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 Post subject: Re: Hate to be rude but.... Version 2.0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:35 pm 
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Simon, can you please re-read the original post here, I think you are wanted elsewhere.

Please!


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 Post subject: Re: Hate to be rude but.... Version 2.0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:40 pm 
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MrStakhanovite wrote:
Simon Belmont wrote:
Joseph Smith's fallibility is unimportant when considering the grand scheme of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.


What


I think we shouldn't dismiss Joseph Smith claims based solely on his mistakes and weaknesses, but certainly they do play an important role in evaluating whether they are true and whether we can trust him. Some actions and behaviors have more impact in this evaluation

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 Post subject: Re: Hate to be rude but.... Version 2.0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:42 pm 
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Wisdom Seeker wrote:
I wonder if my opinions on some of these church matters would be different if I was taught that the Prophet and this church was fallible? I mean, if I were taught that there were mistakes made, but I had to rely more upon my faith, would I have been more like these apologists who seem to be able to throw out reason in defending the church?


I really think that if the teaching "the president of the church will never be allowed to lead it astray" never came into being that the entire church would be very different!

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 Post subject: Re: Hate to be rude but.... Version 2.0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:48 pm 
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Simon Belmont wrote:
I have demonstrated time and time again that all of your view about Joseph Smith are simply wrong.


You have demonstrated time and time again that your understanding of the facts and Joseph Smith are simply lacking. Even after repeated tutoring, you are still unable to use all the facts and sources in context. Try again.


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 Post subject: Re: Hate to be rude but.... Version 2.0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:10 pm 
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Simon Belmont wrote:
Joseph Smith's fallibility is unimportant when considering the grand scheme of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.


Then we can disregard the multiple first visions, the improbable angel and flaming sword, the impossible run through the woods with the gold plates under his arm... and we can certainly disregard anything after Fanny.

Good to know.

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 Post subject: Re: Hate to be rude but.... Version 2.0
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:23 pm 
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Themis wrote:
I was never taught that Joseph Smith or any other leader were infallible, but we were taught that God would not let in errors that would hurt the church, which makes perfect sense if God is really the one in charge. The LDS church is no different then any other church without this. This is why arguing BY made a mistake of this magnitude which impacts so many people is unrealistic. You may as well go with what members have been taught which is that God instituted the ban, even though it doesn't make the LDS God look good. Same goes for the catalyst theory. The Book of Abraham is tied to the papyri. If it acted as a catalyst then it should not have mentioned the papyri, and Joseph should not have been getting revelation about the facsimiles. If he was then God is involved in deception and misleading Joseph Smith and others about the papyri.



The Lord attempted to correct a huge and catastrophic error in the early church. I think it was only three years old when the Lord condemned it for "saying" and not "doing" according to that which is written in the Book of Mormon for a standard of righteousness wherein what is meet for the Father's kingdom is well defined and example after example is demonstrated plainly so no man could possible not know what is expected.

HOWEVER

This revelatory correction of the Church NEVER took hold. There was never an awakening that zealously sought to correct the error or see to it that such errors would never happen again. It was ignored. Joseph Smith taught the real gospel until the last months of his life, but the Church NEVER rose to the level of true saints worthy of a Zion and equal to sanctify the elements under their feet and over their heads.

So by default the Church is being led astray and has never been otherwise than misled and fallen into egregious error and wrong doing and under that same condemnation as per reiterated of late by President Ezra T. Benson. And what did the modern Church do after President Benson put the official condemnation back upon the LDS Church in General Conference? NOTHING! They have done nothing other than more lip service to reading the Book of Mormon more. Like that was ever the answer.

What does it profit if a gift, like revelation, is given and no one receives it. No one acknowledges it as valid and urgent and vital to spiritual integrity. Especially all the Brethren who let it fall to the ground to be trampled upon with all the pearls the Lord has cast before the Gentile Swine of the LDS ilk.

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 Post subject: Re: Hate to be rude but.... Version 2.0
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:46 am 
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I think the stuff like this that critics think they were taught come from lazy inferences from some of the taught material.

Most active saints have it right. The critics and a few Saints found it dull or tedious or too complicated or whatever and stopped paying attention and took the superficial understanding that develops over time from that kind of thing and assumes it's taught generally.

"I heard two good stories about Joseph Smith in Church today. The LDS all think he's flawless!"

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 Post subject: Re: Hate to be rude but.... Version 2.0
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:02 am 
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The Nehor wrote:

Most active saints have it right.


Have WHAT right?

[] Gospel
[] Doctrine about exaltation
[] Nature of God
[] Book of Mormon Geography
[] Millennial Zion
[] Joseph Smith stories
[] Arrogance of apostasy

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 Post subject: Re: Hate to be rude but.... Version 2.0
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:21 am 
God

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The Nehor wrote:
I think the stuff like this that critics think they were taught come from lazy inferences from some of the taught material.


I remember an a believing member a joke about the Catholics teaching an infallible Pope, but treat him as fallible, and the LDS teach a fallible Prophet and treat him as infallible.

Quote:
Most active saints have it right.


I never saw Joseph as perfect, but I never imagined some of the crap he was doing, and even with that crap I might have given him a pass, but I was more interested in the evidence. To bad the church is not what it claims.

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The critics and a few Saints found it dull or tedious or too complicated or whatever and stopped paying attention and took the superficial understanding that develops over time from that kind of thing and assumes it's taught generally.


More apologetic BS. I have seen very few non-believers expect Joseph Smith to have been perfect. They just recognize that a certain level of good behavior should be expected in order for us to trust him.

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 Post subject: Re: Hate to be rude but.... Version 2.0
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:42 am 
Savior (resurrected)

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Love to be rude?

The Nehor wrote:
I think the stuff like this that critics think they were taught come from lazy inferences from some of the taught material.

Most active saints have it right. The critics and a few Saints found it dull or tedious or too complicated or whatever and stopped paying attention and took the superficial understanding that develops over time from that kind of thing and assumes it's taught generally.

"I heard two good stories about Joseph Smith in Church today. The LDS all think he's flawless!"


Those flawed critics, they were never taught incorrectly, it was just to complicated for them!

There is absolutely nothing wrong with my church only those incredulous critics who can't see the logic, I mean faith.

Nehor,
Go back and read my first post, your comments are needed elsewhere!


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 Post subject: Re: Hate to be rude but.... Version 2.0
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:45 am 
Savior (resurrected)

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Whatever!


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