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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:30 am 
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The thing about racism, especially embraced racism, is that it shows an obvious defect in the way a person thinks. You can't be thinking clearly or logically if you are convinced by racist sentiment. Just the very idea that by being born into a particular race, a situation for which you have absolutely no control, you are automatically superior to everyone not in that race is idiotic on its face.

Have you ever met a smart racist? I haven't.

So if one comes along trying to link climate to communism, well... it's to be expected. These guys just aren't that bright.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:45 pm 
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ajax18 wrote:
https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/climate-change-a-back-door-to-communism-and-the-united-nations-admits-it/

A decent explanation on the connection of global warming and communism.

That Article is dated from January of 2014. Since that time, 2016 was the hottest year on record with 2015 and 2017 essentially being tied for the 2nd hottest year on record. And we have been recently having this big heatwave within the Central and Eastern U.S.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.co ... index.html

ETA: At least 33 deaths across Quebec, Canada is being blamed with this recent big heat wave.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... a-44730887

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Last edited by Brackite on Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:24 pm 
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Given the number of heat records being broken around the globe in the recent heat wave, I’m surprised by the relative dearth of climate change coverage. The press often needs a hook to discuss the issue, and this seems like a prime one.

It’s becoming more and more clear that we are not going to act in time to avert relatively catastrophic outcomes. It’s hard not to understand the issue and not feel a certain amount of despair.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:33 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
It’s becoming more and more clear that we are not going to act in time to avert relatively catastrophic outcomes. It’s hard not to understand the issue and not feel a certain amount of despair.

I can relate to this. I shudder to think about my daughter's future. It's just getting started.

The problem is that the selfishness that has caused this is the same that prevents solutions. The kind of greed it takes to have billions of dollars and still feel like you need more is the only kind of greed that would sacrifice the planet for your own wealth exaltation.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:47 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
It’s becoming more and more clear that we are not going to act in time to avert relatively catastrophic outcomes. It’s hard not to understand the issue and not feel a certain amount of despair.
I understand that despair. By an increasing number of credible accounts we are approaching and accelerating towards or may even have passed a number of important tipping points from which it will likely be impossible to recover. Potentially the most devastating of these tipping points is this one:
Quote:
But the biggest factor in all of this, and the one tipping point which we have already passed is this one — the social tipping point. (Granted this is hypothetical and I admit that it's difficult to argue against speculation and prognostication.)

What I see as the social tipping point is the part where people stop caring because they feel entirely powerless to affect any change, where governments choose not to act for leverage (political/financial etc.), where governments and corporations choose not to act in order to preserve/increase profits, where the food supply gets put under more pressure due changes in climate (extremes, predictability, rainfall etc.) and so people will be less interested in eating locally or sustainably and more interested in just trying to get enough food, where electricity usage will skyrocket as people try to maintain a comfortable temperature indoors while it's either baking or freezing outside, where we will be faced with increasingly severe humanitarian crises (water shortages, coastal flooding, islands being submerged, famines etc.), where wars over resources will only increase, and the sum of these social feedback loops will cripple our ability to focus on ways to address runaway climate change because we will be dealing with other more urgent issues that cannot be ignored.

The reason that I believe we have passed this so-called social tipping point is because collectively we have not only failed to halt carbon emissions, but instead we have only been increasing them. If there were hope for us to achieve serious change in order to avert catastrophic climate change, it would be indicated by the countries of the world rallying to make carbon emissions simply plateau. But we can't even do that. So I believe that it's too late for the world to not only stop the increase of carbon emissions, but that it's too late to be able to bring about the dramatic changes in lifestyles/living standards etc. required to avoid either increasing carbon emissions (which is a catastrophe) or simply halting carbon emissions where they are right now (which is a catastrophe).

And I think that as we have surpassed this social tipping point, it will cause feedback loops in society as well as in the environment which will push us increasingly faster down a path of catastrophic climate change.


People with attitudes like Ajax tend to amplify this tipping point by refusing to acknowledge the problem, and thus delaying needed actions to prevent or solve it, this greatly increasing the likelihood that the problem will become so severe that governments will feel forced in extremis to mandate the very restrictions on behavior and personal freedom that Ajax fears most.

Some Schmo wrote:
I can relate to this. I shudder to think about my daughter's future. It's just getting started.

I feel exactly the same way! I am terrified for the sake of my precious grandchildren!

Some Schmo wrote:
The problem is that the selfishness that has caused this is the same that prevents solutions. The kind of greed it takes to have billions of dollars and still feel like you need more is the only kind of greed that would sacrifice the planet for your own wealth exaltation.


Yes. You and I have discussed before the irrationality of extremely wealthy and powerful people continuing to strive for more and more of what has already demonstrably failed to make them happy and content.

I hope, however, that it may still be possible to at least partially turn things around, though:
UN climate science chief: it's not too late to avoid dangerous temperature rise. According to Hoesung Lee, head of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change,
Quote:
But Lee insisted the 2C goal remained technically feasible, although it could become prohibitively expensive. “2C is achievable, and if we fail to act according to what the IPCC has been advising, the cost will rise phenomenally,” Lee said. “The sooner we act, we will be able to achieve 2C stabilisation cost-effectively,” he went on. “The longer we wait to take action, the cost will be a lot higher.”

No one denies that preventing or ameliorating climate change will be enormously expensive, which is why so many are resisting doing anything about it, but if AGW is real, any delays in addressing the problem will exponentially explode the cost of dealing with it, let alone the incredible societal and economic costs of ignoring the problem altogether and pretending It doesn't exist!

So much for the consequences of failure to act ("the stick"). Let's not forget that there are also enormous potential rewards ("the carrot") from transitioning away from dependence on fossil fuels to renewable energy sources--so potenially lucrative that it essentially insane to not pursue that approach, regardless of what is true or not true about AGW. This has also been frequently discussed on this forum, and is becoming more and more apparent all the time. Why would anyone, whether liberal or conservative (who doesn't make his living from the production, distribution and sale of fossil fuels) object to that? It makes no sense whatsoever!

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:32 am 
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Gunnar wrote:
So much for the consequences of failure to act ("the stick"). Let's not forget that there are also enormous potential rewards ("the carrot") from transitioning away from dependence on fossil fuels to renewable energy sources--so potenially lucrative that it essentially insane to not pursue that approach, regardless of what is true or not true about AGW. This has also been frequently discussed on this forum, and is becoming more and more apparent all the time. Why would anyone, whether liberal or conservative (who doesn't make his living from the production, distribution and sale of fossil fuels) object to that? It makes no sense whatsoever!

I think about this all the time. I think people in this country, both left and right, are largely followers. If their team says a thing, they repeat that thing. The fossil fuel assholes of the world have American "conservatives" in their pockets, so conservatives repeat their crap.

Some people don't feel right unless they're being an asshole to the planet, and hence, everyone else. I don't pretend to understand what motivates American right-wingers. All I've got is, they revel in being assholes and lemmings.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:40 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
Given the number of heat records being broken around the globe in the recent heat wave, I’m surprised by the relative dearth of climate change coverage. The press often needs a hook to discuss the issue, and this seems like a prime one.

It’s becoming more and more clear that we are not going to act in time to avert relatively catastrophic outcomes. It’s hard not to understand the issue and not feel a certain amount of despair.

incessant is the word that comes to mind, which leads to familiarity which leads to contempt.
Climate control has reached chicken little proportions - whether the sky is falling or is not, once again we see a saturation that renders the public ambivalent...score another one for human adaptation.
Point being - the "catastrophe" call has been an ongoing Y2K where most of us here have already experienced several climate-doomsdays that have come and gone. I am becoming more and more accustomed to the idea that climate change is nothing more than an opportunity for dire political action, because protection from pollution/climate requires a sacrifice of democracy (but that is another topic).

Washington Post, January 11, 1970: Headline: “Colder Winters Held [sic] Dawn of New Ice Age / Scientists See Ice Age In the Future”

“Get a grip on your long johns, cold weather haters – the worst may be yet to come. That’s the long-range weather forecast being given out by ‘climatologists,’ the people who study very long-term world weather trends….

“Some of them [climatologists] say the world is in a ‘cold snap’ that started in 1950 and which could last hundreds of years, even bringing on the start of another Ice Age.


New York Times, May 21, 1975: Headline: “Scientists Ask Why World Climate Is Changing; Major Cooling May Be Ahead”

“Sooner or later a major cooling of the climate is widely considered inevitable. Hints that it may already have begun are evident.

Is Mankind Manufacturing a New Ice Age for Itself? (L.A. Times, January 15, 1970)
Scientist predicts a new ice age by 21st century (Boston Globe, April 16, 1970)
U.S. Scientist Sees New Ice Age Coming (The Washington Post, July 9, 1971)
Ice Age Around the Corner (Chicago Tribune, July 10, 1971)
New Ice Age Coming – It’s Already Getting Colder (L.A. Times, October 24, 1971)
British Expert on Climate Change Says New Ice Age Creeping Over Northern Hemisphere(Lewiston Evening Journal, September 11, 1972)
Science: Another Ice Age? (Time Magazine, November 13, 1972)
Ice Age On Its Way, Scientist Says (Toledo Blade, December 13, 1972)
‘Man-made Ice Age’ Worries Scientists (The Free Lance-Star, June 22, 1973)
Weather-watchers think another ice age may be on the way (The Christian Science Monitor, December 11, 1973)
Ominous Changes in the World’s Weather (PDF) (Fortune, February 1974)
Another Ice Age? (Time Magazine, June 24, 1974)
2 Scientists Think ‘Little’ Ice Age Near (The Hartford Courant, August 11, 1974)
Ice Age, worse food crisis seen (The Chicago Tribune, October 30, 1974)
Pollution Could Spur Ice Age, NASA Says (Beaver Country Times, ‎December 4, 1974‎)
Climate Change: Chilling Possibilities (Science News, March 1, 1975)
B-r-r-r-r: New Ice Age on way soon? (The Chicago Tribune, March 2, 1975)
Is Another Ice Age Due? Arctic Ice Expands In Last Decade (Youngstown Vindicator, ‎March 2, 1975‎)
The Cooling World (Newsweek, April 28, 1975)
Oil Spill Could Cause New Ice Age (Milwaukee Journal, December 11, 1975)
Worrisome CIA Report; Even U.S. Farms May be Hit by Cooling Trend (U.S. News & World Report, May 31, 1976)
The Ice Age Cometh… (New York Magazine, January 31, 1977)
The Big Freeze (Time Magazine, January 31, 1977)
Space Mirrors Proposed To Prevent Crop Freezes (Bangor Daily News, February 7, 1977)
We Will Freeze in the Dark (Capital Cities Communications Documentary, Host: Nancy Dickerson, April 12, 1977)
Little Ice Age: Severe winters and cool summers ahead (Calgary Herald, January 10, 1978)
Geologist Says Winters Getting Colder (Middlesboro Daily News, January 16, 1978)
Large Glacial Buildup Could Mean Ice Age (Spokane Daily Chronicle, June 5, 1979)
New ice age almost upon us? (The Christian Science Monitor, November 14, 1979)

"Some say the world will end in fire / Some say in ice" - Robert Frost

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:08 am 
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Lol, did you borrow that discredited list from ldsfaqs?

I immediately recognize at least one of those titles as an article about the economy ... but because you’re just passing along someone else’s BS propaganda and listing any title that just sounds like it’s about cold weather, you won’t even know it.

Thank you for another demonstration on how to be a shallow tool.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:52 am 
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Subby, the myth that scientific consensus predicted imminent global cooling in the '70s has been so thoroughly debunked so many times, even on this forum alone, repeating it once again only further underscores your own ignorance and stupidity and penchant for cherry picking.

What were climate scientists predicting in the 1970s?

Quote:
Peer-Reviewed Literature

However, these are media articles, not scientific studies. A survey of peer reviewed scientific papers from 1965 to 1979 show that few papers predicted global cooling (7 in total). Significantly more papers (42 in total) predicted global warming (Peterson 2008). The large majority of climate research in the 1970s predicted the Earth would warm as a consequence of CO2. Rather than 1970s scientists predicting cooling, the opposite is the case.


Quote:
Scientific Consensus

In the 1970s, the most comprehensive study on climate change (and the closest thing to a scientific consensus at the time) was the 1975 US National Academy of Sciences/National Research Council Report. Their basic conclusion was "…we do not have a good quantitative understanding of our climate machine and what determines its course. Without the fundamental understanding, it does not seem possible to predict climate…"

This is in strong contrast with the current position of the US National Academy of Sciences: "...there is now strong evidence that significant global warming is occurring... It is likely that most of the warming in recent decades can be attributed to human activities... The scientific understanding of climate change is now sufficiently clear to justify nations taking prompt action." This is in a joint statement with the Academies of Science from Brazil, France, Canada, China, Germany, India, Italy, Japan, Russia and the United Kingdom.

In contrast to the 1970s, there are now a number of scientific bodies that have released statements affirming man-made global warming. More on scientific consensus...

Quote:
Reasoning Behind Cooling Predictions

Quite often, the justification for the few global cooling predictions in the 1970s is overlooked. Probably the most famous such prediction was Rasool and Schneider (1971):

"An increase by only a factor of 4 in global aerosol background concentration may be sufficient to reduce the surface temperature by as much as 3.5°K."
Yes, their global cooling projection was based on a quadrupling of atmospheric aerosol concentration. This wasn't an entirely unrealistic scenario - after all, sulfur dioxide (SO2) emissions were accelerating quite rapidly up until the early 1970s (Figure 2). These emissions caused various environmental problems, and as a result, a number of countries, including the USA, enacted SO2 limits through Clean Air Acts. As a result, not only did atmospheric aerosol concentrations not quadruple, they declined starting in the late 1970s:

Similarly, if we now limit CO2 emissions, we can also eventually get global warming under control.


Quote:
Summary

So global cooling predictions in the 70s amounted to media and a handful of peer reviewed studies. The small number of papers predicting cooling were outweighed by a much greater number of papers predicting global warming due to the warming effect of rising CO2. Today, an avalanche of peer reviewed studies and overwhelming scientific consensus endorse man-made global warming. To compare cooling predictions in the 70s to the current situation is both inappropriate and misleading. Additionally, we reduced the SO2 emissions which were causing global cooling. The question remains whether we will reduce the CO2 emissions causing global warming.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:15 am 
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canpakes wrote:
Lol, did you borrow that discredited list from ldsfaqs?

I immediately recognize at least one of those titles as an article about the economy ... but because you’re just passing along someone else’s BS propaganda and listing any title that just sounds like it’s about cold weather, you won’t even know it.

Thank you for another demonstration on how to be a shallow tool.

Are you claiming that the referenced articles did not exist as noted?

Image

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:19 am 
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Gunnar wrote:
Subby, the myth that scientific consensus ...

If you take a moment an re-read my post you will note that i was not disputing the science for warming now or cooling then. My glaring point was in response to the poster's confusion of why "people aren't doing anything"...for which my post provided the chicken-little justification. ergo my whole opening line of "incessant is the word that comes to mind, which leads to familiarity which leads to contempt."

The science is not the obstacle it is the contempt.....and now that climate change is becoming inextricably "political", the science is meaningless to either side....so save your breath.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:23 am 
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Quote:
So global cooling predictions in the 70s amounted to media and a handful of peer reviewed studies. The small number of papers predicting cooling were outweighed by a much greater number of papers predicting global warming due to the warming effect of rising CO2.

Exactly. And the science behind it even at that time was remarkably good. Many assumptions and expectations about the process made at that time have been validated in the 40 or so years since.

Poor subs had to resort to posting a list of what averages about 3 articles a year spread across the US, from a time period of 4 decades ago, to pull together a faulty list with some titles having absolutely nothing to do with actual climate change.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:26 am 
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subgenius wrote:
canpakes wrote:
Lol, did you borrow that discredited list from ldsfaqs?

I immediately recognize at least one of those titles as an article about the economy ... but because you’re just passing along someone else’s BS propaganda and listing any title that just sounds like it’s about cold weather, you won’t even know it.

Thank you for another demonstration on how to be a shallow tool.

Are you claiming that the referenced articles did not exist as noted?

Image

Ooh, great selection. Did you read the article? Not one mention of climate change and not one mention of a future ice age. The article merely notes the challenges in dealing with an exceptionally cold winter.

Thanks for proving my point! : )


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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:46 am 
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So what do you suggest, Subby? Just give up trying to take any action against what is most probably a very serious and present danger just because it has become too politicized? Like it or not, effective solutions to a problem as big as AGW is conceded to be by the vast majority of scientists with relevant expertise, cannot be successfully implemented without a very strong and concerted political will and governmental action and encouragement.

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Last edited by Gunnar on Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:18 am, edited 5 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:46 am 
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It has been done before but here is a link to the actual Time article that Subs shared the cover for.

The astute reader at home will note that it is literally just about a cold year and the problems it presented to the country. No claims or speculations about that one really cold year or if it would be an ongoing trend. Honestly I'm kind of confused how an article making a big deal about how it is "actually" cold for once and that we are experiencing a real winter (the implication being this isn't the norm) is supposed to debunk warming trends...

ETA: Honor with the quicker draw this time

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:34 am 
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Xenophon wrote:
It has been done before but here is a link to the actual Time article that Subs shared the cover for.

The astute reader at home will note that it is literally just about a cold year and the problems it presented to the country. No claims or speculations about that one really cold year or if it would be an ongoing trend. Honestly I'm kind of confused how an article making a big deal about how it is "actually" cold for once and that we are experiencing a real winter (the implication being this isn't the norm) is supposed to debunk warming trends...

ETA: Honor with the quicker draw this time

Even better than that, just randomly google some of the articles mentioned in subfaps copypasta. Check out the mirror article, funny reads and unrelated to anything subfaps is trying to prove. I think about half of them are just made up (this right wing propaganda list has been torn to shreds on this site previously). It’s not surprising that our resident hair insecure, barely literate tool who rarely leaves his red state holler would be persuaded by an unsubstantiated list that that he believed supported his stupidity because, words. You just need faith I suppose, faith and hope and the ability to copy and paste a bunch of words.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:18 am 
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Gunnar wrote:
So what do you suggest, Subby? Just give up trying to take any action against what is most probably a very serious and present danger just because it has become too politicized? Like it or not, effective solutions to a problem as big as AGW is conceded to be by the vast majority of scientists with relevant expertise, cannot be successfully implemented without a very strong and concerted political will and governmental action and encouragement.

No I didn't suggest or even recommend giving up...or doing anything for that matter. What I pointed out was that you, and your compatriots, are in that loop of doing the same thing while expecting different results. Clearly your long lasting and consistent strategy of condescension and outrage for anyone who doesn't agree with your position isn't working and people are so familiar with that strategy that co tempt is all you are receiving for your efforts, correct?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:31 am 
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subgenius wrote:
Clearly your long lasting and consistent strategy of condescension and outrage for anyone who doesn't agree with your position ...


You should make a note that any condescension and outrage is usually reserved for shallow tools who use discredited lists of materials that both do not apply to the discussion and have not even been researched by the denier.

Respect is earned, not gained by copy/pasting bogus ____.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:10 pm 
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canpakes wrote:
You should make a note that any condescension and outrage is usually reserved for shallow tools who use discredited lists of materials that both do not apply to the discussion and have not even been researched by the denier.

Respect is earned, not gained by copy/pasting bogus ____.


Yes! It has often times been noted and pointed out that subby has a deplorable and apparently incorrigible tendency to attempt to support his position by citing materials that either have already been thoroughly discredited, have no application to what he is trying to prove, or, when read in context in their entirety, are found to fail to support his position or, sometimes, support the the exact opposite position. He is a master at carefully "quote mining" from scientists and other respected authors to make them appear to support positions that disagree with and are, sometimes, diametrically opposed to the actual conclusions expressed in the cited materials he quotes from. He is seemingly oblivious to how severely he embarasses and discredits himself every time he does this. Either that, or he just doesn't care, as long as he manages to resonate with others sufficiently gullible or misinformed to accept his conclusions at face value.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:05 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:54 am
Posts: 5877
Gunnar wrote:
Either that, or he just doesn't care, as long as he manages to resonate with others sufficiently gullible or misinformed to accept his conclusions at face value.

This is what it is.

If you look at how folks like this carefully edit or choose their material, it’s obvious that they are choosing to be willfully dishonest. The lie itself is the point; deception carries more value in their mind than any claimed moral standard. Far more important than being honest is being ‘right’, and that banner of deception is then soaked in a false pride that belies some serious subconscious insecurities.

It is simply not possible for subs to post this stuff without knowing that it is BS.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:22 am 
God

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:43 pm
Posts: 12749
canpakes wrote:

It is simply not possible for subs to post this stuff without knowing that it is BS.


I don't think the idea whether something is true or false enters subby's head. It's about whether he thinks it supports his tribal mentality. It's impossible to convince people like Subby or ajax if they think certain conclusion are important to their tribe. Political tribalism is very important to people like subby and ajax, so the only possible way to change their minds is for them to think their tribe is changing their position, or somehow get them to be less tribal in their thinking. Good luck.

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