The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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_EAllusion
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by _EAllusion »

Markk wrote:
He did so repeatedly. The stats don't lie on this one:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... i?id=9J1mG


Yes they do not lie...In the one playoff match they had Payton held Jordan to 41%...and in all his match up's, he held Jordon to more than 2% less than is average of over 49%. He never sat him down like a scrub...he smoked many times, like he did everyone else, but few played Jordan as well and He and Dumars.

Michael Jordan was in his mid 30’s 18 months removed from an extended retirement when that happened. Jordan was still great then, but he was diminished and unable to play in the way he did earlier in his career. It’s a testimony to his greatness that he was still phenomenal when he was in noticeable decline.

Their career matchup lines are comical in how far apart they are. Jordan’s numbers are hall of fame good. Payton’s are a borderline starter. If you look at just pre-retirement Jordan, it’s best of all time good vs. garbage. Payton wasn’t quite at peak then, so we can give a nod to that, but there’s several games during that era where Payton was trash while Jordan killed it. The idea that Payton was never “sat down” by Jordan’s Bulls is ridiculous when looking at his lines in some of those games.

Look at it this way. You are bragging about Payton knocking 2% off Jordan’s career fg%. But Payton faced Jordan passed his prime a fair amount. Combined with small sample size and you have zero evidence Payton did anything to slow Jordan down. Meanwhile, Payton is statistically not even a good player in total career matchups against Jordan. This should tell you something about who’s wearing the glove.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Markk wrote:
Your nuts...almost all your players need the ball.


Only Jordan and Stockton are ball dominant players by game on that list. Stockton is there to have someone who can make the team run the correct x’s and o’s if needed while being a good shooter and defender. Also to cheat. But he’s a back bench guy otherwise.

There’s several other players who can be ball dominant or not. On this team, they wouldn’t be. Players like James, Johnson, Durant don’t have to dribble around to get looks for themselves or their team. It’s just they are good enough with the ball that teams end up using their shot creating ability. All of them are capable of great off ball work. Durant can pick and pop at range all day. I picked catch and shoot, one or two dribble, hall of fame types all over the place because I was thinking about pace and space team ball. Jordan is my one cheat, but I am cheating for a guy who was virtually unstoppable in 2 point efficiency in his prime even as the first, second, and third option while also being the best defending guard ever. Hard to pass up. Plus the refs like him.

Miller was a great off ball guy. Truly great. So he has going for him, but I think cross-era comparison is getting you tangled up. He played several feet in from what Curry does and on lower volume. He took “better” shots, in other words. What Curry gives you is more space to operate because he’s doing Miller things on a higher degree of difficulty. He punishes you for conceding further out, which forces teams to adjust. Having to make that adjustment is bad when you have an elite scorer at every other point on the floor. I am using Curry to break the D, in other words.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Jabbar was absurd at running to a spot, catching the ball, dribbling once, then elevating for a high % sky hook.

He was also all time good at every other facet of center play. For my money, he’s the GOAT.

He *can* be a ball dominant post up player, but on this team, he’s there to take easy sky hooks if teams let him get to his spots and there isn’t a better option elsewhere. He’s great passing out of that spot too, so it’s the ideal traditional center for this kind of team. He’s elite as a rebounder and interior defender.

He might be a liability against a small ball of death lineup, so he gets subbed for a smaller lineup if that’s happening. Young Kareem was freakishly quick, though, so he might be able to hang with that.

I am not sure what your team does when the lineup is something like Curry, Jordan, Bird, Durant, Norwitzki. Pray?
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by _Markk »

EAllusion wrote:Jabbar was absurd at running to a spot, catching the ball, dribbling once, then elevating for a high % sky hook.

He was also all time good at every other facet of center play. For my money, he’s the GOAT.

He *can* be a ball dominant post up player, but on this team, he’s there to take easy sky hooks if teams let him get to his spots and there isn’t a better option elsewhere. He’s great passing out of that spot too, so it’s the ideal traditional center for this kind of team. He’s elite as a rebounder and interior defender.

He might be a liability against a small ball of death lineup, so he gets subbed for a smaller lineup if that’s happening. Young Kareem was freakishly quick, though, so he might be able to hang with that.

I am not sure what your team does when the lineup is something like Curry, Jordan, Bird, Durant, Norwitzki. Pray?


Run them to death...dominate the boards and force turnovers...all yours need multiple touches to be effective. Yours is a half court offense, who is going to do the dirty work? Bird would end up doing it, because he is a stud...so he is out of his game. You basically have Norwitzki playing center against Akeem and Shaq...good luck.

If you get us into a half court game, we can pack the middle with shaq and Akeem put Lebron on the wing and have Magic, West, Clyde, Reggie and the others work in the back court. I would always have a Jones, Pippin, or Rodman doing the dirty work.

And yes we would pray, we would pray for forgiveness after running them off the court.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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I am not sure what your team does when the lineup is something like Curry, Jordan, Bird, Durant, Norwitzki. Pray?


Run them to death


You have the slower team. By a lot. Your center isn’t going to run Kevin Durant to death. You should be worried about getting run to death. One of the core weaknesses of your team is that you can't go small. Your small-ball lineup is too small. So you either have relatively slow center being dragged all over the court or you are giving way too much up to taller players with speed.

dominate the boards


What boards? People have to miss shots for those to exist. Being moderately better at getting rebounds isn’t going to generate the additional possessions necessary to counteract being shot out of the gym.

Think of a defensive rebound as preventing X number of additional possessions for the opposing team and an offensive one as generating one. Rebounding efficiency can bend the number of possessions a team gets, but the kind of superior rebounding efficiency you are getting doesn't overcome the points per possession you are giving up.

and force turnovers...all yours need multiple touches to be effective. Yours is a half court offense, who is going to do the dirty work? Bird would end up doing it, because he is a stud...so he is out of his game. You basically have Norwitzki playing center against Akeem and Shaq...good luck.


3 points is more points than 2 points. 1.5 times as many, in fact. You should be wishing Shaq luck trying to defend Nowitski beyond the arc. It takes 50% 2 point field goal % to match 33% 3 point fg %. The problem is your team does not have a good plan for preventing at least one elite shooter getting wide open. People like Nowitski are much better on open or near open looks than their career average. If you hassle Shaq on defense, but still give up 65% FG because Shaq dominates weaker opponents, that's .65 x 2 or 1.3 points per possession. If one of Bird, Norwitzki, Curry, and Durant combined hit just 50% of their open looks, which is being generous to you, that's 1.5 points per possession. It's better. And realistically they probably are going to hit north of that with players like Shaq struggling to close out on ball swings.

It would be extremely difficult to prevent ball swing from freeing up someone for an easy 3 or just allowing Jordan to score at an absurd rate. You can’t cheat off anyone. I guess Rodman can always catch the ball after it goes through the hoop. Doing dirty work.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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This thread made me troll advanced basketball stats for a bit. One thing that struck me:

Curry is 7th all time in eFG% right now. Every single person above him is a center, several of which of just niche use guys. Shaq and Artis Gilmore are the only two who are more than that, though obviously both were limited to post play. Gilmore, interestingly, is more statistically similar to Shaq than I would have guessed. Slightly different games, but reasonbly similar results over career.

The best eFG% players are basically high % post players and Curry. There's a few shooters here and there, but none that are high volume scorers. Curry is nuts. In terms of career scoring efficiency from range, he's in a tier by himself.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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I've said it before, but Steph is the Babe Ruth of basketball: Steph Curry did for the 3 point shot what Babe Ruth did for the home run. They both changed the way the game is played. Steph can be streaky, and he still makes too many mental errors. But when he gets hot, I think he's the most electrifying player in basketball.

Here's an interesting idea for the 5 on 5 clone game: What if one clone is having a bad night? How well do the other clones adapt?

One guy who never gets mentioned is Pete Maravich, one of the greatest scorers of all time. Maravich was something of a narcissist in a team sport, which definitely took a lot of sheen off his game. If Pete's father would have bowed out of his professional life, and had Maravich played for a great coach like Red Auerbach, he might have been one of the all-time greats. Rarely known for his defense, but his ball handling and shooting skills were all-world. Like a lot of athletes that are mentored and groomed by overbearing fathers, he was a bit of a head case. For me, Pete is one of the great 'what ifs' of basketball.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by _Some Schmo »

I would take any one of the Harlem Globetrotters, so long as they can bring a mini trampoline and a step ladder onto the court.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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It's easy to forget but Isaiah Thomas was a mediocre to poor shooter and would struggle to find a home in the modern NBA. His modern comp is someone like a pre-injury Rajon Rondo. That's currently a type of player where it is a debate if you even want them in your starting 5. He would not be considered a top 5 point guard in the NBA in 2019, much less one of all time. If you are drafting Thomas over even a Damian Lillard, you be high.

Even in his era where point guards didn't need to be effective shooters, he was a turnover machine and has very sketchy winshare numbers. His closest aggregate statistical comp is Stephon Marbury. That is not a compliment when we are talking about all time greats. Some memorable playoff games have left him overrated.

If you want Thomas on your team, might I suggest a prime Chris Paul instead? That's probably closer to what you imagine you are getting. If you just want someone who is a tough as nails defender and can run an offense, then why not Stockton? Stockton runs an offense as well as anyone. But Stockton can actually shoot and will punish you if you leave him open. His drawback is shared by Thomas. He's alarmingly short for the all-time league. That probably limits when he can be on the floor.
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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EAllusion wrote:It's easy to forget but Isaiah Thomas was a mediocre to poor shooter and would struggle to find a home in the modern NBA. His modern comp is someone like a pre-injury Rajon Rondo. That's currently a type of player where it is a debate if you even want them in your starting 5. He would not be considered a top 5 point guard in the NBA in 2019, much less one of all time. If you are drafting Thomas over even a Damian Lillard, you be high.

Even in his era where point guards didn't need to be effective shooters, he was a turnover machine and has very sketchy winshare numbers. His closest aggregate statistical comp is Stephon Marbury. That is not a compliment when we are talking about all time greats. Some memorable playoff games have left him overrated.

If you want Thomas on your team, might I suggest a prime Chris Paul instead? That's probably closer to what you imagine you are getting. If you just want someone who is a tough as nails defender and can run an offense, then why not Stockton? Stockton runs an offense as well as anyone. But Stockton can actually shoot and will punish you if you leave him open. His drawback is shared by Thomas. He's alarmingly short for the all-time league. That probably limits when he can be on the floor.


LOL.. Isiaih along with Clyde and Stockton are the three greatest prototype 1's....period, and all three play tenacious defense. Magic is a hybred, and Payton would be a 2 more than a 1 on my team mainly a defender and getting out on the break ,and not in this conversation.

This is one reason why Isaiah is key to my team.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6n0HZgKqK8 ...granted Mahorn would have killed him, but Isaiah was a stud and would be all over Steph, he would make him Cry.

Isaiah, along with Stockton and Frazier, were voted on the 50 greatest players of all time team, by his peers...you simply have no idea what you are talking about. I thought hard about either Stockton or Thomas, but choose Isaiah for his speed, and his rings, something Stockton failed to get. Between my 3 point guards on my team they have nine rings between them. And Isaiah was also But Stockton would fit well on my team also.

Turnovers...he average 3.8 and Steph averages 3.1...and Isaiah is listed as 6-1 and step is listed 6-3...which means nothing. Magic averages almost 4 and Lebron about the same. Hardly a machine, it is one more a game more than Stockton...I can live with that.


Isaiah is listed as 6-1 and steph is listed 6-3...which means nothing.
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