board lately! :smile:

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 Post subject: Re: What I would Say to an Atheist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:08 am 
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Maksutov wrote:

I meant...your avatar! :lol: :lol: :lol:


Yeah....sure you did! :smile:


Quote:


Otherwise, been missing you on the board lately! :smile:


Miss you too, friend!

BTW- thanks for the tulip arrangement and the lovely personal card. They are both beautiful! :smile:

Peace,
Ceeboo


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 Post subject: Re: What I would Say to an Atheist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:11 am 
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Ceeboo wrote:
Maksutov wrote:

I meant...your avatar! :lol: :lol: :lol:


Yeah....sure you did! :smile:


Quote:


Otherwise, been missing you on the board lately! :smile:


Miss you too, friend!

BTW- thanks for the tulip arrangement and the lovely personal card. They are both beautiful! :smile:

Peace,
Ceeboo

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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