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 Post subject: Trump, Joseph Smith & "Fake News"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:35 pm 
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So it occurred to me why so many LDS support the liar we have as a president. They have been conditioned by a culture which automatically rejects anything negative about Joseph Smith as "Fake News". They are willing to believe anything good about their heroes and reject anything bad as simply made up or not that important.

I think in Trump we have a great example of exactly how Joseph Smith acted during the Nauvoo period. Both men have been accused of inappropriate behavior with women from a position of power, both men are quick to attack anyone who publicly challenges them, both men have a carousel of quality supporters who come and go and are welcomed as heroes when they arrive and denigrated as losers when they leave, both men rely on their immediate families as their closest advisers, both men set the standard for narcissism, both men take credit for anything good than happens around them and blames everyone else for the bad.

You want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo? Just look at Trump.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump, Joseph Smith & "Fake News"
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:12 am 
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True. There are lots of similarities between Joseph Smith and Trump. I also see similarities between those two and Andrew Jackson. During Jackson's terms as president, he rewarded his loyal followers with government jobs so blatantly that the term "spoils system" was created to describe it. But things weren't so good for the Native Americans, which led to the "Trail of Tears." I believe this is again reflected in the recent reorganization of the first Presidency. :rolleyes:


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 Post subject: Re: Trump, Joseph Smith & "Fake News"
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:31 am 
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I think this is true of all of us to one extent or another when it comes to how we process information regarding people we either admire or hate. So when it comes to comparing the two I think we are looking at two polarizing figures at the extreme end of the hero versus a flim flam man spectrum. I understand that I am on the opposite side of the coin here for both men, in that I am probably predisposed to believe the bad about both of them.

What I find interesting though, is the many similarities between the two, especially in the area of how they treat women. In both cases we have quite a bit of evidence of bad behavior toward women that defenders are willing to go to any length to defend, reject outright or simply ignore. If this wasn't Trump or Joseph Smith, this behavior would not be tolerated. Compare, for example, how those that defend Trump feel about Bill Clinton and Lewenski or how those who defend Joseph Smith feel about Warren Jeffs polygamous actions.

So when LDS support for Trump in spite of overwhelming evidence of immoral behavior toward women, I can't help thinking; "well sure, that's exactly how they gloss over what Joseph Smith did too."

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 Post subject: Re: Trump, Joseph Smith & "Fake News"
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:48 am 
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Great insights. It shows how a tribal leader can encapsulate themselves from criticism. The cult of personality can scale up and down to a surprising degree. It happens in both religion and politics because both are systems of power seeking consensus and will use whatever social engineering tools are available to assure that.

Trump saw that the Republicans were ripe for a wave of their own identity politics and he was happy to surf that wave. Mormons are a stunning example of identity politics mixed with religion remaining intact in the midst of plurality. Trump wants something different, more comprehensive, transformational, whatever "making America great" means--the restoration of the early 20th century social order and norms, apparently.

The Mormons and the Trumpers will travel the same road for a while but they ultimately will diverge...somewhere. Trump has his own Great Commission and it's payable to him. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Trump, Joseph Smith & "Fake News"
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:16 am 
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Maksutov wrote:
Trump wants something different, more comprehensive, transformational, whatever "making America great" means--the restoration of the early 20th century social order and norms, apparently.

The Mormons and the Trumpers will travel the same road for a while but they ultimately will diverge...somewhere. Trump has his own Great Commission and it's payable to him. :wink:


Another great parallel between the two.

A "restoration" is what both men are using to draw in followers, Joseph Smith claimed to be restoring religion to a fictive past and Trump claims to be doing the same with "Merica First". In both cases, followers really don't know what exactly is being restored until the glorious leader tells them what they want. Both men are preying upon discontent with established order by depicting a promised land that never comes to fruition, is always just around the corner and requires just a bit more sacrifice on our part to get there.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump, Joseph Smith & "Fake News"
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:25 am 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
Trump wants something different, more comprehensive, transformational, whatever "making America great" means--the restoration of the early 20th century social order and norms, apparently.

The Mormons and the Trumpers will travel the same road for a while but they ultimately will diverge...somewhere. Trump has his own Great Commission and it's payable to him. :wink:


Another great parallel between the two.

A "restoration" is what both men are using to draw in followers, Joseph Smith claimed to be restoring religion to a fictive past and Trump claims to be doing the same with "Merica First". In both cases, followers really don't know what exactly is being restored until the glorious leader tells them what they want. Both men are preying upon discontent with established order by depicting a promised land that never comes to fruition, is always just around the corner and requires just a bit more sacrifice on our part to get there.


They're both playing on hoary old themes with emotional content and not much else. Look at the "New Jerusalem" nonsense prattled by American religious reformers. Like they really knew anything about the real Jerusalem. :lol: No, it was a fantasy city, like the "City on a Hill" trope, an utopian mirage to enable a cult leader or an authoritarian of other sorts to manipulate believers. But I'm a cynic on such things. You could also say that it's an inspired image with the power to motivate the faithful to express the divine will. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Trump, Joseph Smith & "Fake News"
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:13 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
So it occurred to me why so many LDS support the liar we have as a president. They have been conditioned by a culture which automatically rejects anything negative about Joseph Smith as "Fake News".

I wish every Mopologist could read that last sentence, Fence Sitter.

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You want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo? Just look at Trump.

That's a great insight; thank you!!

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 Post subject: Re: Trump, Joseph Smith & "Fake News"
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:17 pm 
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Now Trump wants a military parade.

I wonder if he will dress up like Joseph Smith.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Trump, Joseph Smith & "Fake News"
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:50 pm 
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You're definitely on to something. Behold Trump crushing the serpent's head beneath his heel.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump, Joseph Smith & "Fake News"
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:30 pm 
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I also think this is a great insight. I think things can get even more scary from here.

Once you've got the rhythm down calling "fake news" or "anti-mormonism" to anything challenging to your worldview, the need for compartmentalization wanes. One can, like some apologists, get so into the groove, that truth no longer holds any power. You can pick up any anti-Mormon book and laugh and show anti-Mormon videos at family home evening. In fact, like crushing a beer can against your forehead in front of your buddies, you can come to comprehend and agree with truths that are devastating to your faith, and deny them, like denying the sun at noon day. You can somewhat see how this logic works when bigots get together and intentionally make vapid arguments for a bigoted position that are obviously false, but that get laughs from the contingency, and the force of the argument becomes proportional to its stupidity.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump, Joseph Smith & "Fake News"
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:49 pm 
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Image

I could immediately see what McNaughton's painting was about.

Trump is demanding that the father scrape away the flower and then require the mother to wash away all traces of its existence, or Trump will cease restraining the poison asp and use Parseltongue to have it bite the daughter. All of this to make way for a military parade which will show the world that America is prepared to strike at those who anger Trump or mock the Brethren.

Mormon artists are full of complexity.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump, Joseph Smith & "Fake News"
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:48 am 
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Gadianton wrote:
I also think this is a great insight. I think things can get even more scary from here.

Once you've got the rhythm down calling "fake news" or "anti-mormonism" to anything challenging to your worldview, the need for compartmentalization wanes. One can, like some apologists, get so into the groove, that truth no longer holds any power. You can pick up any anti-Mormon book and laugh and show anti-Mormon videos at family home evening. In fact, like crushing a beer can against your forehead in front of your buddies, you can come to comprehend and agree with truths that are devastating to your faith, and deny them, like denying the sun at noon day. You can somewhat see how this logic works when bigots get together and intentionally make vapid arguments for a bigoted position that are obviously false, but that get laughs from the contingency, and the force of the argument becomes proportional to its stupidity.


Man, this kind of stuff keeps me up at night.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump, Joseph Smith & "Fake News"
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:43 am 
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cwald wrote:
Gadianton wrote:
I also think this is a great insight. I think things can get even more scary from here.

Once you've got the rhythm down calling "fake news" or "anti-mormonism" to anything challenging to your worldview, the need for compartmentalization wanes. One can, like some apologists, get so into the groove, that truth no longer holds any power. You can pick up any anti-Mormon book and laugh and show anti-Mormon videos at family home evening. In fact, like crushing a beer can against your forehead in front of your buddies, you can come to comprehend and agree with truths that are devastating to your faith, and deny them, like denying the sun at noon day. You can somewhat see how this logic works when bigots get together and intentionally make vapid arguments for a bigoted position that are obviously false, but that get laughs from the contingency, and the force of the argument becomes proportional to its stupidity.


Man, this kind of stuff keeps me up at night.


No kidding, right? The beautiful about life is that every day comes with the new and surprising, the terrifying is that sometimes the surprising is a glorious turdbomb parade.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump, Joseph Smith & "Fake News"
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:47 am 
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It is so hard to catch a narcissist in real life, too. Usually, if you do, it's because your unenviable their target. Until you know the extent at which a person doing evil can appear good, it's hard to believe it's possible, and easier to doubt witnesses.


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