It is currently Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:39 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:34 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 11088
Location: Multiverse
I understand love and reverence. But not "worship". Different drummer, I guess.

_________________
In the end Elder Oaks was correct, In Mormonism “it is wrong to criticize leaders even if the criticism is true”. In fact it may be the only real true Doctrine left in Mormonism from the beginning of the restoration. --Bill Reel


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:12 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:29 pm
Posts: 3833
Amore wrote:

1. "Jesus is Savior, next to (or actually to some) God. He died for me (human sacrifice) and paid for my sins (scapegoat). For some, there is overwhelming shame with past mistakes. Mostly, it's my own cognitive distortions (like polarized thinking) that causes me to punitively fear considering my mistakes - so there may be a lot of denial. This idea of Jesus may serve to help me up until I can handle more."

2. "Jesus did suffer for me, so I owe him something. I'm going to be as good as I can be. Deep down, I'm beginning to sense that the idea of human sacrifice scapegoating is wrong, but everyone around me tells me it's right and it's much easier to believe (especially when I'm told if I don't I'll go to hell) than to question."

3. "Rejecting it all. No, Jesus did not die for me, nor pay for my sins because human sacrifice scapegoating is illogical and immoral.

. Coming back to reconsider Christianity without the dogma... God loves me as evident by my beating heart. I don't need to imagine human sacrifice to appreciate my many saviors who have helped and loved me. I don't need scapegoating; instead, I'm taking response-ability and make at-one what I've screwed up to my best ability and then forgive myself and others for human weakness.

* Some say Jesus was the arch-type of Free Speech. He was kind and loving at times, but he also showed love by striving for what's best in others in pointing out what they were trying to deny, making him unashamedly politically incorrect.
*Forgave even the worst offenses because after all his soul searching he understood, "they know not what they do."

Amore, I think there are distortions bouncing around in Christianity. A variety of events in history clearly point to that. I can appreciate that you are doing real personal thinking about that.

Last night I read through your post and had some rather negative reactions. I then thought I should think twice at least before complaining out of respect to your thought.

Perhaps I just have a couple of questions. You see the atonement is to my mind a very positive thing. To call atonement scapegoating is strange and a bit offensive to my ears. Human sacrifice is pretty broad, can refer to a variety of things with different meanings, I think calling Jesus death that does not clarify the meaning much.

I think any forgiveness involves taking on some suffering for others. It is not free. I realize Jesus looking about at his death did not think people knew what they are doing. I do not think that changes the fact that whole lot of human evil involves people knowing exactly what they are doing. I think that perhaps makes the confrontation, change and forgiveness more difficult.

One comment I have heard about the atonement that makes some sense to me is that it is about our fundamental respect and need for people to be willing to suffer for others.

I really liked your comment about Jesus politically incorrect free speech. It actually can be a bit hard to see how Jesus death was suffering for others. One window into that might be that he believed in the good possible future for people enough that he could not shut his mouth about it and that got him into the executioners sights.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:01 am 
Holy Ghost
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:27 am
Posts: 903
huckelberry wrote:
Amore, I think there are distortions bouncing around in Christianity. A variety of events in history clearly point to that. I can appreciate that you are doing real personal thinking about that.

Last night I read through your post and had some rather negative reactions. I then thought I should think twice at least before complaining out of respect to your thought.

Perhaps I just have a couple of questions. You see the atonement is to my mind a very positive thing. To call atonement scapegoating is strange and a bit offensive to my ears. Human sacrifice is pretty broad, can refer to a variety of things with different meanings, I think calling Jesus death that does not clarify the meaning much.

I think any forgiveness involves taking on some suffering for others. It is not free. I realize Jesus looking about at his death did not think people knew what they are doing. I do not think that changes the fact that whole lot of human evil involves people knowing exactly what they are doing. I think that perhaps makes the confrontation, change and forgiveness more difficult.

One comment I have heard about the atonement that makes some sense to me is that it is about our fundamental respect and need for people to be willing to suffer for others.

I really liked your comment about Jesus politically incorrect free speech. It actually can be a bit hard to see how Jesus death was suffering for others. One window into that might be that he believed in the good possible future for people enough that he could not shut his mouth about it and that got him into the executioners sights.

Well, first off, thank you for your respect, despite possible disagreements. Also, I'm still figuring a lot of this out, so if you ask me in another 5 years, I'll likely give you different answers.

Sorry to offend, but I may be so blunt as to offend more, & I apologize ahead of time for that too. I'd rather get it all out on the table - without having to lose clarity in trying to be politically or religiously correct (I'm glad you liked the idea of Jesus being for free-speech). I realize that the terms, "human sacrifice scapegoat" do sound kind of harsh, but isn't that what Christianity has warped into - if you get down to it? Obviously, no Christian is shouting, "Crucify him!! Kill him to appease our God and so we don't have to suffer!" However, they are choosing that illusion on which to base their faith - and it is an illusion based on idolatry - which is damning (holding people back).

It seems to me more as I look into it, that most people barely scratch the surface of the symbolism of Christianity. Repeatedly, Jesus said, essentially, "Come follow me and do what I do and more!" But what's been done mostly instead is make Jesus into a god up on a pedestal so high that there's no way to follow! It's a bit like kids who pretend to be superheroes - except then they become adults and live their lives as if it's a constant comic con, rather than being their own version of hero. The most difficult leap (which I'm still struggling with) is taking the reins of your own imagination in regards to your spiritual development. It's really difficult to let go of skepticism (Fowler's 4th stage) enough to explore your own psyche - subconscious, fears, dreams, hopes etc. Nobody can really tell you, "Huckelberry, you need to believe in this, because this is what really gets you pumped! Or this is what brings you comfort." We each need to figure it out ourselves.

When people (we all) screw up, they may know what they're doing, enough to do it, but they don't realize how what they do is indirectly hurting them. We're all connected ultimately & we have built-in empathy which they have to shut off in order to hurt another, so they are hurting themselves by kind of shutting off, subduing or killing a part of themselves. Each of us do this to an extent - and that's the thing that real Christian symbolism teaches: Within you is part god and part devil - deal with it! Don't pretend it doesn't exist and don't pretend it's too shameful to even consider - explore it, search your soul - it may feel like you're bleeding from every pour - but ultimately, you will overcome and be better and happier for it. You were born to do this.

Interesting point, interpreting to mean the necessity of suffering for each other. I suppose we all do this to some extent - except maybe hermits. As someone who's co-dependent (self-sacrificing, subjugating), I feel like I first need to get better at balancing loving myself along with others. But I see this self-sacrificing - as people like Martin Luther King, Mother Teresa and Jesus did - as the higher level of spiritual development. I imagine it is never perfect - still based on trial & error - but getting better - using reason and developed intuition to love most effectively. And no doubt, there is plenty of need of such love.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:47 am 
Nursery

Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:24 pm
Posts: 36
It is really rather simple, and it partly depends on how you are using the word "worship." In the vast majority of cases, probably 99% of the time, we pray to and worship the Father. But, there can be cases when, under special circumstances, we will "worship" the Son (such as in 3 Nephi).

_________________
Mike Griffith
LDS Information Web Page
http://ldsinfo.miketgriffith.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:51 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 11088
Location: Multiverse
Mormons worship their leaders. Just watch them.

_________________
In the end Elder Oaks was correct, In Mormonism “it is wrong to criticize leaders even if the criticism is true”. In fact it may be the only real true Doctrine left in Mormonism from the beginning of the restoration. --Bill Reel


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:12 pm 
Star A

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:50 pm
Posts: 98
Maksutov wrote:
Mormons worship their leaders. Just watch them.


Or, you could ask them...

No, I don't worship my leaders. This is one accusation that I have always been confused by. Perhaps you could elaborate at what you observe as worship of our leaders. Define worship.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:41 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 11088
Location: Multiverse
pogi wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
Mormons worship their leaders. Just watch them.


Or, you could ask them...

No, I don't worship my leaders. This is one accusation that I have always been confused by. Perhaps you could elaborate at what you observe as worship of our leaders. Define worship.


It's the feeling that Joseph Smith expressed towards himself:

"I have more to boast of than any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I."

I've observed the reverence, deference and fawning of members toward GAs for 63 years. In person and by video. At BYU, General Conference and on the streets of Provo. I know what I'm looking at. :wink:

_________________
In the end Elder Oaks was correct, In Mormonism “it is wrong to criticize leaders even if the criticism is true”. In fact it may be the only real true Doctrine left in Mormonism from the beginning of the restoration. --Bill Reel


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:23 am 
God

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:01 am
Posts: 8145
pogi wrote:
No, I don't worship my leaders. This is one accusation that I have always been confused by. Perhaps you could elaborate at what you observe as worship of our leaders. Define worship.


Follow the Prophet, he knows the way.
You can always trust the living Prophets.
Do you sustain the General Authroities of the Church?

Do you have an example where you’ve gone against the counsel of a General Authority because you’ve considered they were wrong?

_________________
Joseph Smith proposed to Fanny in the same way Trump proposed to Stormy Daniels.
(Fence Sitter, Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:20pm)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:36 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 11088
Location: Multiverse
Encounters with GAs aren't always inspiring.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... a_general/

_________________
In the end Elder Oaks was correct, In Mormonism “it is wrong to criticize leaders even if the criticism is true”. In fact it may be the only real true Doctrine left in Mormonism from the beginning of the restoration. --Bill Reel


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:49 pm 
Star A

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:50 pm
Posts: 98
Quote:
It's the feeling that Joseph Smith expressed towards himself:

"I have more to boast of than any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I."

I've observed the reverence, deference and fawning of members toward GAs for 63 years. In person and by video. At BYU, General Conference and on the streets of Provo. I know what I'm looking at. :wink:


Joseph may have boasted once, therefore Mormons worship their leaders?

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Jose ... m/Boasting


Maksutov, have you ever had reverence or deference for another human? Would you say that you worship those people? Do you accuse all humans who fawn over other humans, guilty of worshiping those they behave favorably and affectionately towards?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:53 pm 
Star A

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:50 pm
Posts: 98
Quote:
Follow the Prophet, he knows the way.
You can always trust the living Prophets.
Do you sustain the General Authroities of the Church?

Do you have an example where you’ve gone against the counsel of a General Authority because you’ve considered they were wrong?


Trusting and sustaining leaders is equivalent to "worship"?

I have plenty of examples of prophets being wrong. Adam-God, blood atonement, blacks and the priesthood, etc. etc. etc.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:16 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 11088
Location: Multiverse
pogi wrote:
Quote:
It's the feeling that Joseph Smith expressed towards himself:

"I have more to boast of than any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I."

I've observed the reverence, deference and fawning of members toward GAs for 63 years. In person and by video. At BYU, General Conference and on the streets of Provo. I know what I'm looking at. :wink:


Joseph may have boasted once, therefore Mormons worship their leaders?

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Jose ... m/Boasting


Maksutov, have you ever had reverence or deference for another human? Would you say that you worship those people? Do you accuse all humans who fawn over other humans, guilty of worshiping those they behave favorably and affectionately towards?



I didn't say that.

No, I don't worship people. I have love, respect, affection. That isn't the same thing. I keep it straight. I don't have faith in any man and I don't believe in events and alleged facts based upon subjective feelings like burning bosoms and the recommendations of fictitious texts. I have no confidence in magic rocks and their promoters. Call me cynical. :lol:

_________________
In the end Elder Oaks was correct, In Mormonism “it is wrong to criticize leaders even if the criticism is true”. In fact it may be the only real true Doctrine left in Mormonism from the beginning of the restoration. --Bill Reel


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:20 am 
God

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:01 am
Posts: 8145
pogi wrote:
Quote:
Follow the Prophet, he knows the way.
You can always trust the living Prophets.
Do you sustain the General Authroities of the Church?

Do you have an example where you’ve gone against the counsel of a General Authority because you’ve considered they were wrong?


Trusting and sustaining leaders is equivalent to "worship"?

I have plenty of examples of prophets being wrong. Adam-God, blood atonement, blacks and the priesthood, etc. etc. etc.


Got any examples of the current Prophets being wrong right now?
And got any examples of you acting against their counsel/voting to not sustain because you believe them to be wrong?

_________________
Joseph Smith proposed to Fanny in the same way Trump proposed to Stormy Daniels.
(Fence Sitter, Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:20pm)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:45 am 
Star A

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:50 pm
Posts: 98
Maksutov wrote:
I didn't say that.

No, I don't worship people. I have love, respect, affection. That isn't the same thing. I keep it straight. I don't have faith in any man and I don't believe in events and alleged facts based upon subjective feelings like burning bosoms and the recommendations of fictitious texts. I have no confidence in magic rocks and their promoters. Call me cynical. :lol:


I am happy to hear you don't worship people. Neither do I. Neither does any Mormon I have ever met. We are JUST like you in that respect. We have love, respect, affection, and place a great amount of trust in our prophets, but I see no evidence of worship.

No, we do not have faith in man in any sense other than trust. We have faith in God and trust that he reveals his truths through prophets. No worship. Let it go...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:50 am 
Star A

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:50 pm
Posts: 98
I have a question wrote:
Got any examples of the current Prophets being wrong right now?
And got any examples of you acting against their counsel/voting to not sustain because you believe them to be wrong?


Sorry, I am not going to play this game when I don't see any point to it. Why would that make a difference? Believing a person to be wrong or right is not equivalent to worship. What if I NEVER questioned a single prophet because I fully believe that EVERY word they speak is inspired by God? Would that equate to people worship? No, it wouldn't. It might equate to blind trust, but not worship.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:59 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 11088
Location: Multiverse
pogi wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
I didn't say that.

No, I don't worship people. I have love, respect, affection. That isn't the same thing. I keep it straight. I don't have faith in any man and I don't believe in events and alleged facts based upon subjective feelings like burning bosoms and the recommendations of fictitious texts. I have no confidence in magic rocks and their promoters. Call me cynical. :lol:


I am happy to hear you don't worship people. Neither do I. Neither does any Mormon I have ever met. We are JUST like you in that respect. We have love, respect, affection, and place a great amount of trust in our prophets, but I see no evidence of worship.

No, we do not have faith in man in any sense other than trust. We have faith in God and trust that he reveals his truths through prophets. No worship. Let it go...


Of course I let it go. I resigned. You don't see me going door to door pushing nonsense on strangers or claiming divine knowledge that I obviously don't have. I have too much integrity, honesty and self respect. For instance, I think that translating hidden books using magic rocks is clearly the act of a charlatan. It's fascinating that people have been trained to think about and mention said charlatan in tones of deep respect and reverence, but my study of fanatical religious movements and cults has demonstrated that it's actually pretty common throughout the world, especially among the less educated and those without internet.

Please don't pretend that you haven't heard people bear their testimonies of prophets and churches being "true". That isn't about "trusting" them, it's about believing in them. You can come up with your own private Mormonism, of course, like so many people do, but convince me that it's the same as the institutions, the Corporation? Nope. :lol:

Doctrines and programs come and go but the WORSHIP of the leaders continues. They are farther along on the road to Godhood, so giving them a little of what God gets is no biggie. :razz:

.................
Merriam-Webster

Definition of worship
worshipped also worshiped; worshipping also worshiping
transitive verb
1 : to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
2 : to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion a celebrity worshipped by her fans

_________________
In the end Elder Oaks was correct, In Mormonism “it is wrong to criticize leaders even if the criticism is true”. In fact it may be the only real true Doctrine left in Mormonism from the beginning of the restoration. --Bill Reel


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:46 am 
Star A

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:50 pm
Posts: 98
Maksutov wrote:
Of course I let it go. I resigned.

No, I mean let go of the idea that Mormon's worship their leaders. We don't.

Quote:
That isn't about "trusting" them, it's about believing in them.

So, if you believe in someone, you are worshiping them?

Quote:
Definition of worship
worshipped also worshiped; worshipping also worshiping
transitive verb
1 : to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
2 : to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion a celebrity worshipped by her fans

If you are defining "worship" as great respect, honor, and devotion for another person...well, then I guess we worship our prophets. But if THAT is the definition you are using, I don't see it as very weird that we worship another person. I hope it could be said (by using that definition) that all married people "worship" their spouses in the same way, with great respect, honor, love, and devotion.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:03 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 11088
Location: Multiverse
pogi wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
Of course I let it go. I resigned.

No, I mean let go of the idea that Mormon's worship their leaders. We don't.

Quote:
That isn't about "trusting" them, it's about believing in them.

So, if you believe in someone, you are worshiping them?

Quote:
Definition of worship
worshipped also worshiped; worshipping also worshiping
transitive verb
1 : to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
2 : to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion a celebrity worshipped by her fans

If you are defining "worship" as great respect, honor, and devotion for another person...well, then I guess we worship our prophets. But if THAT is the definition you are using, I don't see it as very weird that we worship another person. I hope it could be said (by using that definition) that all married people "worship" their spouses in the same way, with great respect, honor, love, and devotion.


Call it whatever you want, it's your religion. :lol: You have to live with it. We get to comment on it. :cool: You may experience some discomfort. :biggrin:

_________________
In the end Elder Oaks was correct, In Mormonism “it is wrong to criticize leaders even if the criticism is true”. In fact it may be the only real true Doctrine left in Mormonism from the beginning of the restoration. --Bill Reel


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:06 pm 
Star A

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:50 pm
Posts: 98
Maksutov wrote:
Call it whatever you want, it's your religion. :lol: You have to live with it. We get to comment on it. :cool: You may experience some discomfort. :biggrin:


Correction, I get to live with it :wink:

Comment away! I enjoy the dialogue, but it would just be nice if critics stopped making false accusations. If you are going to let us define our own religion, at least respect that right and accept it when we tell you that we don't worship our leaders (at least in the way that some imply). Thanks!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:36 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 11088
Location: Multiverse
pogi wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
Call it whatever you want, it's your religion. :lol: You have to live with it. We get to comment on it. :cool: You may experience some discomfort. :biggrin:


Correction, I get to live with it :wink:

Comment away! I enjoy the dialogue, but it would just be nice if critics stopped making false accusations. If you are going to let us define our own religion, at least respect that right and accept it when we tell you that we don't worship our leaders (at least in the way that some imply). Thanks!


Good for you, don't worship them. Just trust them. A wise man once said "Trust but verify." You should verify them, too. There is plenty of reason not to trust them. If you want to trust them, it may be that you just don't trust yourself. And you may have reasons for that. It's all within your rights as an American, if you are one. You can believe absolutely anything you want. And you may have noticed that people do.

We critics probably make false accusations and true accusations. Just like Mormons do. (I would love to see you define "Mormonism", for sure.)

You see, pogi, it comes down to the magic rock. Con men use magic rocks. That was always true and always will be. If he could lie about magic rocks, polygamy and translating Egyptian, he could certainly lie about visions and meetings with personages. He could even get witnesses to sign their names to things that didn't happen--it's totally possible and far more likely than some backwoods theophany. The 19th century was all about people seeing angels and spooks that somehow haven't persisted into our present day. No, we live in the age of excuses and denial. The prophets have no discernment, can't use the magic rock and outsource their duties to administrators, BYU researchers and attorneys.

Image

_________________
In the end Elder Oaks was correct, In Mormonism “it is wrong to criticize leaders even if the criticism is true”. In fact it may be the only real true Doctrine left in Mormonism from the beginning of the restoration. --Bill Reel


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:59 pm 
Star A

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:50 pm
Posts: 98
Maksutov wrote:
Good for you, don't worship them. Just trust them. A wise man once said "Trust but verify." You should verify them, too. There is plenty of reason not to trust them. If you want to trust them, it may be that you just don't trust yourself. And you may have reasons for that. It's all within your rights as an American, if you are one. You can believe absolutely anything you want. And you may have noticed that people do.

We critics probably make false accusations and true accusations. Just like Mormons do. (I would love to see you define "Mormonism", for sure.)

You see, pogi, it comes down to the magic rock. Con men use magic rocks. That was always true and always will be. If he could lie about magic rocks, polygamy and translating Egyptian, he could certainly lie about visions and meetings with personages. He could even get witnesses to sign their names to things that didn't happen--it's totally possible and far more likely than some backwoods theophany. The 19th century was all about people seeing angels and spooks that somehow haven't persisted into our present day. No, we live in the age of excuses and denial. The prophets have no discernment, can't use the magic rock and outsource their duties to administrators, BYU researchers and attorneys.

Image


Trust and verify. Good advice. Thanks.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group