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 Post subject: Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:14 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
And, in actuality, he *does not* want anyone to read the book. Down in the comments, one poster claimed to have read it, at which point DCP immediately declared that he was too busy to have a discussion about it. Honestly, I sincerely doubt that DCP read the book himself.


It's a tough call. Yeah, there's not going to be a discussion about this or any other book. But does he want critics to read it? I think it's yes and no.

As an analogy-- for the first time in many years, I have a friend forwarding me right-wing emails. I didn't tell him to but I didn't tell him not to either. He had to forward me a couple because he brought up the points in a conversation and was all confused over them, so I tried to extract the key words to search for later, and he ended up forwarding the emails to me. 60% of the stuff he sends is filtered (based on samples) out by Snopes. Well, he knows about Snopes, and it's really not good enough because it's the most shallow of critiques, and doesn't do justice to what utter garbage this stuff is.

Well, does my friend want me to read this stuff or not? Because when I read it, it's easily refuted and I don't spare the rod. But he just doesn't care. In his right-wing mind, I'm not a liberal at heart, and he thinks one of these days something is going to connect with me. He's encouraged when on the rare occasion, some touching story he says with minimal political investment can't be refuted and so I stay my hand upon the lever and don't flush immediately, or one out of 50 of the jokes I admit is kind of funny.

I do not quite know how to express myself on this matter. If 5% of what he sends me could possibly be true, then while he sits back and invests nothing as far as research goes -- just like DCP -- I have to be open to the possibility that if I read 10,000 of these emails, something is going to get confirmed and so it's a good thing I just don't give up. What I have tried to tell him, unsuccessfully, is that it is like the story of the boy who cried wolf. After the first ten he sent most are outright fabrications from 15 years ago still being recycled by right-wingers, why should I even read a single thing he sends me ever again?

Do you see how the game has changed as we lower our standards? In my entire life, I have never recommended anyone read a book as bad as DCPs recommendation, and I am even counting my teen years when I read some utter crap. And it is obvious. The summary from the publisher alone is enough to wave the hand and move on.

it is like these people have a sense for the power of the failure of the principle of induction. I have to waste time and money on utter crap, because even if the last 99 emails or books i have read are junk, that does not mean things do not turn around at 100. that is their logic because they know they are right, it is just a matter of time before it is demonstrated.

You cannot say anything about the boy who cried wolf because they just do not get it, and if you do a thorough review they won't read it or even care, they are just sitting back and letting you tire yourself out. So in that sense, yeah, they want you to read it because it is a waste of your time and it doesn't hurt them one way or another.

_________________
FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero


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 Post subject: Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:56 pm 
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Does anyone think that Peterson puts a lot of thought into the things he proposes or writes about? I mean, there are about a dozen or so topics in Mormon History that I am really interested in writing about. I'm lucky if I post three or four articles a year on my blog because of the thought and research and just plain effort that go into writing them. I admire people who can do short blurbs on current events, I'm just not built that way, I guess. I want to thoroughly study out things, plan on how to present and then footnote the hell out of it.

How does Peterson's mind work? I've actually thought about that, and I can't figure him out. As Gad mentioned, what good is recommending that particular book? I can't really see any. It's aimed at a very narrow audience, people that really want to believe that ____. It's really sad that people are duped by authors like Bethell who are targeting a certain audience and make their living the same way that snake oil salesmen did in the 19th century. But what the hell is someone like Peterson doing by claiming the book was "stimulating"? Seems like he is only feeding his dissonance. Because we all know that they know it's all a sham. What's it like to live without integrity? What's it like to be responsible for promoting this crap and helping to dupe people?

I never thought we would live in an age when people are so easily duped by made up BS. I mean, Trump has set the tone and brought this kind of ____ into the mainstream. If Trump claimed there were men on the moon who wore Quaker outfits, his supporters would probably believe him. I'm disgusted and terrified of where this country appears to be headed.

Peterson is doing his bit to help this kind of thinking along. Does he ever think about what he is doing? Or is he an evil degenerate like Trump who only cares about their ego and how they can make a buck?

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:09 am 
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grindael wrote:
Does anyone think that Peterson puts a lot of thought into the things he proposes or writes about? I mean, there are about a dozen or so topics in Mormon History that I am really interested in writing about. I'm lucky if I post three or four articles a year on my blog because of the thought and research and just plain effort that go into writing them. I admire people who can do short blurbs on current events, I'm just not built that way, I guess. I want to thoroughly study out things, plan on how to present and then footnote the hell out of it.

How does Peterson's mind work? I've actually thought about that, and I can't figure him out. As Gad mentioned, what good is recommending that particular book? I can't really see any. It's aimed at a very narrow audience, people that really want to believe that ____. It's really sad that people are duped by authors like Bethell who are targeting a certain audience and make their living the same way that snake oil salesmen did in the 19th century. But what the hell is someone like Peterson doing by claiming the book was "stimulating"? Seems like he is only feeding his dissonance. Because we all know that they know it's all a sham. What's it like to live without integrity? What's it like to be responsible for promoting this crap and helping to dupe people?

I never thought we would live in an age when people are so easily duped by made up BS. I mean, Trump has set the tone and brought this kind of ____ into the mainstream. If Trump claimed there were men on the moon who wore Quaker outfits, his supporters would probably believe him. I'm disgusted and terrified of where this country appears to be headed.

Peterson is doing his bit to help this kind of thinking along. Does he ever think about what he is doing? Or is he an evil degenerate like Trump who only cares about their ego and how they can make a buck?


Self-deception is a sad process, it is most destructive when a person learns they are or were wrong about something, and rather than admitting it, updating their mindset with the new information, they construct ways to defend themselves from the dissonance. Their world then becomes smaller as well as their autonomy.

On the bright side, and this is what I love about the concept of repentence, is that admitting fault and error when it exists allows a person to understand and learn more. It also frees them, their time and mental energies, to be able to engage in life more directly. And, it's never too late to repent.


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 Post subject: Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:14 am 
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Water Dog wrote:
One review.

<snip>

Thank you for posting this. It was fun chasing down some of the (many) things mentioned in the review that I had no bloody idea what they were. I learned a lot.

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:26 am 
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So in that sense, yeah, they want you to read it because it is a waste of your time and it doesn't hurt them one way or another.


Dean Robbers, you’ve nailed it right there.


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 Post subject: Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:34 am 
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On the heels of raving about Darwin's House of Cards (published by the Discovery Institute), Dr. Peterson is giving an enthusiastic thumbs-up to another Discovery Institute piece of work, this one a documentary titled "Human Zoos: America’s Forgotten History of Scientific Racism." Here's a description:
Quote:
Human Zoos tells the story of how thousands of indigenous peoples were coercively put on public display in America in the early decades of the twentieth century. Often touted as “missing links” between man and apes, these native peoples were harassed, demeaned, and jeered at. Their public display was arranged with the enthusiastic support of the most elite members of the scientific community and government, and it was promoted uncritically by America’s leading newspapers. The documentary also explores related efforts by government to breed a better race in America through the imposition of “eugenics.” Finally, the documentary tells how independent-minded people of faith challenged these abuses of human dignity and freedom.

Dr. Peterson calls it "a must-see" and "very, very relevant today."

I intend to watch it with my family for family home evening. I haven't looked forward to a movie this much since my ward sponsored a highly enjoyable Saturday night screening (complete with soft seats, loads of buttery popcorn and six (!) varieties of cotton candy, and Fresca and Fanta on tap) of "The Biology of the Second Reich: Social Darwinism and the Origins of World War 1" (Discovery Institute), which, incidentally, Dr. Peterson also highly recommended, describing it as "a fascinating venture into an aspect of intellectual history with which I was unfamiliar."


Last edited by Tom on Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:50 am 
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Craig Paxton wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:
Some book or other from some sorta journalist or other that says Darwin was been refuted, and has outlived its usefulness. Dr. Peterson says he wants serious discussion from only those who HAVE read the book, and is WILLING to engage IT, not using some review or other imagining ourselves as quaint experts and dismissing this review of Darwin on religious grounds. Gee, would that he would do that with Ritner on the Book of Abraham eh? :rolleyes:

Sooooo, have any of you read this particular book Peterson mentions? I haven't, but I might. Right now I am swamped with learning how to watercolor paint and am thoroughly and hedonistically enjoying my life, and getting on with an item on my bucket list. And I am told I am gettin decent, and I have only painted 4 paintings thus far! Come check me out on Instagram...

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterso ... cards.html



I'm actually quite surprised that Peterson would be willing to further undermine what little reputation he has remaining by hitching it to this wagon. Does he really think that by linking his name to a book that purports to demolish Darwin's theory of Evolution he is somehow improving his public image? Message to Dr. Peterson....Evolution is a fact...doubt it? Go talk to your colleague's over in the BYU biology department, I'm sure that they would be more than happy to enlighten you.


DCP is not appealing to people who are truly interested in science or scientifically literate to any real degree. For Christ's sakes, Mormons think Lynn Hilton is a cosmologist and archaeologist. Offering them recycled pap from the DI is hardly different than Joseph Fielding Smith recycling the creationist crap of the Seventh Day Adventists and Baptists. I'm sure he'll sell books, especially to those who are tired of liberal academic and intellectual elites demonstrating superior knowledge. :lol:

DCP's deconstruction and refutation of Western Science will be a good companion to our future governor, Jason Chaffetz's opus in progress, deconstructing the Deep State and refutation of Western Government. If we could only find a way to make "theodemocracy" sound like "Republican".... :cool:

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:09 pm 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
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Gadianton wrote:

You cannot say anything about the boy who cried wolf because they just do not get it, and if you do a thorough review they won't read it or even care, they are just sitting back and letting you tire yourself out. So in that sense, yeah, they want you to read it because it is a waste of your time and it doesn't hurt them one way or another.


Dean Robbers--

You are, of course, correct. As always. I am curious about your last observation, though:

"it doesn't hurt them one way or another."

It seems to me that there is a learning opportunity here: a chance for the faculty and students of Cassius to learn at the feet of the Dean. What, to your mind, constitutes "hurt" for the Mopologists?

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:10 pm 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
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MrStakhanovite wrote:
DCP wrote:
I don't like to ban people


I beg to differ:

Image


Mr. Stak:

I think it's unfortunate you were banned. Still, were you ever able to somehow obtain an answer to your question?

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:19 pm 
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Quote:
Gad
You cannot say anything about the boy who cried wolf because they just do not get it, and if you do a thorough review they won't read it or even care, they are just sitting back and letting you tire yourself out. So in that sense, yeah, they want you to read it because it is a waste of your time and it doesn't hurt them one way or another.


An excellent summary. I actually DID tire myself out, but not in the way the Mopologists were hoping. Now it just doesn't really matter all that much what they say or think, yet in some respects it does, and periodically, I find myself feeling I need to respond to some of their stuff. But life is so adventurous and interesting now that I don't feel guilted into spending every waking and sleeping moment attempting to make sense and defend the nonsense of Mormonism. I am astounded how much more broad, interesting, and fun it all is!

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:39 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
What, to your mind, constitutes "hurt" for the Mopologists?


A challenging question, professor. Well, I think in this case we could contrast evolution with the now defunct LTG theory. Sure, the apologists hate the theory of evolution, but they are a little afraid that it's true. In fact, I've never seen them outright say evolution is false, and there have been several statements of the "I don't reject it" variety. They see an argument they find convincing or maybe just run across a quote from a believing Ph.D. and trumpet it, but they tend to forget the people reading what they write weren't born yesterday and their own science educations aren't that great, and so they get owned. And then it's "Oh, I wasn't saying I for sure agreed with that creationist, I just like to see both sides of the story". But if they can get you to waste dozens of hours reading the book and showing them every little thing that's wrong while they kick back and relax, before they'll back pedal, then in a way, they win.

But it's not this way with the LTG theory. There's no back pedaling here, as Sorenson's testimony on MST once said, it either happened in Mesoamerica or it didn't happen; meaning, the book is false and the Church is false. So yea, when a guy like Jenkins takes them to task on evidence, that seems to have stung, and more than a little bit. But, professor, the human psyche is a complex matter, and the psyche of an apologist I imagine is more complex than the average person's. Above, I said that the apologists are a little afraid that evolution is true, is not that also true of the LGT? I think it has to be. I mean, do you get defensive if someone says the sky is purple? But with the LTG there's no way to hedge the bet, they're all in. So it's a real sensitive matter fueled by decades of pent-up denial.

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FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero


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 Post subject: Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:12 am 
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I was speaking to a friend the other day, and this friend is a member of an exclusive group, who are here in secret and do not let many know about themselves. Well, it seems that on their journey to this place they got a few things wrong, in tapping into our broadcasts they were fascinated by the "Lord of the Rings" and mistook this fantasy as real earth history. I have tried to dissuade my friend of this notion, but there is a faction of this group that cling to the belief that Middle Earth actually exists and that they can discover archaeological evidence that will back up their belief. But many in their own camp have been hammering them with the actual evidence that it's all a fantasy, but some (like my friend) feel that Tolkien was some kind of prophet who discovered the ancient languages of the Eldar and the Dwarves, and translated their ancient records, and that the Vala Oromë are actual gods, but they are simply hidden and want them to have faith in them and at some future time will reveal themselves. They also feel that the Eldar and the Dwarves were such a small group of people, that there is just so little evidence of their existence that it will remain almost impossible to find any to vindicate their belief. But they claim that they will ultimately find it.

This belief by some of them (my friend included) has caused this friend to become very belligerent when we do converse, and now refuses to discuss the matter with me at all, claiming that I am an Anti-Tolkien and that it is pointless to speak with me anymore. I'm not sure where it's all going, but it seems that this faction won't back down and some kind of civil war between them is brewing. If my friend ever does contact me again, I'll be sure to inform you how it all turns out.

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trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain;
Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world
can change your direction:
One step where events converge
may alter your perception.


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 Post subject: Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:43 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Based on the quoted book review, one is left to wonder what it was DCP saw in this book and why. It looks to be a fraudulent work of pseudo-scholarship detectable by anyone who exercises a modicum of caution and common sense.


Good question. I'm the writer of that quoted book review, and I happened to bump into this discussion when it came up in a Google search on my reviews. Fascinating community you have here!

I don't know much about the prevalence of creationism among Mormons. I have an older brother who is a Mormon, and while I don't think he bothers to think about these things much at all, he certainly has expressed at least some sympathy for the creationists when the topic has come up.

Right now there is a bit of a culture-war thing going on and it seems very clear that some people want to enlist the religious in an anti-science crusade. It's being fairly artfully done. Most people, if they recognize that that the motivation for science denialism in a particular case is PRIMARILY religion, will be suspicious of it, so these people, the Discovery Institute in particular, have been seeking to sort of "flip the script." As flipped, the script reads: "Materialism is an atheistic philosophy. Science, as understood through the lens of materialism, is not a search to understand the world so much as it is a mission to obliterate God and turn our children into atheists. But to prop up this materialistic worldview, the scientists are lying; they are ignoring the TRUE science, which points to God."

So, if that's your script, what you have to do is make people think that this alternative "true" science really does exist, and that it really is scientific, and that it does indeed point toward a God, or at least toward the possibility of one. The Intelligent Design project is basically that: attempting to take creationism, strip it of its overtly religious clothing, dress it up as a legitimate scientific enterprise, and then wail and rend garments and complain whenever somebody suggests it isn't really science.

This, of course, is a hopeless task if your intended audience is scientifically literate. But -- great news! -- most people really aren't. Nor do they, to use your phrasing, "exercise a modicum of caution and common sense." The object here is to convince the rubes that this is really science, and that they really are not ignorant if they insist that the earth is 6,000 years old or some such thing. In a culture where anti-intellectualism is running wild, that's enough to make a movement. It won't change the world, but it will keep the donations flowing to the Discovery Institute.

Bethell's book wasn't very good, and it is disappointing to see people who claim to have an interest in science not immediately seeing the thousand things wrong with it. But some of these works are much more deft and clever, and consequently can be harder to critique for people not conversant with the subject. The best of the recent ones (if by "best" we mean "best at misleading people") is probably Stephen Meyer's book Darwin's Doubt, which purports to un-explain the Cambrian Explosion. But when your audience is eager to hear the message, even sorry stuff like Darwin's House of Cards will do the trick.


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 Post subject: Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:06 pm 
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Puck Mendelssohn wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:
Based on the quoted book review, one is left to wonder what it was DCP saw in this book and why. It looks to be a fraudulent work of pseudo-scholarship detectable by anyone who exercises a modicum of caution and common sense.


Good question. I'm the writer of that quoted book review, and I happened to bump into this discussion when it came up in a Google search on my reviews. Fascinating community you have here!

I don't know much about the prevalence of creationism among Mormons. I have an older brother who is a Mormon, and while I don't think he bothers to think about these things much at all, he certainly has expressed at least some sympathy for the creationists when the topic has come up.

Right now there is a bit of a culture-war thing going on and it seems very clear that some people want to enlist the religious in an anti-science crusade. It's being fairly artfully done. Most people, if they recognize that that the motivation for science denialism in a particular case is PRIMARILY religion, will be suspicious of it, so these people, the Discovery Institute in particular, have been seeking to sort of "flip the script." As flipped, the script reads: "Materialism is an atheistic philosophy. Science, as understood through the lens of materialism, is not a search to understand the world so much as it is a mission to obliterate God and turn our children into atheists. But to prop up this materialistic worldview, the scientists are lying; they are ignoring the TRUE science, which points to God."

So, if that's your script, what you have to do is make people think that this alternative "true" science really does exist, and that it really is scientific, and that it does indeed point toward a God, or at least toward the possibility of one. The Intelligent Design project is basically that: attempting to take creationism, strip it of its overtly religious clothing, dress it up as a legitimate scientific enterprise, and then wail and rend garments and complain whenever somebody suggests it isn't really science.

This, of course, is a hopeless task if your intended audience is scientifically literate. But -- great news! -- most people really aren't. Nor do they, to use your phrasing, "exercise a modicum of caution and common sense." The object here is to convince the rubes that this is really science, and that they really are not ignorant if they insist that the earth is 6,000 years old or some such thing. In a culture where anti-intellectualism is running wild, that's enough to make a movement. It won't change the world, but it will keep the donations flowing to the Discovery Institute.

Bethell's book wasn't very good, and it is disappointing to see people who claim to have an interest in science not immediately seeing the thousand things wrong with it. But some of these works are much more deft and clever, and consequently can be harder to critique for people not conversant with the subject. The best of the recent ones (if by "best" we mean "best at misleading people") is probably Stephen Meyer's book Darwin's Doubt, which purports to un-explain the Cambrian Explosion. But when your audience is eager to hear the message, even sorry stuff like Darwin's House of Cards will do the trick.


I have nothing to add except, welcome to the board.

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:12 am 
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Puck Mendelssohn wrote:
Good question. I'm the writer of that quoted book review, and I happened to bump into this discussion when it came up in a Google search on my reviews. Fascinating community you have here!

I don't know much about the prevalence of creationism among Mormons. I have an older brother who is a Mormon, and while I don't think he bothers to think about these things much at all, he certainly has expressed at least some sympathy for the creationists when the topic has come up.

Right now there is a bit of a culture-war thing going on and it seems very clear that some people want to enlist the religious in an anti-science crusade. It's being fairly artfully done. Most people, if they recognize that that the motivation for science denialism in a particular case is PRIMARILY religion, will be suspicious of it, so these people, the Discovery Institute in particular, have been seeking to sort of "flip the script." As flipped, the script reads: "Materialism is an atheistic philosophy. Science, as understood through the lens of materialism, is not a search to understand the world so much as it is a mission to obliterate God and turn our children into atheists. But to prop up this materialistic worldview, the scientists are lying; they are ignoring the TRUE science, which points to God."

So, if that's your script, what you have to do is make people think that this alternative "true" science really does exist, and that it really is scientific, and that it does indeed point toward a God, or at least toward the possibility of one. The Intelligent Design project is basically that: attempting to take creationism, strip it of its overtly religious clothing, dress it up as a legitimate scientific enterprise, and then wail and rend garments and complain whenever somebody suggests it isn't really science.

This, of course, is a hopeless task if your intended audience is scientifically literate. But -- great news! -- most people really aren't. Nor do they, to use your phrasing, "exercise a modicum of caution and common sense." The object here is to convince the rubes that this is really science, and that they really are not ignorant if they insist that the earth is 6,000 years old or some such thing. In a culture where anti-intellectualism is running wild, that's enough to make a movement. It won't change the world, but it will keep the donations flowing to the Discovery Institute.

Bethell's book wasn't very good, and it is disappointing to see people who claim to have an interest in science not immediately seeing the thousand things wrong with it. But some of these works are much more deft and clever, and consequently can be harder to critique for people not conversant with the subject. The best of the recent ones (if by "best" we mean "best at misleading people") is probably Stephen Meyer's book Darwin's Doubt, which purports to un-explain the Cambrian Explosion. But when your audience is eager to hear the message, even sorry stuff like Darwin's House of Cards will do the trick.


Puck, welcome and thank you for both your excellent book review and this post. Mormonism is an interesting case. Mormonism is a religion that canonized the phrase “the glory of God is intelligence” and yet here we see Dr. Daniel C. Peterson of Brigham Young University encouraging others to read a very bad book of pseudo-science. The gambit seems to be one of keeping the people in the pews by hook or crook until the equations are resolved in the right way (preconceived ideas of Divinity). In the meantime, people’s scientific literacy is being actively destroyed such that they are incapable of understanding the equation if it ever is resolved to any theist’s satisfaction. It is a lose-lose proposition for everyone.


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 Post subject: Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:20 am 
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Quote:
This, of course, is a hopeless task if your intended audience is scientifically literate. But -- great news! -- most people really aren't. Nor do they, to use your phrasing, "exercise a modicum of caution and common sense."


I know this is true, but it is still damn frightening to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:23 am 
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Do you think that these pseudo-scientists really believe what they are churning out, or do they know it is a ploy and are simply protecting their way of life? Does anyone think that Peterson really believes this stuff? I mean, I understand that younger people may fall for it, or the uneducated. But Peterson is none of that, nor (probably) the purveyors of this crap. Do they simply think all the real hard science is being manipulated by people as puppets of Satan, or some similar scenario?

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:16 pm 
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grindael wrote:
Do you think that these pseudo-scientists really believe what they are churning out, or do they know it is a ploy and are simply protecting their way of life? Does anyone think that Peterson really believes this stuff? I mean, I understand that younger people may fall for it, or the uneducated. But Peterson is none of that, nor (probably) the purveyors of this crap. Do they simply think all the real hard science is being manipulated by people as puppets of Satan, or some similar scenario?


That's a very hard question to answer. It is one of the ongoing mysteries to me. Now, it's fair to say that the answer must differ somewhat from person to person, of course, but something interesting is going on here.

Limiting the subject to the active, literate, book-writing proponents of ID Creationism -- and therefore leaving off all of those who simply don't know any better -- here is my best take:

(1) I think that all of them start with an ideological position that they feel they must defend. In the great majority of cases this is some form of fundamentalist religion. I think, however, that there are a few cases where it is more of a contrarian impulse -- the kind of rejection-of-authority one finds in such places as the Libertarian community, but translated into the domain of science. Some people just like to feel that the experts are wrong.

(2) To this position add an attitude toward facts: as an advocate, rather than as an investigator. When I was a junior litigator (a job from which I am now happily long-retired), a file would get handed to me and the first thing I knew was who my client was. That mostly determined what my positions were, and my role, in relation to the facts, was to render and construe the evidence, at least to the outside world, in the most favorable way possible. This can, if you are not careful, lead to a state where you're better at convincing yourself than you are at making a convincing argument. It can also lead you, if you are not careful, to a poor ethical state where you feel that giving the facts a good hard twist, or just outright misrepresenting them, is okay because it is in service of getting the "correct" result.

(3) Now, blend in a bit of paranoia/persecution complex. The scientific community, now that you've adopted the role of "advocate," is pretty much your adversary. Your adversary has resources, including research grants, control over research facilities, et cetera. You feel that if you could only take over the discussion and shove your way in, your ideas could win the day. But doing this requires a revolution, and a revolution needs angry people with torches.

(4) At this point, you're in clear "end justifies the means" territory. There are populations that might be mobilized to breach the fortress-walls of "Big Science." Yes, those populations do tend to consume a lot of meth and chaw, but they also pay taxes and have votes. The mission is to get those people whipped up into a frenzy and change the world -- all, of course, for the better, because you've constructed a reality where the enemy is philosophical materialism and is identified with every evil in the world, while your "science" is consilient with faith and with up-lifting values.

Taking all of that, what do you get? You get people -- e.g., Stephen Meyer -- who may indeed be convinced of their answers because they've been dishonest with themselves, and who now are convinced that they not only have good reason to spread these answers, but also have good reason to spread arguments in support of those answers even when those arguments are missing a few screws or are based upon simple misrepresentation of the facts.

The best analogue for this in my other personal experience is the unethical lawyer. I never knew a deeply unethical lawyer who was not also incompetent. This was so very true that one could not really ever unpick the strands of their conduct and figure out which strands represented dishonesty and which represented witlessness. And so it is with such characters as Tom Bethell or Stephen Meyer. At points, they seem to be deeply confused. At other points, they are clearly quite dishonest. But even when it seems to be mostly one or mostly the other, I suspect that it is always a blend.

I am always reminded of this passage from Medawar's review of Teilhard de Chardin's The Phenomenon of Man:

"It is a book widely held to be of the utmost profundity and significance; it created something like a sensation upon its publication in France, and some reviewers hereabouts called it the Book of the Year --- one, the Book of the Century. Yet the greater part of it, I shall show, is nonsense, tricked out with a variety of metaphysical conceits, and its author can be excused of dishonesty only on the grounds that before deceiving others he has taken great pains to deceive himself."


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 Post subject: Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:07 pm 
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Puck Mendelssohn,

Welcome to the board and thank you for (so far) two insightful posts. As you may have noticed, we do have the odd creationist lurking about here. Hopefully they have considered your contributions.

It may well seem strange to you, but DCP often posted here up until a few years ago. His stated views on a number of topics eventually strayed so far from reason and reality that he was shamed into exile.

Nowadays, it is well known that he scans these threads for mention of his name and is not above responding to perceived slights by posting on his own protected turf.

Hope you decide to stick around, or at least check back in now and then.

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:38 pm 
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DrW wrote:
Nowadays, it is well known that he scans these threads for mention of his name and is not above responding to perceived slights by posting on his own protected turf.


Ah. Well, I have posted over there on his blog, so he certainly is welcome to respond. My sense is, however, that he may not have wanted to hear from people who are capable of a thorough criticism of Bethell, but may instead have preferred to hear something positive. I guess I'll find out whether he's interested in dialogue, but there are warning signs that that's not the case -- he seems to have reserved to himself the right to imagine that anybody whose judgment of Bethell is sufficiently negative is simply some sort of dogmatist:

"I would be interested in reactions to the book from people who have actually read it. Not, that is, from people who object in principle to any questioning of Darwinian ideology, from people who fear that any serious deviation from Darwinian orthodoxy might expose society to a rebirth of religion, or, even, from people who, not interested in reading the book for themselves, skim a couple of reviews of it and feel themselves, therefore, fully equipped to pronounce judgment on it."

I, of course, do not object to questioning of evolution (I do not know of any people who subscribe to "Darwinian ideology" or "Darwinian orthodoxy," whatever those may be). But I suspect that if he has had enough Kool-Aid, he'll mistake me for someone who does.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:48 pm 
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I am actually disappointed in hearing this about Peterson. I had imagined that he would have had some sort of stronger stance of acceptance of science than to push material from the Discovery Institute which is just a small step above organizations such as Answers in Genesis. I expected more. A simple declaration that the church has no official stance on evolution for instance or a statement that those who use evolution against the church are attacking a straw man, etc. And then he controls the "discussion" by threat of banning? This reminds me of the time I wandered onto the Evolution Fairytale Forum. Pretty bleak.

Quote:
That part of a living being that exists before mortal birth, dwells in the physical body during mortality, and exists after death as a separate being until the Resurrection. All living things—mankind, animals, and plants—were spirits before any form of life existed upon the earth (Gen. 2:4–5; Moses 3:4–7). The spirit body looks like the physical body (1 Ne. 11:11; Ether 3:15–16; D&C 77:2; 129).

https://www.LDS.org/scriptures/gs/spirit

Quote:
A normal sperm count is between 15 million and 200 million sperm per milliliter of semen.
A normal amount is about 2.5 milliliters.

https://www.webmd.com/infertility-and-r ... analysis#1

So 37.5 to 500 million minus one potential siblings.

With respect to the race to the egg we have:

Quote:
It DOES make a difference which wins the race: Scientists scan 100 sperm from one man - and find huge DNA differences.
Even sperm cells from the same man have big genetic differences, a study has shown.
Each of the 91 sperm studied showed an average of 23 recombination, or mixing, events. But individual sperm varied greatly in the way they experienced spontaneous genetic mutations.
Every sperm contained between 25 and 36 ‘new’ mutations, not seen in other body cells.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech ... ences.html

So TBMs, how does the creator go about making our physical bodies appear the same as our spirit beings? DNA doesn't affect our appearance? Pleease!

Looks pretty random doesn't it? Choice of mate affects the DNA in the mix. Choice of day of the month to hop in the sack affects which load of semen is going to go into play. And finally even if these two variables were to be somehow nailed down/controlled from beyond "the veil" we are still left with millions of possible outcomes.

Biology is completely incompatible with LDS theology. So the mops must change either what it really is that the church teaches to the general membership or embrace pseudoscience. Usually it seems they engage in a bit of both. Can't seem to bring themselves to evaluate the trees in order to save the imaginary forest I guess.

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