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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:48 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Jesse Pinkman wrote:
I am intrigued by the high voting scores by folks who are knowledgeable about various religious studies.

Don Bradley and Philo both voted on the high side. I think this should be good confirmation to you that you’re on the right track.


The ONLY thing that could have been scraped and removed from the original lead carving would have been a jackal snout being faithfully copied from the papyrus and transposed into the lead plate by Hedlock himself. I think my theory about Joseph Smith coming along and having the snout removed is right on track with exactly what happened. I challenge anyone else to come up with a better theory once it's realized by all parties that a snout was original to the carving.

Both the critics and the apologists can tender their own theories but I think mine is spot on. All of this is terrible news for the church and the member apologists who defend it. It's bad news too for the leaders because its more evidence on the existing mountain of evidence that proves the Book of Abraham is a fraud. It will make it that much more difficult for them to bear testimony that they know the Book of Abraham is the word of God.

I have to think that it won't be too long and the Facsimiles will be removed from LDS canon.

What is really sad, is that if the Facsimiles are removed, it will likely be presented that they were never an official part of LDS canon to begin with.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:02 pm 
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Jesse Pinkman wrote:
What is really sad, is that if the Facsimiles are removed, it will likely be presented that they were never an official part of LDS canon to begin with.


The member apologists will attempt to present that but the actual leadership wouldn't dare. They will just remove it and let the chips fall where they will. At most they will contend that the story of the Book of Abraham is what really counts and the Facsimiles require further explanation which will be given in the own due time of the Lord.

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THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3

Includes a startling new discovery!

An original and authentic look at Facsimile No. 3 as never seen before.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:44 pm 
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Hey, Paul, I just noticed Nightlion’s quote in your signature! Really? I had no idea he felt that way.

That says a lot. Nightlion is probably one of the biggest Joseph Smith advocates here.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:44 pm 
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Weird things can happen, where apparently strong evidence falls apart. But when I look at the Facsimile 3 printing plate where Paul has pointed to the anomalous marks around the Olimlah figure's face, I don't have any real question that there was originally a snout and then this was chiseled away.

It's slightly less certain that this was removed under Joseph Smith's direction--that's harder to know. But it is difficult to imagine that someone would have presumed to change the printing plates, which were based on woodcuts done under Joseph Smith's direction, without Joseph's supervision. So I see a very high probability that Joseph directed that the snout be removed. And be that as it may, there is every appearance that there had been a snout.

This is not, for me a question of apologetics vs. criticism; it's a question of data. These data may have implications for apologetic-critical debates, but data are not in themselves inherently either apologetic or critical. We ought to be willing to let the chips of data fall where they may and then do our best to figure out what they mean.

I love what a substantive contribution Paul has made to Book of Abraham scholarship here, and I'll be fascinated to see how it changes the larger discussion.

Bravo! More! More!

Don


Last edited by DonBradley on Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:06 pm 
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DonBradley wrote:
Bravo! More! More!

Don

Thank you so much for your kind words and reasonable position in just wanting to know the truth whether it helps the apologists or the critics. It's the truth that matters! And yes, I agree, there is an obvious jackal snout impression etched in the lead work in front of so-called Olimlah's face whom Joseph Smith interpreted as being a slave rather than a god. Not only is the name "Olimlah" unEgyptian but the person depicted therein is most certainly NOT a slave. Joseph Smith got it wrong on all accounts.

I've demonstrated in other threads how Joseph Smith assumed responsibility for the Facsimile construction and publication. He supervised and approved all the work, he said so himself. Smith was the editor of the Times and Seasons and worked closely with members of his staff in getting the Book of Abraham to publication. The Facsimiles were his babies. He used Hedlock's craftsmanship to form the plates and engrave his interpretation of what he wanted on them from the papyri at hand. There is no question about that. I've never heard anyone say otherwise.

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Includes a startling new discovery!

An original and authentic look at Facsimile No. 3 as never seen before.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:37 pm 
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Paul,

Thanks for your reply.

You make a great case for Joseph Smith having overseen the removal of the snout on the printing plate, and I don't doubt that that's correct. The point I was trying to make is just that the removal of the snout and who decided to remove the snout are distinct--if highly inter-related--questions--i.e., Joseph Smith's supervision of the removal of the snout is an additional point above and beyond the fact that the snout was removed. But I see vanishingly little question that Joseph Smith ordered the removal of the snout.

You should publish on this. And when you do, you should lay out a full case both for the removal of the snout and for Joseph Smith's supervision of that process.

Don


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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:50 pm 
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Hey Paul if you do write such a paper might I suggest this as an epigraph for it?

Quote:
Ah no! young blade! That was a trifle short!
You might have said at least a hundred things
By varying the tone. . .like this, suppose,. . .
Aggressive: 'Sir, if I had such a nose I'd amputate it!'
Friendly: 'When you sup It must annoy you, dipping in your cup;
You need a drinking-bowl of special shape!'
Descriptive: ''Tis a rock!. . .a peak!. . .a cape! --
A cape, forsooth! 'Tis a peninsular!'
Curious: 'How serves that oblong capsular?
For scissor-sheath? Or pot to hold your ink?'
Gracious: 'You love the little birds, I think?
I see you've managed with a fond research
To find their tiny claws a roomy perch!'
Truculent: 'When you smoke your pipe. . .suppose
That the tobacco-smoke spouts from your nose--
Do not the neighbors, as the fumes rise higher,
Cry terror-struck: "The chimney is afire"?'
Considerate: 'Take care,. . .your head bowed low
By such a weight. . .lest head o'er heels you go!'
Tender: 'Pray get a small umbrella made,
Lest its bright color in the sun should fade!'
Pedantic: 'That beast Aristophanes Names Hippocamelelephantoles
Must have possessed just such a solid lump
Of flesh and bone, beneath his forehead's bump!'
Cavalier: 'The last fashion, friend, that hook?
To hang your hat on? 'Tis a useful crook!'
Emphatic: 'No wind, O majestic nose,
Can give THEE cold!--save when the mistral blows!'
Dramatic: 'When it bleeds, what a Red Sea!'
Admiring: 'Sign for a perfumery!'
Lyric: 'Is this a conch?. . .a Triton you?'
Simple: 'When is the monument on view?'
Rustic: 'That thing a nose? Marry-come-up!
'Tis a dwarf pumpkin, or a prize turnip!'
Military: 'Point against cavalry!'
Practical: 'Put it in a lottery!
Assuredly 'twould be the biggest prize!'
Or. . .parodying Pyramus' sighs. . .
'Behold the nose that mars the harmony
Of its master's phiz! blushing its treachery!'
--Such, my dear sir, is what you might have said,
Had you of wit or letters the least jot:
But, O most lamentable man!--of wit
You never had an atom, and of letters
You have three letters only!--they spell Ass!
And--had you had the necessary wit,
To serve me all the pleasantries I quote
Before this noble audience. . .e'en so,
You would not have been let to utter one--
Nay, not the half or quarter of such jest!
I take them from myself all in good part,
But not from any other man that breathes!


Excerpt from "Cyrano de Bergerac", the play by Edmond Rostand

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:29 pm 
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DonBradley wrote:
Paul,

Thanks for your reply.

You make a great case for Joseph Smith having overseen the removal of the snout on the printing plate, and I don't doubt that that's correct. The point I was trying to make is just that the removal of the snout and who decided to remove the snout are distinct--if highly inter-related--questions--i.e., Joseph Smith's supervision of the removal of the snout is an additional point above and beyond the fact that the snout was removed. But I see vanishingly little question that Joseph Smith ordered the removal of the snout.


When you think about it all Reuben Hedlock would have cared about is his craftsmanship and artistic ability in transforming what was on the papyrus into the lead plate of the "woodcut". That would have been his sole ambition as an artist. Every good artist wants to do a good job and remain faithful to what they are portraying. We could expect nothing less from Reuben Hedlock.

But Joseph Smith is another story. He took whatever he wanted into his own hands and wasn't afraid to represent things in whatever fashion he desired. Unlike Rueben, Smith had a vested interest in protecting his interpretation of the papyrus. Hedlock was just the artist. So, I have something further to add, that is pertinent to this specific point:

Had Smith been the actual craftsman he would have smoothed out the section where the snout was first cut to hide any impression that a snout was there in the first placed. Cover his tracks and make it look like a human head was all that was ever carved. If asked about why there was a jackal snout on the papyrus but not his carving he could have simply said that his rendition was an inspired interpretation of what was on the papyrus. For all we know he removed the vignette from public view and locked it up thinking his own Facsimile would ultimately supplant it. For all we know he may have punched a hole in the papyrus itself to hide the incriminating evidence that his so-called slave Olimlah had a jackal head which gave an impression of power and authority.

I have no doubt in my mind that Joseph Smith is responsible for the snout being removed. The impressions in the lead certainly show that a snout was original in the relief but was carved down to get rid of it. Had the surface been polished or smoothed over we would never have known the difference today. But Joseph Smith and his god did not know that Paul Osborne was going to examine the plate in high definition in the year 2017. I caught Joseph Smith red handed pulling a fast one and have demonstrated that his god does not know Egyptian, cannot read Egyptian, and cannot interpret Egyptian on any level. That is a proven fact.

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THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3

Includes a startling new discovery!

An original and authentic look at Facsimile No. 3 as never seen before.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:09 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
My only comments about the voting outcome thus far is that I'm disappointed that more people haven't voted.

:mad:

10

Quote:
What do I have to do? Get a stick out and start poking people? Jesus.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:29 pm 
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THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3

Includes a startling new discovery!

An original and authentic look at Facsimile No. 3 as never seen before.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:49 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
10 Shulem
8-9 Fence Sitter
8-9 Themis
8.9 deacon blues
8-9 Philo Sofee
8-9 Sanctorian
3 abinadi_fire
9 Symmachus
3 The Dude
10 Jesse Pinkman
10 DonBradley
8-9 tana
10 Jersey Girl
10+ Doctor CamNC4Me
10 Tator
5 Res Ipsa
10 cwald

i realized i posted on the thread my opinion but didn't actually give a number.

To the question: Based on what you see in the enlarged woodcut plate, do you sense that there was a jackal nose originally carved and afterward removed?

If it can be based also on the likelihood of events leading up to the woodcut plate, and not just on the visual (because I'm not an expert at carving) then please add my number:

8.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:04 pm 
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Shulem,

My vote is a solid 9.5.

And I agree with Don Bradley. You should publish your findings asap.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:13 pm 
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Quick question, Shulem.

Were any of the other characters from Fac. 3 altered in a way that fundamentally altered their meaning if taken in context of a funerary text? What about the other facsimiles? If not, then it stands to reason Anubis was altered into Olimlah to fit Joseph Smith's narrative.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:50 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Quick question, Shulem.

Were any of the other characters from Fac. 3 altered in a way that fundamentally altered their meaning if taken in context of a funerary text? What about the other facsimiles? If not, then it stands to reason Anubis was altered into Olimlah to fit Joseph Smith's narrative.


Alterations to Facsimile No. 3 aren't a big issue other than the jackal snout. But alterations to Facsimile No. 2 (Hypocephalus) are blatant and literally off the scale. Joseph Smith's attempts to fill in the lucuna (empty sections) prove conclusively he didn't know what he was doing. He took material from papyri at hand and simply filled in the blanks however he pleased. His restoration of the missing sections of Facsimile No. 2 are unprofessional cartoon acts more suited for Bugs Bunny and the Road Runner.

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10 DonBradley
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10 Jersey Girl
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10 Tator
5 Res Ipsa
10 cwald
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9.5 Everybody Wang Chung

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THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3

Includes a startling new discovery!

An original and authentic look at Facsimile No. 3 as never seen before.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:34 pm 
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Shulem,

My vote is a solid 9.5.

And I agree with Don Bradley. You should publish your findings asap.

I also agree!!

Paul, if you need help from a publishing standpoint, please PM me. I would love to help you any way I can.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:02 pm 
God
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JP,

DCP has mentioned Shulem's research a couple of times.

What does he think about Shulem's findings? Will there be a response from the Interpreter?

I know Gee has looked at Shulem's research, but as of yet, has been completly silent.

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:36 pm 
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
JP,

DCP has mentioned Shulem's research a couple of times.

What does he think about Shulem's findings? Will there be a response from the Interpreter?

I know Gee has looked at Shulem's research, but as of yet, has been completly silent.

Thanks


Both Peterson and Gee are more than welcome to express their current opinion on whether they think/feel there was an original jackal snout removed subsequent to the grand presentation showcased in the Times and Seasons.

It's simple and easy: 1-10. Perhaps DCP would like another scale seeing he's a school teacher and has lots of practice grading papers, so let him grade me. I get an A if he thinks there was a snout and an F if the snout is just my imagination.

What say ye, DCP, will you please grade my paper?

:wink:

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THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3

Includes a startling new discovery!

An original and authentic look at Facsimile No. 3 as never seen before.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:07 pm 
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I'd give it a 9.5, only because it's a little hard to believe that Joseph didn't just tell the woodcutter to leave the snout off in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:47 pm 
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***IMPORTANT OBSERVATION OF THE LEADCUT PLATE***

Observe the horizontal lines that are distinctively etched into the upper body of black Anubis:

ANUBIS, FIRST PERSON ON THE LEFT

I believe these lines or grooves were caused by a tool used to trowel or smooth the common surface of the original plate. If you hold a straight edge along the horizontal lines you'll notice that they extend over into the character of Maat wherein the groves can be clearly traced in the outline of her arm. They even seem to extend (although faintly) all the way to the outline that forms Osiris sitting upon his throne. But there is no question that the groves running horizontally through Anubis's upper body are the same groves that run through Maat, two persons to the right.

I believe the leadcut plate was originally flat throughout the entire surface before any carving or etching was performed. The engraver must have used some kind of trowel to smooth the entire surface to help even the form. The tool is what caused the grooves when he ran it across the surface of the plate. At this point I can't tell whether the tool was run horizontal or vertical when the groves were formed. It could be argued either way but I don't know the consistency of the lead or its composition when the trowel like spatula was swiped. More shall be revealed, that's for sure.

So, why is all this important? It indicates that the original entire surface was smoothed down and was a square surface prior to the engraving tools making their first cuts or impressions to carve out material. If a SNOUT was originally engraved on a jackal head there would have been foot print like impressions around it after having removed the snout. The original snout had its own borders carved in metal and those impressions would have survived unless the engraver took special care to smooth the entire surface to hide any remnants of the original. But I don't think Reuben Hedlock cared too much about hiding it. All he cared about was removing the snout as ordered by Joseph Smith and the raised relief would print the final outcome.

Comments?

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8-9 Fence Sitter
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8.9 deacon blues
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9.5 Everybody Wang Chung
9.5 Dr. Shades

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THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3

Includes a startling new discovery!

An original and authentic look at Facsimile No. 3 as never seen before.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:57 pm 
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Jesse Pinkman,

DCP has mentioned Shulem's research a couple of times.

What does he think about Shulem's findings? Will there be a response from the Interpreter?

I know Gee has looked at Shulem's research, but as of yet, has been completly silent.

Thanks

I was not aware that Dan had mentioned Paul's research. Do you have a link? I don't know what was said. I have never discussed this with him.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:19 pm 
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Shulem,

You knocked it out of the park here. PLEASE publish this. Even a short piece in a historical journal would be great. I give you a TEN. And Anubis always wore a headdress, so that is the reason for the strange shape of the head. Notice part of it can be seen in the penciled in lines on the shoulder that were not used. They are useless, except for something that was there, but that they did not need after it was changed. I'm all for having a bit of fun, but this is very serious and important discovery and your website should reflect that more IMO.

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