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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:23 am 
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Mikwut -

Trump keeps enthusiastically retweeting Katie Hopkins. He does so on racial issues. He did so just yesterday, which has drawn in some national media attention:

https://www.newsweek.com/who-katie-hopk ... mp-1453506
https://www.businessinsider.com/who-is- ... hes-2019-7

Katie Hopkins is a reoccurring fox news guest / white supremacist who, among other things, has called for a "final solution" for Muslims. She's compared migrants to cockroaches in a piece calling for the use of gunships to stop them. And that's the tip of the iceberg. She's essentially an Ann Coulter of Britain.

This is not just using the same words as her. Trump has specifically praised her and amplified her views on multiple occasions.


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:20 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
Mikwut -

Trump keeps enthusiastically retweeting Katie Hopkins. He does so on racial issues. He did so just yesterday, which has drawn in some national media attention:

https://www.newsweek.com/who-katie-hopk ... mp-1453506
https://www.businessinsider.com/who-is- ... hes-2019-7

Katie Hopkins is a reoccurring fox news guest / white supremacist who, among other things, has called for a "final solution" for Muslims. She's compared migrants to cockroaches in a piece calling for the use of gunships to stop them. And that's the tip of the iceberg. She's essentially an Ann Coulter of Britain.

This is not just using the same words as her. Trump has specifically praised her and amplified her views on multiple occasions.


mikwut - regarding EAllusion's comment above - can you tell me how ideas and actions take root and proliferate?


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:30 am 
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This thread reminds me of the old days, talking to mopologists. They too loved to accuse everyone who disagreed with them of not wanting "substantive" conversations.

It's pretty ____ funny, when you think about it. It's an adolescent ploy. I can't argue with reality, so I'll pretend it's beneath me.

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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:51 am 
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It was recently uncovered that the state department currently has in its employ a leader in Washington D.C.'s white nationalist community. SPLC was responsible for uncovering it:

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/201 ... determines

He posts on a white nationalist forum called "the right stuff" under the name Coach Finstock. This article from SPLC then goes into painstaking detail documenting his white nationalist connections and beliefs, which are as abhorrent as abhorrent gets.

The list is extensive and I encourage anyone interested in reading the full article. The specific item that is getting the most play in coverage of this is when he went on a white nationalist podcast and discussed his desire for a white ethnostate armed with nuclear weapons to make the world tremble. Because who doesn't react to "what if the Nazis had nukes?" counterfactual history with, "It would've been awesome!" For me, it's where he discusses the common white nationalist theme that they need to infiltrate the police and military that is most chilling. But with dozens of examples to pick from, perhaps you can find your favorite.

This isn't the first time that overt white nationalists exposing the most hateful, dangerous beliefs that exist have been uncovered in the Trump admin. What's interesting here is the Trump admin is reacting to the story by doing nothing beyond confirming it is legitimate. Presumably, he will be forced out at some point, but their approach to dealing with the story as it lingers out there is quite something. It's pretty easy to immediately cut your losses on this one.


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:56 am 
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Hi E -

Let me be clear on my stance. Over the last decade in particular tremendous changes have and continue to take place in our country. The Democratic Party is as we speak redefining itself. I can remember like yesterday looking up immigration positions on congressmen and women and presidential candidates in the last couple elections. The positions democrats are taking aren't even close to what they were just a few years ago. For example, Elizabeth Warren, who I really like outside of a couple things I'm struggling with with her (honesty) voted yes for 700 miles of border wall in 2013. Trump's wall is more extensive in proposal but how is his racist and hers not? And why can't I just get the pitch for what is the best solution outside of racism? Now she is seemingly advocating for open borders if repealing 1325 establishes that and there seems to be a moral veneer to it that I have missed a revolution or something if I don't just just get that like murder is wrong. That is just one example on an issue. I am for the best position on border security which I consider a real issue. I was asked previous by I think perfume what I would be saying if the border crisis existed to the north. I meant to respond to that. It would make no difference. Too much change (and populace in some areas) into a culture from another can be harmful to the incoming country. Having roads to citizenship is very important. Having the economy of the matter settled and reducing harm to our own citizens is good legislation. I don't think (I could be wrong) there is a base of white supremacists that would appeal to either parties hopes of winning in 2020. I believe that language is used in opposition of finding some kind of compromise to many issues easily and lends itself to being tainted as racist or what a white supremacist would say. I think taking advantage of that that overlap is harmful to our country. It is also harmful to getting a democratic president elected in 2020 because it will appear as just a smear tactic to Trumps base and turn them off and it will do the same to independents like me that each party really needs. I watched Kevin's Tucker side by side video and don't agree with some things but that isn't proof of white supremacism. I disagree with Tucker that white supremacism is a hoax, it is a real problem but it doesn't make my top 10 and that doesn't make me a racist.

Katie Hopkins is a provocateur kind of like Milo. They walk the razor thin edge of right wing rhetoric. She is a raise yourself up by your bootstraps ideology on steroids. She attacks what she perceives as victimhood whether it be I'm gay I'm a victim, I'm trans I'm a victim, I'm a certain ethnic race I'm a victim., I'm fat I'm a victim. Doesn't appeal to me but doesn't make her a racist either. And why bother labeling her as one when she opens herself up for criticism that wouldn't even be controversial like just being a mean nasty ____.

mikwut

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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:30 am 
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mikwut wrote:
Katie Hopkins is a provocateur kind of like Milo. They walk the razor thin edge of right wing rhetoric. She is a raise yourself up by your bootstraps ideology on steroids. She attacks what she perceives as victimhood whether it be I'm gay I'm a victim, I'm trans I'm a victim, I'm a certain ethnic race I'm a victim., I'm fat I'm a victim. Doesn't appeal to me but doesn't make her a racist either. And why bother labeling her as one when she opens herself up for criticism that wouldn't even be controversial like just being a mean nasty ____.

mikwut

If Katie Hopkins, a person who has a lengthy trail of overt racist statements, including racial slurs, racial stereotyping, support of racist policies and organizations, and ironic but not ironic calls for literal violence against racial minorities, doesn't count as racist because "she's just trolling" then I'm not sure anyone can or should qualify as a racist in your view. You've set the bar so high, no one can meet it.

This doesn't solve the underlying problem here, though. Suppose we have to invent a new term to describe what Katie Hopkins is. Let's call it schmacist. If someone is schmacist, that's also really bad, and it's exceptionally bad if our President is a schmacist who gives aid and comfort to schmacists thus bolstering their influence and power. President schmacist is bad.


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:41 am 
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*Needlessly removes young children from their parents and throws them in concentration camps to deter asylum seeking while comparing them to invaders and an infestation*

Seems bad.

Mikwut - What's the difference between this and when Elizabeth Warren voted for border fencing in the immigration reform compromise package of 2013? Are you saying she's racist too?


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:08 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
Mikwut -

Trump keeps enthusiastically retweeting Katie Hopkins. .


Yeah but that's just words and phrases.


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:22 pm 
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mikwut wrote:
For example, Elizabeth Warren, who I really like outside of a couple things I'm struggling with with her (honesty) voted yes for 700 miles of border wall in 2013. Trump's wall is more extensive in proposal but how is his racist and hers not?


Speaking of honesty, why are you calling it a border wall when it was just a fence? Are you dishonest or just not smart enough to know the difference?

Trump's wall promised to be big and beautiful and cover the entire border on a campaign trail that built its entire premise on getting Americans to hate and fear Mexicans.


Last edited by Kevin Graham on Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:43 pm 
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Mikwut, what do you think Elizabeth Warren has been dishonest about? Or is it that you dislike her being honest about things that make you uneasy? It is for certain that Trump and the current Republican leadership are greatly discomfited by and hate her for her honesty!

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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:09 pm 
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mikwut wrote:
I was asked previous by I think perfume what I would be saying if the border crisis existed to the north. I meant to respond to that. It would make no difference. Too much change (and populace in some areas) into a culture from another can be harmful to the incoming country.

You may be referring to a comment that I made a few days back when I asked how Trump’s rhetoric would sound about such an event. I’d bet that he would refer to it in gentler, more favorable terms, as about how great the US is that everyone wants to be here ... as opposed to calling those Canadians an invasion, or horde of rapists and criminals, or drug smugglers.

The question to you would be why that difference would exist.

And still you won’t answer the straightforward question of whether or not you believe that Trump’s rhetoric is capable of stoking racial tension and sentiment amongst his Base.


Last edited by canpakes on Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:13 pm 
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Gunnar wrote:
Mikwut, what do you think Elizabeth Warren has been dishonest about? Or is it that you dislike her being honest about things that make you uneasy? It is for certain that Trump and the current Republican leadership are greatly discomfited by and hate her for her honesty!

It’s interesting that the fellow she would run against isn’t characterized by mikwut as ‘dishonest’ right at the outset. There could not be a better example of a dishonest politician than a man who has to lie about virtually every little thing, and has done so since the first hours after being sworn in.


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:58 pm 
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Hi Gunnar,

Quote:
Mikwut, what do you think Elizabeth Warren has been dishonest about? Or is it that you dislike her being honest about things that make you uneasy? It is for certain that Trump and the current Republican leadership are greatly discomfited by and hate her for her honesty!


I have stated several times I did not vote for Trump and I am not voting for Trump in 2020. I have simply stated he is not a white supremacist. So why are you impliedly demanding I defend Trump when I criticize Elizabeth Warren? I stated I like her but have a few problems, honesty being one of them. I don't need to juxtapose that criticism to a president I didn't vote for and am not voting for. I can just make the criticism. She has apologized for her tribal affiliation confusion she created and I take that into account. We each need to decide for ourselves what her motive was for this. I am troubled by it, but like I said I like her policies.

mikwut

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"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:59 pm 
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canpakes,

Quote:
It’s interesting that the fellow she would run against isn’t characterized by mikwut as ‘dishonest’ right at the outset. There could not be a better example of a dishonest politician than a man who has to lie about virtually every little thing, and has done so since the first hours after being sworn in.


See my response to gunnar.

mikwut

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"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:01 pm 
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Seems relevant to this thread:

https://washingtonmonthly.com/2019/08/0 ... nt-theory/


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:06 pm 
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Kevin,

Quote:
Speaking of honesty, why are you calling it a border wall when it was just a fence? Are you dishonest or just not smart enough to know the difference?

Trump's wall promised to be big and beautiful and cover the entire border on a campaign trail that built its entire premise on getting Americans to hate and fear Mexicans.


My point was what makes one racist and the other not-racist not whether one is thicker or higher.

mikwut

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All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:09 pm 
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Ajax18, a hardcore white supremacist who posts on this very message board, is quite fond of arguing that any opposition to his preferred border enforcement policies constitutes wanting "open borders." Oppose Trump's child detention policy? Why, that means you want open borders. Oppose a boondoogle of a border wall? You must want open borders.

He knows this is dishonest, but he persists. It's one of his favorite rhetorical moves. If Trump ever got the military to start opening fire on migrants as he repeatedly implies he wants, Ajax18 would be there to argue any criticism of it is "wanting open borders."

The natural reply to this is that opposition to the most draconian border enforcement is not equivalent to wanting open borders. There's a whole range of policy positions a person might take that do not entail open borders that rejects Trump's approaches as inhumane and/or inefficient. I don't think any person on this board wants open borders. I'm probably the single most liberal person on immigration on the board, and I don't want open borders.

I see Mikwut's posting here is a somewhat dressed up version of a similar argument. Donald Trump and people surrounding him engage in xenophobic rhetoric drenched in white supremacist themes to support fanatical, cruel approaches to border enforcement. If you call it bigoted, Mikwut looks at that, and with a little help from continuum fallacy, rhetorically asks if some other politician having border enforcement ideas at all must also be bigoted. No, Mikwut, that does not follow.


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:09 am 
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mikwut wrote:
Hi Gunnar,

Quote:
Mikwut, what do you think Elizabeth Warren has been dishonest about? Or is it that you dislike her being honest about things that make you uneasy? It is for certain that Trump and the current Republican leadership are greatly discomfited by and hate her for her honesty!


I have stated several times I did not vote for Trump and I am not voting for Trump in 2020. I have simply stated he is not a white supremacist. So why are you impliedly demanding I defend Trump when I criticize Elizabeth Warren? I stated I like her but have a few problems, honesty being one of them. I don't need to juxtapose that criticism to a president I didn't vote for and am not voting for. I can just make the criticism. She has apologized for her tribal affiliation confusion she created and I take that into account. We each need to decide for ourselves what her motive was for this. I am troubled by it, but like I said I like her policies.

mikwut

I am encouraged by the fact that you like her policies, but I don't think it is entirely fair to her to accuse her of dishonesty concerning her tribal affiliation confusion. You should read her book, A fighting Chance. In this autobiographical book she talks about how her mother thought, probably honestly but mistakenly, that she had a significant amount of Native American ancestry. She took her mother's word for that, but she never used claims of tribal affiliation to gain any favorable consideration in applications for employment or academic institutions. All institutions with which Warren was associated confirmed that their acceptance of her was entirely based on her academic merit and achievements. When she submitted her DNA samples for analysis and found that the percentage of Native American ancestry was far less than she had been led to believe, she apologized for any confusion she might have created, but I really don't feel that apology was necessary. That she apologized anyway was admirable of her, and I am glad to find that you seem to agree with that.

I didn't mean to imply that you in any way defended Trump by criticizing Elizabeth Warren, only that your criticism of her for dishonesty was unfair, and probably misinformed by disinformation about her coming from her opponents. I can't imagine that you have any illusions about Trump being an honest person, but I still think you are incredibly naïve to deny that he is a white supremacist!

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“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:27 am 
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There's a false idea in right wing discourse that Warren lied about her Native American heritage in order to benefit from Affirmative Action to get academic posts she otherwise could not hack. If Warren wins the Democratic nomination, we're gonna be subjected to that relentlessly. And thanks to false balance in the media, it'll be treated as a major controversy.

The more accurate version is that Warren believed she had Native American heritage due to a family legend. If you are from the right parts of the country and of the right age, which Warren is, this is super common. Everyone has a "Cherokee princess" in their family line. Warren got into this idea and began claiming she was part Native American, which was then picked up by where she worked to boast of their diversity hires.

When this became controversial, Warren tried to defend herself by providing evidence that no, she really has Native American heritage. This is offensive to tribal groups because being Native American for them isn't about having the right admixture of DNA. It's about being raised in and participating in tribal culture. Warren doesn't have that, and her defenses just completely neglected what Native Americans themselves believe about what constitutes being Native American. She has no real tribal affiliation. This is bad, but it's also so stereotypical of someone her age from the part of the country she is from. She's since apologized for this and as far as controversies go, it's well beneath what occurs in the Trump admin on a literal weekly basis.

If Warren wins the nomination, what's probably going to happen is that leftwing critics who understand the second issue are going to be used to prove that there is validity to the first one.

She wasn't dishonest. She was clueless. It has basically no bearing on what she'd be like as a President and reads to me as a distraction.


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:33 am 
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I have a friend who is all concerned about Warren's Native American claims. He was also very concerned with Clinton's emails.

Trump's daily ____ and chaos? He doesn't understand why people can't say anything nice about him.

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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:30 am 
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Perfume on my Mind wrote:
I have a friend who is all concerned about Warren's Native American claims. He was also very concerned with Clinton's emails.

Trump's daily ____ and chaos? He doesn't understand why people can't say anything nice about him.

Every single day the Trump admin is engaging in out in the open corruption that makes the Harding administration look quaint. There's just too much scandal saturation, right-wing disinformation, and news fatigue for people to properly focus on it.

Knowing this, there are still people who think, "Yeah, but Warren said she was a Native American!" as a serious retort. I can't fathom how broken a person's sense of proportion has to be to think that compares.

Here's the thing. Suppose Warren wins the nomination. Suppose further that during the campaign and internal memo from Havard leaks that shows that Warren's supposed Native American status played a role in a salary increase she received. That's plausible. I guarantee you it would be a huge story with above the fold coverage in every major newspaper and endless pundit commentary on all major news networks. That's how false balance works in the media.

It would make you feel like you're going insane because that's not that big of a deal in the big scheme of things and the President is a corrupt, cruel, pathological liar whittling away at the basic norms of democracy.


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