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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:51 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
canpakes wrote:
You can always tell which parts of his public statements he has been forced to read by some adult in the room, based on his delivery.

so you are ok if someone is just a better liar and has a more pleasing delivery (looks good, smells good...must therefore be good) - got it!

Nah, you just suffer from reading comprehension issues. : )


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:28 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
canpakes wrote:
You can always tell which parts of his public statements he has been forced to read by some adult in the room, based on his delivery.

so you are ok if someone is just a better liar and has a more pleasing delivery (looks good, smells good...must therefore be good) - got it!

canpakes wrote:
Nah, you just suffer from reading comprehension issues. : )

I think it is notable that subby did not even try to dispute that Trump himself is a liar.

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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:48 pm 
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mikwut wrote:
An article from Huffpost that is saying exactly what I was arguing about Elizabeth Warren.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/elizabet ... cbd48a1b01

mikwut

mikwut -

If your parents and grandparents told you during all of your young and formative years that you had a Cherokee ancestor, would you have (1) believed them, or (2) possibly repeated it to anyone else? Is it reasonable behavior to have done so?

At what point can it be responsibly claimed by someone else that you might be ‘lying’ about it?

How would you rectify that situation with certainty? How could you have proven or disproven the claim?


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:12 pm 
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canpakes wrote:
mikwut -

If your parents and grandparents told you during all of your young and formative years that you had a Cherokee ancestor, would you have (1) believed them, or (2) possibly repeated it to anyone else? Is it reasonable behavior to have done so?


I would have believed them and shared the information with others. I would have shared it with friends and I would have passed it on to my own children.

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At what point can it be responsibly claimed by someone else that you might be ‘lying’ about it?


It can only be claimed as a lie when one has discovered truth and continues to repeat untruth.

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How would you rectify that situation with certainty? How could you have proven or disproven the claim?


If I am not mistaken (and I could be) Warren did do a DNA kit with specific results that included a tiny percentage of NA blood ties. Right?

So in my own family history, stories were passed down to me as well, and on to my own children. As it turned out through my genealogical research, all the stories turned out to be true. All of them. :-)

I discovered more details and answered quite a few pending questions. I also discovered a family member that I never heard about. He was my GGM's first child, born out of wedlock in a poor house in Glasgow. I discovered why he might have been born in a poor house and discovered other details about him.

When I came upon this information, my family story was adjusted to accommodate his part of the story and was shared with every other living family member that I have.

That's what you do with the information. Who discovered the additional details about Warren's family? If she knows about this as surely she must, has she denied them?

If she's ignored them, maybe what looks like ignoring to us is really Warren processing the fact that her family story is significantly different than she thought it was. And, she is doing this under a magnifying glass with a schedule that must be heavier than any of us here could have.

Don't we all deserve time to process new information and adjust?

I think she needs time to mull it around. She can't tell us what she thinks about it until she knows for herself what she thinks.

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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:13 pm 
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Hi Doc,

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Ok. Let's say she fibbed about being a Cherokee. Compare and contrast that against Trump and where do you stand on her candidacy?

- Doc


Thanks for asking. I have been baffled by the other posters assuming I am defending Trump by offering a criticism of Elizabeth Warren. It is maddening. All I did was defend the what I consider ridiculous notion that Trump is a white supremacist. Be that as it may I tangentially brought up Elizabeth Warren as being alluring to me due to her ideas she is offering but this ancestry issue did concern me. It still does.

I have said I didn't vote for Trump and I am not voting for Trump so I just don't understand why the issue I make of Elizabeth Warren has to be contrasted with Trump. Shouldn't every candidate be looked at with a critical eye? That is all I am doing.

Concerning Trump, I don't believe he is a white supremacist. I do believe he is divisive, obviously and we are already divided as a country so it is not the healthiest situation. I blame the media a great deal and hyper rhetoric. It is unfortunate.

mikwut

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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:23 pm 
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Jersey Girl, canpakes and Gunnar,

If any of you read my post stating my position about Elizabeth Warren you would respond to it and not just keep repeating talking points about the ancestry nonsense. Just as the article stated that I linked above, we are talking about a United States Senator, a previous Harvard Law School professor here. Not just some kid whose parents told her some family Indian blood stories. As I mentioned from my own experience practicing law, there is no way Elizabeth Warren did not understand that ancestry for tribes is not based on DNA testing, it primarily is based on tribal affiliation and living. There is very accessible ways to find out if you have true tribal relations of which you could affiliate. As I stated lawyers necessarily and ethically have to learn from clients if they have tribal affiliation in order to properly represent them. My classes in law school, which was not Harvard, included this fundamental information. Am I to believe a professor from Harvard is somehow remiss of this? This is what makes her DNA test so serious for me. She still went through with that after knowing the distinction. None of you have answered that. Do I just throw my actual life experience out the window here?

mikwut

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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:41 pm 
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mikwut wrote:
there is no way Elizabeth Warren did not understand that ancestry for tribes is not based on DNA testing, it primarily is based on tribal affiliation and living. There is very accessible ways to find out if you have true tribal relations of which you could affiliate.

Warren did not claim tribal affiliation as commonly defined by Native Americans who actively choose to affiliate. She claimed an ancestor who was believed to identify as Cherokee.

Whether or not Warren chooses to affiliate with a tribe in that legal sense does not deny the possible existence of an ancestor who was, by every contemporary or dated definition, Cherokee, nor denies support for the plain reality of Warren's 'family relative' claim.

You keep wanting to (a) build a particular box around her that she did not build, then (b) chastise her for your placement of her within your box, as if it were her doing.

Anyhow, I have some questions for you in my previous post that I'm curious how you'd respond to. ; )


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:46 pm 
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mik I only responded to the article that you posted that you said expressed similar to your concerns.

I haven't spent much time reading your comments on Warren, except that I did read where you covered the requirements of her law degree. I don't recall if that was on this thread.

I like Warren's decisiveness. I like that she has "a plan for that." I like that she typically delivers something more concrete than the usual candidate. And I like her enthusiasm.

mik if she played shell games with the truth then tell me why you think she did that.

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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:57 pm 
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Jersey,

Why do I have to gleen into someones motive and mind when I have enough proof to know she did do what I have argued? I don't know her exact why. I do know she played fast and loose with the truth that is silly to think she didn't understand what she apologized for until that late in the process.

mikwut

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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:02 am 
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canpakes,

Tribal affiliation is what is required to claim you are Indian, that's according to the very tribes we are discussing. She claimed and was presented as the first Harvard law professor of color because of her incorrect designation of heritage. I have already argued she of all people knew this distinction. She is not an Indian (person of color) by either measure.

mikwut

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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:09 am 
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mikwut wrote:
canpakes,

Tribal affiliation is what is required to claim you are Indian, that's according to the very tribes we are discussing. She claimed and was presented as the first Harvard law professor of color because of her incorrect designation of heritage. I have already argued she of all people knew this distinction. She is not an Indian (person of color) by either measure.

mikwut

And she does not claim this now, nor did she claim in the past that this was the entirety of her ethnic makeup.

How about those questions I had for you a few posts back?


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:47 am 
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It is not at all obvious to me that Trump is not a racist or White Supremacist. I can think of nothing less obvious than that. Quite the contrary! It is incomprehensible to me how any fully rational, informed person can fail to realize his racism. Whether he actually is or not, he certainly has no objection to racists and white supremacists concluding that he is one of them, based on his rhetoric, and feeling empowered and encouraged by that. He has a history of racial discrimination in his housing units, for example, and having to pay heavy damages and fines because of it. Mikwut at least agrees that Trump is very divisive. I don't think one can reasonably deny that his rhetoric resonates heavily with the most racist among his base supporters, whether that was Trump's deliberate intention or not.

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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:43 am 
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mikwut wrote:
canpakes,

Tribal affiliation is what is required to claim you are Indian,


No it's not. In fact, nothing thing is required to claim you are Indian aside from your ability to make an assertion. It's required in a specific legal sense that you are assuming Warren claimed, even though there is no evidence she did. Warren was claiming (partial) Native American status and identifying as such based on ancestry (derived from family lore) because vast swathes of America believe that genetic descent is one in the same with claiming you are part of some ethnic subgroup.

Right this very minute, people are getting back their 23andme results, finding out they are x% Irish, and going on to claim they are Irish despite no actual lived ties to Ireland or Irish culture. Some of them are going to go on to do performative Irish things like get super into St. Patrick's day because they are now "Irish." This is ordinary of Americans. As it turns out, they also do this with respect Native Americans. This is a shame, because there are really good reasons to think that people shouldn't claim to be Native American unless they have real tribal affiliation.

For what it is worth, when I've heard Native Americans I know talk the genetic testing craze leading people to discover and claim they are a particular ethnicity, it drives them nuts because they think it is going to lead to more people claiming to be Native American when they're not in the sense they care about. They think this common American idea of ethnic belonging is pernicious and that genetic testing companies are feeding into it.

It's not surprising that Warren behaved the way she did here. Having an understanding of legal recognition of tribal affiliation doesn't preclude one from also believing that genetic descent justifies a claim of ethnic belonging. You'd hope Warren would know better, but it appears she didn't at the time. Your insistence that she did and engaged in a campaign of deception for a motive that doesn't even make sense in its historical context is just not a good argument.

Quote:
I have been baffled by the other posters assuming I am defending Trump by offering a criticism of Elizabeth Warren. It is maddening.
You are the one who has invited the comparison when you engage in a false equivalence between Donald Trump's vicious racism and Elizabeth Warren's historical insensitivity to Native Americans. Acknowledging one is worse than the other is meaningless when you also declare that one must believe both are terrible examples of racism that create serious consequences for how we view them or neither do. You are the one who collapsed very serious distinctions between the two that mediate what we should call and how we should deal with them.


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:48 am 
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On a separate note, federal agencies have been sending employees articles from white supremacist (and other far right) websites since Trump was elected:

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ha ... poch-times


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:15 am 
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This may or may not be the right thread for this, but here you go:

Politico has an article up on a alt-right book/manifesto that has captured the imagination of some people surrounding the Trump administration:

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/ ... mp-1472413

I find the way this is written to be quite frustrating. The tone is obviously negative, but it also manages to portray the phenomenon as quirky extremism rather than just point-blank describing what they are reporting on.

They describe the book in terms that are identical to the primary elements of Nazism. That's not an exaggeration. "Nietzschean philosophy with critiques of contemporary Western society, denigrating homosexuality, Judaism, Islam, feminism," fixating on "population genetics," and an "affinity for Slavic and northern European cultures" while imploring those of like-mind to "join the armed forces in preparation for the onset of military rule" are its core components. Aside from liking Slavs, that's literally what Nazism is. It's not even generic fascism. That's basically Nazism. If you understand what Nazism is beyond the level of swastikas and roman salutes, you probably should be able to pick up on this.

Yet, somehow, this article never manages to draw that connection explicitly. Instead, it compares Trump officials liking this modern version of Mein Kampf to early 2000's liberals liking the West Wing. The words are there for the reader to draw the connections themselves, but they buried the lede 6 feet deep. Instead, we get a, "look at what those jokers are up to. lol" tone that is inappropriate for the news they are reporting.


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:15 am 
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From the article -

Much like the Trump phenomenon itself, it can be difficult to tell where to place “Bronze Age Mindset” along the spectrum between elaborate joke and deadly serious. Reached via direct message on Twitter, Bronze Age Pervert, declined to discuss his real-world identity. In a rambling note, he said he was influenced by a book about homosexuality in the Nazi army and claimed, “I’m largely responsible for the Trump administration's push for universal worldwide sodomy promotion,” an apparent reference to the administration’s campaign to abolish laws that criminalize homosexuality. (This appears to be a joke. A source close to the White House who is familiar with the initiative scoffed at the claim.)

Satirical nonsense aside, events such as recent mass shootings inspired by far right ideas, as well as acts of violence by believers in the fantastical QAnon conspiracy theory, underscore the gravity of this corner of internet culture.

“There’s a whole generation of younger guys who are reading this and buying into this, but there aren’t a lot of paths to channel that constructively,” said one organizer on the Trumpist right, who declined to be named in an article that contained the term “alt-right.”

“Insofar as people are worried about radicalization on the right towards violence, one of the things I worry about is this generation of younger guys are going to conclude there’s no space for them or their voice in the political process, and the only way they can express themselves is in these ugly, corrosive ways,” the organizer said. “In my opinion, the way to help these people is not to turn them 180 degrees, but to turn them 15 degrees.”

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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:26 am 
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OG Nazis themselves loved to play around in the grey area of “are they joking or serious?” The number of articles on Hitler from the American press in the 1930’s that suggest he’s doing what in modern terms we’d call trolling feels limitless. It’s not a modern alt-right or Trump specific phenomenon. Exploiting ironic ambiguity is a red flag feature of fascist movements.

The part you quoted Honor is an example of my frustration. It’s not hard at all to point out that “Maybe he’s joking about all this Nazi stuff” is a thing Nazis do. The words are there to make the connection, but there’s no effort to educate the reader in the context.


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:37 am 
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I took it more as an honest question of whether it's best to try and oppose/flip people suseptable to the message or redirect their view to something consistent with a traditional viable political position but not a reconversion as if it's a cult. I think how a person answers that comes down to how seriously a person takes the possibility there are reasonable alternatives outside of ones own views. If one can't fathom that, then there is only Nazis and racists on one side and the opposing woke binary on the other.

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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:01 am 
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honorentheos wrote:
I took it more as an honest question of whether it's best to try and oppose/flip people suseptable to the message or redirect their view to something consistent with a traditional viable political position but not a reconversion as if it's a cult. I think how a person answers that comes down to how seriously a person takes the possibility there are reasonable alternatives outside of ones own views. If one can't fathom that, then there is only Nazis and racists on one side and the opposing woke binary on the other.


My complaint is that it elides making obvious connections to inform the reader because of an implied editorial bias that obscures and inadvertently downplays.

That Trump admin people seem interested in a modern Nazi book that has gained a cult following is an interesting story that Politico wouldn’t allow itself to tell in a straightforward way. If you give them the motive you supplied - strategy about how to dissuade people from joining them - that’s just bad journalistic ethics. Avoiding just spelling out the truth in a potentially misguided attempt at making reporting a battle over conversion is not helpful.

“Everything is Nazism with you guys” would be a hell of a reply to pointing out an almost exact equivalent of Nazism. At a certain point ones standards for what Nazism is become so strict that “never again” is a meaningless concept because Nazism is sui generis and therefore is impossible to repeat.


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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:20 am 
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Here are all of the quotes from the article where people in Trump's orbit are mentioned:

Since its publication in June 2018, the book has gained a following online, and its author, known to his fans as BAP for short, has come to the attention of notable figures on the Trumpist right. Earlier this month, the book was the subject of a 5,000-word review by Michael Anton, a conservative intellectual who served as a spokesman for Donald Trump’s National Security Council. Anton concludes by warning, “In the spiritual war for the hearts and minds of the disaffected youth on the right, conservatism is losing. BAP-ism is winning.”

Anton is just one of the Trump world figures who has taken notice. "It’s still a cult book,” said another former Trump White House official. “If you’re a young person, intelligent, adjacent in some way to the right, it’s very likely you would have heard of it.”

Right-wing agitator Mike Cernovich said he knows of young staffers in the White House who are fans of Bronze Age Pervert’s Twitter account — where the author posts photos of buff, shirtless men and promotes far-right positions on the culture war — though he does not know if they have read the book.

...

The book’s ascendance in online, far-right circles is indicative of the latest phase of the culture war that has fueled Trump’s presidency.

...

While the loose alt-right network that became infamous in 2016 was filled with attention-seeking provocateurs who cheered on Trump’s rise, the new voices in this space are alienated and ambivalent about Trump. And far from being inspired by his signature call to “Make America Great Again,” their view of contemporary American society is decidedly dystopian.

The memes — catchy ideas and images that are widely shared online — produced in such far-right internet circles, such as Pepe the Frog, regularly intrude on mainstream political discourse, sometimes even getting adopted by Trump himself. And the current fixations of these figures offer a glimpse of the concepts gaining traction there.

Figures in this space frequently refer to their belief that elite media is preparing Americans for a future in which their quality of life is greatly diminished and they are reduced to eating insects for protein.

“What is up with all these ‘we need to learn to eat cockroaches and maybe each other haha’ articles,” tweeted Just Loki on Wednesday, linking to a Newsweek article referencing cannibalism. “Perfect beer food—wash down your meal worms with a nice IPA!” tweeted 17thCenturyShytePost sarcastically in response to another article about eating insects earlier this month.

The accounts also oppose mass migration, echoing the themes of the “Great Replacement” conspiracy theory invoked by the gunman who perpetrated the Christchurch, New Zealand, massacre, and apparently again by the El Paso shooter. The idea, articulated in a 2011 book by the French writer Renaud Camus, claims that European elites are secretly conspiring to replace their countries’ white majorities with immigrants from Africa and the Middle East.

In his book, Bronze Age Pervert describes Western societies as ruled by “bug men” and “lords of lies,” urging readers to pursue a life of “sun and steel” — that is, tanning and weightlifting.

Across 77 chapters of cryptic musing, the book describes social justice as “disgusting parasitism,” opines that women who succeed in traditionally male domains are “spiritual lesbians,” and complains that the U.S. intelligence services employ too many Mormons.
...

Anton, in his review, earnestly reckons with the book’s critique of Charles Darwin and notes that at one point it cracked the top 150 bestsellers on Amazon. Anton writes that the book was given to him by Curtis Yarvin, an internet philosopher who writes under the name Mencius Moldbug, favors a return to monarchy and reportedly communicated with Steve Bannon through an intermediary while Bannon was in the White House.

After encountering the book’s intentional spelling and grammar mistakes, Anton gave up on it until former White House speechwriter Darren Beattie urged him to read it in its entirety. Beattie was fired from Trump’s White House last year after it was revealed he spoke at a 2016 conference attended by Peter Brimelow, whom the Southern Poverty Law Center describes as a white nationalist. Beattie, who denounced the firing as guilt-by-association, now works as a speechwriter for Republican Rep. Matt Gaetz of Florida, a close ally of Trump’s in the House.

Much like the Trump phenomenon itself, it can be difficult to tell where to place “Bronze Age Mindset” along the spectrum between elaborate joke and deadly serious. Reached via direct message on Twitter, Bronze Age Pervert, declined to discuss his real-world identity. In a rambling note, he said he was influenced by a book about homosexuality in the Nazi army and claimed, “I’m largely responsible for the Trump administration's push for universal worldwide sodomy promotion,” an apparent reference to the administration’s campaign to abolish laws that criminalize homosexuality. (This appears to be a joke. A source close to the White House who is familiar with the initiative scoffed at the claim.)

“There’s a whole generation of younger guys who are reading this and buying into this, but there aren’t a lot of paths to channel that constructively,” said one organizer on the Trumpist right, who declined to be named in an article that contained the term “alt-right.”

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 Post subject: Re: FOX NEWS is the MEDIA OUTLET FOR WHITE SUPREMACISM
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:32 am 
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Not exactly deeply embedded in the Trump admin by my reading.

Anyway, I'm not sure what could just as easily be a gorilla marketing campaign for the rerelease of Zack Schneider's 300 with serious homoerotic overtones is easily confirmed as overt Nazism. It's target audience are the 4chan types who are underemployed and of a generation hit disproportionately by the great recession facing hard new realities. I think there are ways to deal with this that don't involve shouting at people they are all Nazis. Because odds are they'll just embrace that and turn it back around on you. Oh, yeah. That's actually what's happening.

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