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 Post subject: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:36 am 
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Treehugger, on MAD, happened to start a thread which lasted quite long for a thread that was attacking the MADites DemiGod Scott Gordon.

Anywho, Scott Gordon, made claims about Joseph Smith's plural marriages being talked about in the Ensign, he also made claims about Joseph Smith using the stone in a hat method. Treehugger, took Gordon to task on the references Gordon provided.

4 out of the 10 total references support Gordon claim.

And below is a screen cap of Gordon's response. Gordon's response is essentially, that it does not matter that he deliberately provided false information.

Image

It should be no surprise that the thread is locked, what is surprising is that the thread lasted 2 pages before being locked.


Last edited by 3sheets2thewind on Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:38 am 
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Scott Gordon said at UVU:

Another common tactic [of anti-mormons] is to claim that the Church is hiding the information 2 quick examples. Many are upset when they learn that Joseph Smith practiced plural marriage. Everybody knows Brigham Young practiced plural marriage, but if Joseph Smith did it that’s bad and the Church must be hiding it. Or they learn that Joseph Smith “may” have used a hat and a seer stone when translating the Book of Mormon. The typical claim is that the Church has been this or has been dishonest about it.

Here is a short list of where you can read about Joseph Smith’s marriages.
2007 “teachings of Presidents, Joseph Smith vii-xiii
Ensign, Aug 92 page 30,
Dec 78 page 42,
feb 77 page 48,
New Era dec 73 page 7,
DC section 132 1843 that talks about plural marriage.

As far as translation with a stone in a hat:
Ensign
Jan 97, page 36
Jul 93, page 61
Jan 88, page 6-13
Sep 77. page 79
Friend, Sep 74, page 7, that talks about that.

So you’ll also note the childrens magazine entry. That fact that you may not have heard about something in a Sunday school lesson does not mean it is hidden. Too many members believe the Church teaches history in Sunday School lessons, that is not what “we” do. We use examples from history to teach Gospel Principles.


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:40 am 
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Treehugger said:

The following addresses Gordons claim of reading about Joseph Smith plural marriage. I found the appropriate Ensign and word did a word search, the underlined part is Gordon citation and the black text is what is in the article and the red is an analysis of the text.

2007 “teachings of Presidents, Joseph Smith vii-xiii “This book also does not discuss plural marriage. The doctrines and principles relating to plural marriage were revealed to Joseph Smith as early as 1831. The Prophet taught the doctrine of plural marriage, and a number of such marriages were performed during his lifetime.” This source does not indicate to the reader that Joseph Smith, himself, entered into, plural/polygamist marriages. This source only lets the reader know that "a number" of plural marriages were performed during Joseph Smith lifetime, but the source does not indicate who entered into those marriages

Ensign, Aug 92 page 30, “Her great trial came when the prophet revealed to Emma that they would be required to live the ancient law of Abraham—plural marriage. Emma suffered deeply hurt feelings because of it. While she agreed with this doctrine at times, at other times she opposed it. Years later, Emma is purported to have denied that any such doctrine was ever introduced by her husband. In later years, Emma apparently never spoke of the sacred ordinances they had received. She would have been under covenant not to do so.” This source is does better at indicating Joseph Smith may have entered into plural/polygmaist marriages, but the author flatly rejects Emma Smith's claim it never happened, thus it becomes who to believe; it is interesting that the author does not provide any evidence that Emma Smith "would have been under covenant" not to admit that Joseph Smith entered into plural/polygamist marriages.

Ensign jan 89 page 30, In Nauvoo, the Knight group faced and passed another great test of faith. The Prophet introduced several doctrines relating to the temple including the temple ceremonies and plural marriage, which some could not accept. 20 But the Knights received the teachings. They helped to finish the temple and then performed baptisms for the dead. By early 1846, more than twenty adults in the Knight families had received their temple endowments and sealings. Four of Father and Polly Knight’s children entered into plural marriage. This source does not inform the reader that Joseph Smith, himself, entered into plural/polygamist marriages.

Ensign Dec 78 page 42, ” In obedience to the command of the living prophet, Newel and Elizabeth Ann gave their daughter Sarah Ann in marriage to Joseph Smith.” A direct and straightforward acknowledgment.

Ensign feb 77 page 48, “Then, along with economic privation and an absent father, was for some the institution of plural marriage. Starting during Joseph Smith’s own lifetime but limited to a few dozen families until its official announcement in 1852, plural marriage brought a powerful new challenge to the equanimity of Latter-day Saint family life.”
Once again, another source which does not inform the reader that Joseph Smith, himself, entered into plural/polygamist marriages. However, if based on this vague and nonspecific text, the reader is suppose to realize that Joseph Smith entered into plural/polygamist marriages, then, based on the following is the reader suppose to know and understand that Joseph Smith had sexual relations with his plural/polygamist wives
… “In the words of Professor Eugene Campbell of Brigham Young University, “Many of the normal problems of marriage, such as finance, personality adjustment, sexual relationships, jealousies, child-rearing and discipline were all magnified in plural marriages.”

New Era dec 73 page 7, “The great prophet Elias, whom Joseph Fielding Smith says is Noah (See Answers to Gospel Questions [Deseret Book Co.: 1957], vol. 3, p. 138), appeared and bestowed upon their heads the keys of the dispensation of Abraham, or in other words, as Elder Bruce R. McConkie says in Mormon Doctrine (2nd ed. [Bookcraft: 1966], p. 219.), the keys of celestial and plural marriage. Again, not indication that Joseph Smith entered into plural/polygamist marriages.

DC section 132 1843 that talks about plural marriage. Apparently the position is, that it is self evident in Section 132 that Joseph Smith was a polygamist or had entered into plural marriages.


Granted Gordon may have been limited by time, but only one of the citations he lists specifically addresses Joseph Smith entering in plural marriages. As for the rest, they are dubious at best, they do not provide the read with the knowledge that Joseph Smith entered in to plural marriages.


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:43 am 
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Treehugger said:

Concerning the stone in hat translation method:

Ensign
Jan 97, page 36, presumbably the article is "By the Gift and Power of God". First the term "hat" does not appear in this issue of the Ensign. As for the article the terms "seer stone", "divine insturmentalities" and "Urim and Thummim" are mentioned, but there is no indication of Joseph Smith placing his face in a hat.

Jul 93, page 61;
The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote:
“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.)

Jan 88, page 6-13; presumed article "A New Prophet and a New Scripture: The Coming Forth of the Book of Mormon" hat is not mentioned, but Urim and Thummim is. But no face in hat method.

Sep 77. page 79 presumed article "“By the Gift and Power of God” "“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light. And in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe. And when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God and not by any power of man. The characters I speak of are the engravings on the golden plates from which the book was translated.” 11

Friend, Sep 74, page 7, presumed article "A Peaceful Heart" No mention of a hat. Seer Stone and Urim and Thummim mentioned.

So only 2 out of 5 claimed sources indicate Jospeh Smith placed his face in a hat. Once again, Gordon may have been limited by time, but clearly he provides references which do not support his claim.


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:53 am 
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OMG... Unbelievable. I see they also locked the thread where all this started. ...the same thread they banned me.

Did you notice how they tried to derail the thread with BS CFR calls?

Treehugger followed their rules...played their game. ..
did the whole CFR bullcrap....and now the thread will just goes away. I suspect treehugger And paerider will be convenently banned as well.
Unbelievable.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:01 am 
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cwald wrote:
OMG... Unbelievable. I see they also locked the thread where all this started. ...the same thread they banned me.

Did you notice how they tried to derail the thread with BS CFR calls?

Treehugger followed their rules...played their game. ..
did the whole CFR bullcrap....and now the thread will just goes away. I suspect treehugger And paerider will be convenently banned as well.
Unbelievable.


Not really unbelievable. This is par for the course.

Always follow the footnotes. They are most always very enlightening as to the mind of the apologists.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:17 am 
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Probably so gramps.

Now they started a thread just on my one comment...I'm going to get banned altogether. Damnit.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:42 am 
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cwald wrote:
Did you notice how they tried to derail the thread with BS CFR calls?



Even worse, they were probably acquainted with the references themselves.

I did like Calmoriah mentioning how busy Scott was with all the political insanity. It's enough to give him Bain damage.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:57 am 
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moksha wrote:
cwald wrote:
Did you notice how they tried to derail the thread with BS CFR calls?



Even worse, they were probably acquainted with the references themselves.

I did like Calmoriah mentioning how busy Scott was with all the political insanity. It's enough to give him Bain damage.



Yeah. No kidding. The other thread....THE THIRD thread today on this topic today is not going well. I guess it is my fault that I didn't know about polygamy and polyandry until I was 35 is because I failed to read d&c 132. Its all spelled out right there. -sigh-

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:30 am 
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The Church needs to realise that people like Scott paint the Church in a very bad light. It comes across that the Church needs to duck, dive, hide, fudge and mislead people about its history and teachings.

He is either deliberately misleading or is incompetent.
Either way the Church needs to act before more members are lost as a result of Scott's apologetics.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:37 am 
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3sheets2thewind wrote:
...
So only 2 out of 5 claimed sources indicate Jospeh Smith placed his face in a hat. Once again, Gordon may have been limited by time, but clearly he provides references which do not support his claim.

Or he was simply trapped by the site's (LDS.org) search abilities - and didn't check the results he got.

For example, try search "heavenly mother". (http://www.LDS.org/search?lang=eng&query=%22heavenly+mother%22)

The first three result of 15:

The Family _ A Proclamation to the World
- there is "heavenly parents" only

Daughters of God _ Gordon B. Hinckley
- there is "Heavenly Father" only
- ("Mother in Heaven" can be found 6 times)

Church Music Home _ Church Music Player _ 292 _ O My Father
- "Father" and "Mother" can be found, no "heavenly"...
- (we can it reassemble from the text in 3rd verse: "in the hevn's are parents single? No ... I've a mother there")

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:39 am 
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Seriously? One reference proves his point? So if ONE time during the church's history, someone is published saying "Joseph Smith had more than one wife", then no member has any excuse for not knowing this information?

Talk about a low bar.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:53 am 
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beastie wrote:
Seriously? One reference proves his point? So if ONE time during the church's history, someone is published saying "Joseph Smith had more than one wife", then no member has any excuse for not knowing this information?

Talk about a low bar.


No kidding. I didn't speak up on the other board because I know how pointless it would be but the impression I had as a kid was that Joseph Smith received the revelation in D&C 132 but died before it was really practiced. In my mind, Brigham Young was the polygamist.

The topic was avoided, regardless of whether it was in the seminary manual, and we did our level best to distance ourselves from the church's polygamist past as it did not go over well with our Bible belt friends, family, and neighbors. We passed along the faith promoting rumor that polygamy was all about taking care of women whose husbands were murdered by bloodthirsty Mormon haters who chased the saints from state to state until they fled across the plains. We also talked about how many women were sealed to Joseph Smith after his death, as if this alone accounted for the long list of wives local anti-Mormons claimed he had.

This was the narrative I was given at church, right or wrong, and it was how we coped with the local persecution for issues about which we had almost no historical data. The closest thing we had to information about our own beginnings other than manuals and church magazines were entries in Encyclopedia Britannica and the books my dad purchased from Deseret Book when we made the 7 hour trek to the nearest temple. That book store didn't open shop until the mid 70s and it's shelves were filled with faith promoting books written by church leaders and materials designed to help one succeed in teaching Primary or preparing a "Two-Minute Talk".

Even if you devoured the church magazines, it wasn't like there was an online database so you could research old issues. If you converted after one of Scott's referenced articles were released, or were a child then, the odds against encountering information about Joseph's polygamy or the stone and hat were astronomical.

At my house, where my father purchased every inspirational LDS book he could get his hands on, where we got all the church magazines, and where we attended faithfully (my dad was the bishop in my formative years, then high councilor, stake presidency counselor, etc throughout my childhood and youth - my mom went from Primary President to the Stake RS Presidency for most of those years), there was a dearth of information.

We did have a copy of Lucy Mack Smith's biography of Joseph which I skimmed as a 10 or 11 year old. And there was a brother in the ward who kept mimeographed papers that looked like newsletters from FARMS in a three ring binder but he was mostly obsessed with finding archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon. Polygamy never came up in any conversation I had with him or overheard.

I would expect there was a lot more information to be had out West, given the reality of polygamist off shoots, and the ever present reality of church members with polygamist progenitors. Perhaps some of those claiming to have always known, really did always know, the history of polygamy being an unavoidable undercurrent of their culture and community.

In my LDS experience, far from "Zion", it simply was not so.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:20 am 
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cwald wrote:
Yeah. No kidding. The other thread....THE THIRD thread today on this topic today is not going well. I guess it is my fault that I didn't know about polygamy and polyandry until I was 35 is because I failed to read d&c 132. Its all spelled out right there. -sigh-

You @*%^# anti-Mormon heretic. 132 is NOT about polygamy, it is about eternal marriage. The section heading that has been in there for, oh, I don't know, about forever is not doctrinal. You're not supposed to read that part. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:04 am 
beastie wrote:
Seriously? One reference proves his point? So if ONE time during the church's history, someone is published saying "Joseph Smith had more than one wife", then no member has any excuse for not knowing this information?

Talk about a low bar.


What, you haven't read every Ensign article in every issue including the ones that came out before you were born? Well then it's your fault you didn't see that one article from 40 years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:40 am 
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Did Scott Gordon explain what title he had in mind, the one the didn't get used, the one that would accurately describe the category of his listing?


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:24 am 
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mercyngrace wrote:
This was the narrative I was given at church, right or wrong, and it was how we coped with the local persecution for issues about which we had almost no historical data. The closest thing we had to information about our own beginnings other than manuals and church magazines were entries in Encyclopedia Britannica and the books my dad purchased from Deseret Book when we made the 7 hour trek to the nearest temple. That book store didn't open shop until the mid 70s and it's shelves were filled with faith promoting books written by church leaders and materials designed to help one succeed in teaching Primary or preparing a "Two-Minute Talk".

Even if you devoured the church magazines, it wasn't like there was an online database so you could research old issues. If you converted after one of Scott's referenced articles were released, or were a child then, the odds against encountering information about Joseph's polygamy or the stone and hat were astronomical.

At my house, where my father purchased every inspirational LDS book he could get his hands on, where we got all the church magazines, and where we attended faithfully (my dad was the bishop in my formative years, then high councilor, stake presidency counselor, etc throughout my childhood and youth - my mom went from Primary President to the Stake RS Presidency for most of those years), there was a dearth of information.

We did have a copy of Lucy Mack Smith's biography of Joseph which I skimmed as a 10 or 11 year old. And there was a brother in the ward who kept mimeographed papers that looked like newsletters from FARMS in a three ring binder but he was mostly obsessed with finding archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon. Polygamy never came up in any conversation I had with him or overheard.

I would expect there was a lot more information to be had out West, given the reality of polygamist off shoots, and the ever present reality of church members with polygamist progenitors. Perhaps some of those claiming to have always known, really did always know, the history of polygamy being an unavoidable undercurrent of their culture and community.

In my LDS experience, far from "Zion", it simply was not so.


Well, I grew up in Northern Utah and this sounds awfully familiar to me. The internet has really changed the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:59 am 
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Cicero wrote:
mercyngrace wrote:
This was the narrative I was given at church, right or wrong, and it was how we coped with the local persecution for issues about which we had almost no historical data. The closest thing we had to information about our own beginnings other than manuals and church magazines were entries in Encyclopedia Britannica and the books my dad purchased from Deseret Book when we made the 7 hour trek to the nearest temple. That book store didn't open shop until the mid 70s and it's shelves were filled with faith promoting books written by church leaders and materials designed to help one succeed in teaching Primary or preparing a "Two-Minute Talk".

Even if you devoured the church magazines, it wasn't like there was an online database so you could research old issues. If you converted after one of Scott's referenced articles were released, or were a child then, the odds against encountering information about Joseph's polygamy or the stone and hat were astronomical.

At my house, where my father purchased every inspirational LDS book he could get his hands on, where we got all the church magazines, and where we attended faithfully (my dad was the bishop in my formative years, then high councilor, stake presidency counselor, etc throughout my childhood and youth - my mom went from Primary President to the Stake RS Presidency for most of those years), there was a dearth of information.

We did have a copy of Lucy Mack Smith's biography of Joseph which I skimmed as a 10 or 11 year old. And there was a brother in the ward who kept mimeographed papers that looked like newsletters from FARMS in a three ring binder but he was mostly obsessed with finding archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon. Polygamy never came up in any conversation I had with him or overheard.

I would expect there was a lot more information to be had out West, given the reality of polygamist off shoots, and the ever present reality of church members with polygamist progenitors. Perhaps some of those claiming to have always known, really did always know, the history of polygamy being an unavoidable undercurrent of their culture and community.

In my LDS experience, far from "Zion", it simply was not so.


Well, I grew up in Northern Utah and this sounds awfully familiar to me. The internet has really changed the game.

I found much more Mormon history information from TBMs and inactive Mo's when I was in the mission field than in my previous 19 years deep in Zion. It seems it was not as easy to shield a young TBM as I then was when out in the mission field, as it was in Zion where the Mo society kept your attention to history diverted.


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:12 am 
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mercyngrace wrote:
No kidding. I didn't speak up on the other board because I know how pointless it would be but the impression I had as a kid was that Joseph Smith received the revelation in D&C 132 but died before it was really practiced. In my mind, Brigham Young was the polygamist.

The topic was avoided, regardless of whether it was in the seminary manual, and we did our level best to distance ourselves from the church's polygamist past as it did not go over well with our Bible belt friends, family, and neighbors. We passed along the faith promoting rumor that polygamy was all about taking care of women whose husbands were murdered by bloodthirsty Mormon haters who chased the saints from state to state until they fled across the plains. We also talked about how many women were sealed to Joseph Smith after his death, as if this alone accounted for the long list of wives local anti-Mormons claimed he had.

This was the narrative I was given at church, right or wrong, and it was how we coped with the local persecution for issues about which we had almost no historical data. The closest thing we had to information about our own beginnings other than manuals and church magazines were entries in Encyclopedia Britannica and the books my dad purchased from Deseret Book when we made the 7 hour trek to the nearest temple. That book store didn't open shop until the mid 70s and it's shelves were filled with faith promoting books written by church leaders and materials designed to help one succeed in teaching Primary or preparing a "Two-Minute Talk".

Even if you devoured the church magazines, it wasn't like there was an online database so you could research old issues. If you converted after one of Scott's referenced articles were released, or were a child then, the odds against encountering information about Joseph's polygamy or the stone and hat were astronomical.

At my house, where my father purchased every inspirational LDS book he could get his hands on, where we got all the church magazines, and where we attended faithfully (my dad was the bishop in my formative years, then high councilor, stake presidency counselor, etc throughout my childhood and youth - my mom went from Primary President to the Stake RS Presidency for most of those years), there was a dearth of information.

We did have a copy of Lucy Mack Smith's biography of Joseph which I skimmed as a 10 or 11 year old. And there was a brother in the ward who kept mimeographed papers that looked like newsletters from FARMS in a three ring binder but he was mostly obsessed with finding archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon. Polygamy never came up in any conversation I had with him or overheard.

I would expect there was a lot more information to be had out West, given the reality of polygamist off shoots, and the ever present reality of church members with polygamist progenitors. Perhaps some of those claiming to have always known, really did always know, the history of polygamy being an unavoidable undercurrent of their culture and community.

In my LDS experience, far from "Zion", it simply was not so.


This was my experience as well.

I converted to the church at the age of 19 in 1976. I was attending a small, private Methodist college in the southeast, and its library only had two books on Mormonism - both EV anti-mormon screeds that were easy to dismiss. I did my best to find out more information about the LDS church, but just didn't have access to anything helpful. So I believed what the missionaries told me about polygamy, which correlates to what you were told - it was to take care of widows and orphans. (I now wonder why it didn't occur to me that church members could take care of widows and orphans without marrying the widows as plural wives.) I don't remember ever hearing that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy himself, much less some of the more controversial details. I remember being told repeatedly that Emma was adamantly opposed to the practice. Did I draw the conclusion myself that Joseph Smith refrained from the practice for Emma's sake, or was I told that? I have no idea, but it was a firmly implanted idea in my head. This was true for my other family members that joined when I did, too. We didn't find out about Joseph Smith's polygamy until we read Mormon Enigma many years later.

I told this story on MAD years ago, and was heavily criticized for being too lazy to engage in due diligence before joining the church. When I pointed out that I had no resources at all, I was told that I should have searched the microfiches of the library. I pointed out that I would not have known what to look FOR, having no idea what the controversies are, and they didn't care. It was still my fault. I was lazy.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:25 am 
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beastie wrote:
I told this story on MAD years ago, and was heavily criticized for being too lazy to engage in due diligence before joining the church. When I pointed out that I had no resources at all, I was told that I should have searched the microfiches of the library. I pointed out that I would not have known what to look FOR, having no idea what the controversies are, and they didn't care. It was still my fault. I was lazy.


This is one common tactic of apologists that really, really irks me. As I've said before, it is all part of their hallmark practice of addressing the faults of the questioner rather than the question itself.


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:29 am 
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mercyngrace wrote:
...help one succeed in teaching Primary or preparing a "Two-Minute Talk".



You must either be a lazy member who didn't really understand doctrine or a lying anti-mormon.

The correct term is TWO-AND-A-HALF MINUTE TALK!

Lying apostates always trying to deny that extra half minute....

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