It is currently Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:34 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 420 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 16, 17, 18, 19, 20
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Trump's War on Children
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:30 am 
Bishop

Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:45 pm
Posts: 487
You specifically said 80% were fraudulent, meaning they're were not legit asylum seekers. You pretend to have retrived this from the links you provided, but none of them say what you said. Instead we get a link to a charge against some immigration attorney in New York, alleged to have provided false info in 180 cases. In reality you just regurgitated the unsubstantiated claim passed around by Daily Caller and Washington Examiner. Ultimately the argument is circular. Basically, since the Trump administration rejects 80% because it doesn't believe 80%, then that 80% must be lying. Yeah, don't ask us to choose sides in a credibility war with anyone against this corrupt administration.

Trump has already pigeonholed all immigrants from the south as rapists and immoral animals. He also flat out said he doesn't want judges involved anymore. He just wants to declare, by virtue of his own authority, that every person presented at the border is "illegal" and should charged with a crime. That's not how it is supposed to be under existing law. Due process matters especially in developed countries. But Trump's America has degenerated into something else. Trump is a career criminal and liar who has never really cared about the law or being truthful, and same is true of his idiot followers like you.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trump's War on Children
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:46 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:37 pm
Posts: 7616
Location: On walkabout
Hawkeye wrote:
You specifically said 80% were fraudulent, meaning they're were not legit asylum seekers. You pretend to have retrived this from the links you provided, but none of them say what you said. Instead we get a link to a charge against some immigration attorney in New York, alleged to have provided false info in 180 cases. In reality you just regurgitated the unsubstantiated claim passed around by Daily Caller and Washington Examiner. Ultimately the argument is circular. Basically, since the Trump administration rejects 80% because it doesn't believe 80%, then that 80% must be lying. Yeah, don't ask us to choose sides in a credibility war with anyone against this corrupt administration.

Trump has already pigeonholed all immigrants from the south as rapists and immoral animals. He also flat out said he doesn't want judges involved anymore. He just wants to declare, by virtue of his own authority, that every person presented at the border is "illegal" and should charged with a crime. That's not how it is supposed to be under existing law. Due process matters especially in developed countries. But Trump's America has degenerated into something else. Trump is a career criminal and liar who has never really cared about the law or being truthful, and same is true of his idiot followers like you.


I looked at all of sub’s links, and none of them supported his claims. If we are talking about the sum of folks who fail the credible fear/reasonable fear screening plus the number of folks whose applications were denied as a percentage of folks who were entitled to a screening, the 80% sounds reasonable. But “found not to qualify for asylum” and “committed immigration fraud” are not the same.

_________________
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trump's War on Children
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:48 am 
Bishop

Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:45 pm
Posts: 487
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fac ... e0e35c5104

Sessions asserts immigration lawyers are coaching their clients to use the “magic words to trigger the credible fear process” and stay in the United States. Let’s break this down.

Most credible fear claims occur after a person is caught by Customs and Border Protection travelling through legal points of entry without proper paperwork or crossing the border illegally via land or sea. In these cases, the foreign national is detained and subject to an expedited deportation.

But if the foreign national claims he or she would face persecution or torture should they return home, the removal process is halted while an immigration official determines the merit of the claim. If an official determines the subject has “credible fear,” the case is referred to an immigration Judge for a full hearing. As of 2009, immigrants determined to have a legitimate claim are eligible for parole from detention, provided they are not a security risk, as they wait their court date.

To make his case that most of these claims are illegitimate, Sessions cites U.S. Citizenship and Immigration data on credible fear proceedings in the United States. In 2009, there were roughly 5,500 credible fear cases. By 2016, that number had skyrocketed to 94,000. Sessions is particularly concerned with the subset of cases in which people crossed over the border illegally and claimed fear of return. In 2016, these claims made up 69,000 of the total 94,000 cases.

Are immigration lawyers to blame for this increase?

When asked what data Sessions is citing to make his case against immigration lawyers, a spokesperson for the Justice Department pointed to a 2015 report by the Government Accountability Office assessing the risk of fraud in the asylum process, which includes credible fear claims. The GAO report found that USCIS and the DOJ’s Executive Office for Immigration Review:

- Were not equipped to assess fraud in the asylum process in accordance with established guidelines.

- Were not able to identify patterns of fraud across asylum applications because the agencies used paper applications instead of electronic ones.

- Had not established clear fraud detection responsibilities for its immigration officers in asylum offices.

However, the report does highlight a few documented cases of fraud, noting that from 2010 to 2014 USCIS terminated asylum status for 374 people because of fraud. And that a 2014 investigation in New York resulted in fraud charges against 30 individuals who were connected to roughly 4,500 asylum applications. Additionally, in 2014, an immigration consultant in Los Angeles, who had been linked to 800 asylum applications, pleaded guilty to document fraud, conspiracy and identity theft.

To be clear, USCIS can’t know how widespread fraud in the asylum system is because they aren’t equipped to assess it. Sessions bases his claim on roughly 6,000 documented cases of fraud, committed by 31 consultants or lawyers. Because the report addresses the asylum system as a whole, it is impossible to know how many of these cases are credible fear claims.

So far, Sessions’s evidence is thin. So what accounts for the surge in credible fear cases?

Immigration experts say the rise in credible fear claims reflects the influx in people fleeing violence, and human rights abuses in Central America’s Northern Triangle – Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador. In 2016, as scores of women and children poured across the border, the Department of Homeland Security announced an initiative to help those escaping the “humanitarian crisis” and seeking refuge in the U.S..

Sessions takes particular issue with credible fear claims made by people crossing the border illegally. Since 2000, the number of people crossing the border illegally from countries other than Mexico has increased fourfold as the number of people from Mexico has steadily declined. It is a significant shift, as many emigrating from Mexico are considered economic migrants in search of better opportunities.

Apprehensions from other countries increased nearly fourfold from 2000-2016, while the number of apprehensions from Mexico dramatically declined.

And the credible fear claims reflect these immigration trends. A 2015 report from the Center for Immigration Studies, found that immigrants from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras made up 80 percent of all new credible fear applications since 2014.

Many of the people crossing the border illegally do so with the help of smugglers, commonly known as “coyotes.” Faye Hipsman, former policy analyst at Migration Policy Institute, said it’s the coyotes — not lawyers — who are likely coaching people crossing the border to make credible fear claims.

“Very few people have had a chance to speak with an immigration lawyer before the credible fear stage,” said Hipsman. “Any instructions to claim fear at that point would be coming from smugglers. They may tell migrants, ‘try to get through undetected, but if you get caught say this.’ ”

That’s because expedited removal, the pre-requisite for credible fear claims, only applies to people picked up within 100 miles of the border who have been in the country for fewer than 14 days. The detainees can consult with lawyers or other counselors before their initial interview, but the interview takes place after the claim of credible fear is made.

A 2013 report by Human Rights First found that nearly 80 percent of immigrants in detention centers do not have a lawyer during their immigration proceedings.

In 2016, USCIS found that 80 percent of the 69,000 inland cases were legitimate, requiring a hearing in immigration court. These cases are reviewed by trained immigration officials, using guidelines set out by USCIS. In 2014, USCIS tightened the guidelines, adding that applicants must “demonstrate a substantial and realistic possibility of succeeding” in their cases.

The Fact Checker documented these facts to DOJ, seeking a response. But we did not receive one.

The Pinocchio Test

Sessions claims “dirty immigration lawyers,” are coaching their clients to make false claims to stay in the United States. But his claim rests on little evidence. The GAO report his spokesman cited details the challenges of evaluating how widespread fraud in the asylum system is. And Sessions seems to be confusing the details of the credible fear process. Most credible fear claims happen at the border without the consultation of lawyers.

The data show that people from Central America, where violence and humanitarian abuses have surged, make up most of the credible fear claims. About 80 percent of the time, a trained immigration official ruled that the cases are legitimate, requiring a court ruling.

Sessions lacks the evidence to make his claim but he uses the lack of evidence in a dubious way, filling in the missing pieces with inflammatory rhetoric on immigration fraud and casting immigration lawyers in a negative light. Until Sessions can point to concrete evidence of widespread fraud, he should refrain from making such sweeping and definitive statements.

We award Sessions Three Pinocchios.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trump's War on Children
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:50 am 
Bishop

Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:45 pm
Posts: 487
Res Ipsa wrote:
I looked at all of sub’s links, and none of them supported his claims. If we are talking about the sum of folks who fail the credible fear/reasonable fear screening plus the number of folks whose applications were denied as a percentage of folks who were entitled to a screening, the 80% sounds reasonable. But “found not to qualify for asylum” and “committed immigration fraud” are not the same.


From the Washington Post article above:

"In 2016, USCIS found that 80 percent of the 69,000 inland cases were legitimate, requiring a hearing in immigration court."

No wonder Trump wants to get rid of the courts and pass judgment on the fly.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trump's War on Children
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:53 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm
Posts: 8047
subgenius wrote:
Image

Chinese families are granted asylum status at a very high rate because it's been ruled that the forced abortions by the Chinese State constitute a form of state persecution. It kinda undermines your "+80%" figure cited, actually.

Anyway, you stated most asylum seekers claims are proven to be fraudulent. That's a narrow term with meaning that can't be thrown around haphazardly. I've asked you to back that claim up since you've recently become the resident CFR troll. Let's see those claims backed up, subbie.

_________________
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trump's War on Children
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:59 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 11133
Location: Your mother's purse
Res Ipsa wrote:
I looked at all of sub’s links, and none of them supported his claims.

And i checked the timestamps for my post and yours...they don't support your claim for "looked at all", unless if by "looked at all" you meant "skimmed for a sentence that said 80%" instead of meaning "read and researched the generous amount for data, resources, and definitions".

_________________
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trump's War on Children
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:03 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 11133
Location: Your mother's purse
honorentheos wrote:
subgenius wrote:
Image

Chinese families are granted asylum status at a very high rate...

oh, a "very high rate", is that like "its a huuuge rate"?
nevertheless, being granted asylum and maintaining it are different points - as are affirmative asylum and defensive asylum...see also expedited deportation and administrative deportation mentioned upthread.

_________________
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trump's War on Children
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:06 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 11133
Location: Your mother's purse
Hawkeye wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/10/26/sessionss-claim-that-dirty-immigration-lawyers-encourage-clients-to-cite-credible-fear/?utm_term=.58e0e35c5104

washington post is a loser in the credibility war - but thanks for posting, next time try a fact based source.

(the irony of you citing the adminstration's sources in your post in not lost...why you agree with them with your argument but disagree with them otherwise?).

_________________
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trump's War on Children
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:18 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:37 pm
Posts: 7616
Location: On walkabout
subgenius wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
I looked at all of sub’s links, and none of them supported his claims.

And i checked the timestamps for my post and yours...they don't support your claim for "looked at all", unless if by "looked at all" you meant "skimmed for a sentence that said 80%" instead of meaning "read and researched the generous amount for data, resources, and definitions".


Two of your links were just to index pages, neither of which had a category for reports on fraud. I checked sections with published asylum statistics, none of which had figures for fraud. I read the press release and indictment, neither of which had figured for fraud. I had previously read the report in your last link, which also has no statistics for fraud.

None of what you linked supports your claims. Not even the Daily Caller or Washington Times Stories Hawkeye linked, which reported the rate of denials, not fraud.

In contrast, the one report that does specifically examine asylum fraud, cited by Hawkeye, is strong evidence against your claims.

_________________
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trump's War on Children
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:22 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:37 pm
Posts: 7616
Location: On walkabout
subgenius wrote:
nevertheless, being granted asylum and maintaining it are different points - as are affirmative asylum and defensive asylum...see also expedited deportation and administrative deportation mentioned upthread.


Do you have a link that supports your description of and figures for expedited deportation and administrative deportation?

_________________
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trump's War on Children
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:22 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm
Posts: 8047
subgenius wrote:
oh, a "very high rate", is that like "its a huuuge rate"?

As in 80%.

Image

And claiming fraud is a something you need to back up, subbie.

_________________
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trump's War on Children
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:23 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:17 pm
Posts: 8047
Res Ipsa wrote:
subgenius wrote:
nevertheless, being granted asylum and maintaining it are different points - as are affirmative asylum and defensive asylum...see also expedited deportation and administrative deportation mentioned upthread.


Do you have a link that supports your description of and figures for expedited deportation and administrative deportation?

And let's not forget he stated they were proven to be fraudulent claims. Not just that their claims were denied.

_________________
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trump's War on Children
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:29 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:37 pm
Posts: 7616
Location: On walkabout
subgenius wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/10/26/sessionss-claim-that-dirty-immigration-lawyers-encourage-clients-to-cite-credible-fear/?utm_term=.58e0e35c5104

washington post is a loser in the credibility war - but thanks for posting, next time try a fact based source.

(the irony of you citing the adminstration's sources in your post in not lost...why you agree with them with your argument but disagree with them otherwise?).

You don’t understand irony or credibility. The Post article cites a government report. Do you have any evidence that it is misciting the report? If not, the Post’s “credibility” is irrelevant. Also, the fact that the report runs counter to the administration’s bias against immigrants is an indication of trustworthiness.

_________________
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trump's War on Children
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:57 am 
Bishop

Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:45 pm
Posts: 487
Res Ipsa wrote:
Two of your links were just to index pages, neither of which had a category for reports on fraud.


Exactly. I clicked on both and they were to nothing specific or related to his assertion, and subs has a history of pulling this stunt. Just throw out hyperlinks to give the impression his lies have support somewhere credible.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trump's War on Children
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:12 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:54 am
Posts: 5888
subgenius wrote:
Her immigration being from a US Commonwealth only required medical screening for admission and she passed.

That was easy. Do you believe that immigration from Puerto Rico today should remain so straightforward?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trump's War on Children
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:08 am 
Bishop

Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:45 pm
Posts: 487
Trying to become an American citizen from another country legally is extremely difficult unless you have money. That's just a fact. Trump even said it himself that he wants more people from Norway instead of "____ countries." That's just his backdoor way of saying he wants more white people, but the point still stands.

I have a LOT of experience, first and second hand, with people trying to come to the United States from Brazil and at the end of the day it all boils down to how much money you have. And this isn't for citizenship, I'm talking about qualifying for a tourist visa.

We have been trying to get a visa for one woman for more than a decade. She was like a second mother to my two oldest kids. She helped take care of them while my wife and I ran the business. But she cannot come to the United States because she doesn't qualify for a Visa. Everyone else in the house qualifies and freely travels back and forth, but she has to stay back home. Why? Because she's a maid. The embassy said she would need to prove she had at least R$10,000 sitting in a Brazilian bank account before they'd ever consider letting a maid come on a tourist visa.

Because rich people can come legally and they can afford to pay for all the processing fees involved to obtain citizenship. Incidentally, I spent roughly $7,000 in application fees for my wife for a process that took about three years.


Last edited by Hawkeye on Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trump's War on Children
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:57 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 11133
Location: Your mother's purse
canpakes wrote:
subgenius wrote:
Her immigration being from a US Commonwealth only required medical screening for admission and she passed.

That was easy. Do you believe that immigration from Puerto Rico today should remain so straightforward?

you mean "...immigration from Puerto RicoCommonwealths today should remain so straightforward"? or specifically Puerto Rico?

_________________
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trump's War on Children
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:31 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:37 pm
Posts: 7616
Location: On walkabout
subgenius wrote:
Those seeking asylum and those who piggy back on the asylum "family" clause:

Expedited Removal occurs for those who illegally attempted to gain asylum by fraud or misrepresentation, or with no entry documents, or by using counterfeit, altered, or otherwise fraudulent or improper documents. (this occurs at the border and comprises about 35% of removals)

Administrative Reason for Removal occurs for those who attemptedto gain asylum by fraud or misrepresentation, or with no entry documents, or by using counterfeit, altered, or otherwise fraudulent or improper documents. (this occurs in court and comprises about 36% of removals)

Sub, CFR for this specific information, both the descriptions and the percentages.

_________________
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trump's War on Children
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:24 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 11133
Location: Your mother's purse
Res Ipsa wrote:
subgenius wrote:
nevertheless, being granted asylum and maintaining it are different points - as are affirmative asylum and defensive asylum...see also expedited deportation and administrative deportation mentioned upthread.


Do you have a link that supports your description of and figures for expedited deportation and administrative deportation?

already provided, can't click the mouse for ya!

_________________
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trump's War on Children
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:39 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:37 pm
Posts: 7616
Location: On walkabout
subgenius wrote:
already provided, can't click the mouse for ya!

Which of the links you provided links to the specific information I quoted?

_________________
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trump's War on Children
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:40 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:37 pm
Posts: 7616
Location: On walkabout
Here's a look at how the no tolerance policy has affected the quality of care that children have received. https://www.propublica.org/article/sout ... grant-kids

_________________
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 420 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 16, 17, 18, 19, 20

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot], MeDotOrg, SteelHead and 26 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group