Stopping the subversion of the democratic process

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_MeDotOrg
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Stopping the subversion of the democratic process

Post by _MeDotOrg »

When you think about the Mexican Border and Russian Interference in our elections, they would appear to be disconnected. But illegal immigration and foreign interference in our elections are both about negative influences coming over our border. With respect to immigration, while Republicans and Democrats might have different ideas, they nevertheless have specific plans with respect to illegal immigration.

But where are the specific plans to deal with Russian interference in 2020? Lost in the collusion/obstruction arguments in the Mueller report are facts that are pretty much uncontested: Russia interfered with the election, tried to elect one candidate and defeat the other. For those who say that Russian interference in our elections is nothing new, that may be true, but the development of social media as a disinformation platform and the intensity of their efforts in 2016 were absolutely unprecedented.

Is this the new norm? Do we accept this? Rudy Giuliani says taking information from the Russians is not illegal. Should it be? Should we normalize the behavior that it is okay for a Presidential campaign to get negative information from a foreign government to help one candidate over another? The theft of information and its transmission need to be defined with respect to campaigns and campaign finance.

The issues of collusion and obstruction do not exist if there is nothing to collude or obstruct. Trump likes building walls. How about campaign finance laws that build a wall between Americans and our enemies trying to subvert the democratic process?
"The great problem of any civilization is how to rejuvenate itself without rebarbarization."
- Will Durant
"We've kept more promises than we've even made"
- Donald Trump
"Of what meaning is the world without mind? The question cannot exist."
- Edwin Land
_honorentheos
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Re: Stopping the subversion of the democratic process

Post by _honorentheos »

I read your OP while keeping up on the news coming out of Sri Lanka and the horrific bombings at places of Christian worship and accommodations popular with foreign tourists. It's a story that is shocking in it's scope and coordinated hate needed for this kind of attack to happen.

It makes it difficult for me to believe that democratic processes will ever be safe from attack by those who would see the world divided; who despise pluralism and instead define their patriotism as contingent on looking a certain way, worshiping a certain way, claiming common heritage over a common commitment to principles that have made so much possible despite our baser instincts.

I don't know where the solution space lies. On the one hand our principles should make things like not working with a foreign government to subvert a democratic election a given. Yet there's a balance that leads to tension in maintaining sovereignty without descending into isolationist paranoia.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_EAllusion
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Re: Stopping the subversion of the democratic process

Post by _EAllusion »

The only thing that can make the type of Russian interference we've seen up to this point even marginally successful is the receptiveness of the American people to some rather pathetic attempts at manipulation. And what made that work was the broken media culture. The problems are well known - the vast right-wing propaganda apparatus, financial incentives for tabloid journalism, false balance as a journalistic ethic, etc. The solutions don't seem to exist yet.
_SteelHead
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Re: Stopping the subversion of the democratic process

Post by _SteelHead »

And here I thought we were going to have a rousing discussion about how the US is interfering with the democratically elected president of Venezuela, by recognizing the opposition leader and threatening an invasion.


Ok, maybe not so democratically elected.

We have toppled several democracies in SA, and now cry foul when the Russians influence our election through targeted ad campaigns. The height of hypocrisy,
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
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_MeDotOrg
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Re: Stopping the subversion of the democratic process

Post by _MeDotOrg »

SteelHead wrote:And here I thought we were going to have a rousing discussion about how the US is interfering with the democratically elected president of Venezuela, by recognizing the opposition leader and threatening an invasion.


Ok, maybe not so democratically elected.

We have toppled several democracies in SA, and now cry foul when the Russians influence our election through targeted ad campaigns. The height of hypocrisy,


I am well aware of the U.S. involvement in the overthrow of governments in South America, the Chicago School of Economics. and the influence of the World Bank in South American financial shenanigans.

It seems to me we have a choice: We can try to bring sunshine to our government. The present should be exposed, the past can be remembered, and what no longer needs to be classified should be released and examined. We have a free press that does a pretty good job of that under the Freedom of Information Act. At the same time we can try to identify and control attempts to influence our democracy.

Or...

We can say because we have initiated coups and fought on the side of colonialism and repression, we therefore have abdicated our right to elections free of foreign influence in perpetuity. It's an interestingly specific kind of self-flagellation. We have broken peace treaties. Should we call for other countries to abdicate peace treaties with us?

I don't see how letting other countries interfere in our elections will make the United States a better place.
"The great problem of any civilization is how to rejuvenate itself without rebarbarization."
- Will Durant
"We've kept more promises than we've even made"
- Donald Trump
"Of what meaning is the world without mind? The question cannot exist."
- Edwin Land
_SteelHead
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Re: Stopping the subversion of the democratic process

Post by _SteelHead »

It won't. But we too should stay out of the politics of our neighbors. Would we be interested in who runs Venezuela if there was not significant oil reserves there?
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_Themis
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Re: Stopping the subversion of the democratic process

Post by _Themis »

SteelHead wrote:It won't. But we too should stay out of the politics of our neighbors.


When it comes to other strong democracies I would say yes, but it is way more complicated in the real world.

Would we be interested in who runs Venezuela if there was not significant oil reserves there?


There are other interests and more countries becoming dictatorships will not be good for US democracy. Look at the how much damage one of the worst dictators getting a Moron like Trump elected has done to US democracy, and I suspect they may have more influence on this Moron.

Should the US be trying to influence Russians politics? I would say yes. Especially with their involvement in US politics.
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