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 Post subject: Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:08 am 
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Chap, I hope he does. I’d like to read up.

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 Post subject: Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:09 am 
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Gunnar wrote:
There has been far too much nonsense, injustice and atrocity perpetrated in the name of God and religion through the ages for me to have any confidence in religion beyond the obvious wisdom and benefits of striving to treat others as one would like to be treated, which is the one thing on which all respectable religions seem to agree.


There has been far too much nonsense, injustice and atrocity perpetrated in the name of God and religion through the ages for me to have any confidence in the way that egocentric, greedy, and/or arrogant people choose to facilitate their religion beyond the obvious wisdom and benefits of striving to treat others as one would like to be treated, which is the one thing on which all respectable religions seem to agree and their self proclaimed adherents fail to live by.

There. I feel better now.

I don't think these things represent a failure of any particular god or a religion. They represent a failure on the part of human beings who project their own will upon the will of their god and use it as an excuse to do harm and exercise domination in the name of their god.

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 Post subject: Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:41 am 
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Chap wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
Do you have a reference to 97% of our universe being in a higher quantum dimension?


Wanna bet that he does?

It's been a while since I did my research for on this. I remember I did some here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy There are a bunch of links inside to connects to other things. Unfortunately, when you are trying to prove someone, Wikipedia changes. But in case, I remember it said something like, "at the time of the Big Bang, the matter and antimatter almost completely destroyed each other. Only about 0.000000001% (I just remember was about 9 digit out) survived. Of that, about 97% was so hot from the explosion it instantly find itself in a higher plane.

The "tighter vibration" was something I saw on TV I think. Basically, the particles, like the electrons, worked in a tight circle, so small it might be like comparing an atom to our solar system.

In this article, I didn't look through it completely, or the links. It took days of reading before. But it does talk about Dark Matter and Dark Energy as "less dense" as our matter. It's energy and matter, but it might move through us and we would not know. It's particles, though equal in mass, could move through us like a bullet through out solar system. Though the article implied that the energy ascended, I might have inserted that word. But basically, Dark Matter is a less dense energy and matter around us.

Chap wrote:
SPG wrote:
So Chap, at your recommendation, I got this book [Lucretius, De Rerum Natura], went through it over the weekend.

It doesn't say anything that I haven't said


Erm, the point in suggesting that you should read this 2,000 year old book was not that you should think of its author as some kind of competitor for whatever prize it may be that you are going in for ...

Ok. I thought I was going to get an education. If that wasn't the point, what was?


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 Post subject: Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:32 pm 
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Thanks, SPG. Ethan Siegal has a blog called Starts With A Bang that I think covers astrophysics very well. It started out on Scienceblogs and then moved to Forbes a few years back. Here’s a recent entry on the antimatter puzzle. https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswith ... 7ede585826

I really like him because he clearly identifies what physicists don’t know and why it matters. He also explains multiverse theory in a way I can understand.

I’m pretty sure he has posted on dark matter and energy.

I use Wikipedia as a reference tool, so I know what you mean. As we don’t know what dark matter and dark energy are, I don’t think we have a good handle on how they are created. I suspect the quantum dimension thing was someone’s speculation.

On the neutrinos, the issue isn’t size. Neutrinos don’t interact with the electromagnetic and strong forces, allowing them to pass though matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:53 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
Thanks, SPG. Ethan Siegal has a blog called Starts With A Bang that I think covers astrophysics very well. It started out on Scienceblogs and then moved to Forbes a few years back. Here’s a recent entry on the antimatter puzzle. https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswith ... 7ede585826

I really like him because he clearly identifies what physicists don’t know and why it matters. He also explains multiverse theory in a way I can understand.

I’m pretty sure he has posted on dark matter and energy.

I use Wikipedia as a reference tool, so I know what you mean. As we don’t know what dark matter and dark energy are, I don’t think we have a good handle on how they are created. I suspect the quantum dimension thing was someone’s speculation.

On the neutrinos, the issue isn’t size. Neutrinos don’t interact with the electromagnetic and strong forces, allowing them to pass though matter.


Even so, on the neutrino things, there for a little while, it was the smallest thing we had.

Which sort brings me full cycle with this stuff. We don't know. A little while back, I mentioned some scientists are back-walking the Big Bang and everyone here thought I was a heretic. Today, when searching for my references, the search-engines were plugged with the "No Big Bang" headlines. The universe is eternal, no beginning. Of course, I was saying stuff like that a while back, that some processes are eternal, always was, always will be. And that before the Big Bang, there was stuff going on.

The internet isn't fast enough to keep up with all of the theories.

I have my own theories, which don't match anything I've read. And then when I read something that comes close, I study and use it to convey some of the ideas.

Like, I saw in a vision, (years before dark matter went public) that there 4 beings, even greater then the light, living in the dark. They were loving, sophisticated beings. The "light" was the odd one.

So, the Dark Matter and Dark Energy sort of matches that. In my vision, the dark male child, older sibling to the light, realized that the Light wasn't going to make it (live) and so used his own body and jumped into the light to support him. But the Light was blind to them all, thought himself the only one.

This sort of matches what we think of dark matter, that it supports our universe of light, that would have collapsed in on itself.

I see the universe as living beings, more then I see it as particles and quarks, and such. But, I don't ignore what we learn, or think we know. But see is as alive, as a part of who WE ARE. That to understand ourselves, we must understand the relationship between the dark matter and light. Not as a good and evil, but as parts seen and unseen.


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 Post subject: Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:39 pm 
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Perhaps Google knows you too well. There are papers from time to time that propose alternatives to the BBT. And some folks get excited. But the BBT is the best fit to the evidence that we have. I certainly don’t see evidence of a move to abandon it.

If by “knowing” you mean “impossible to be wrong,” then I agree that we don’t know. But that type of knowing only exists if formalized systems like logic or math. Outside of those kinds of systems, “knowing” is based on a sliding scale of confidence. In my opinion, it makes no sense to say “well, I’m only 60% confident, so the best thing to do is make up a different answer.”

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 Post subject: Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:16 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
Perhaps Google knows you too well. There are papers from time to time that propose alternatives to the BBT. And some folks get excited. But the BBT is the best fit to the evidence that we have. I certainly don’t see evidence of a move to abandon it.

If by “knowing” you mean “impossible to be wrong,” then I agree that we don’t know. But that type of knowing only exists if formalized systems like logic or math. Outside of those kinds of systems, “knowing” is based on a sliding scale of confidence. In my opinion, it makes no sense to say “well, I’m only 60% confident, so the best thing to do is make up a different answer.”


I don't really have a problem with BBT, except that its incomplete. How can you says it's the best model we have there is NOTHING to explain how it happened. That we think things explained out from the center of point is like 1% of what happened. How did it get there? What happened up to that point? Since is really an illusion, and we just compare processes to other processes, how do we know how long it too? Maybe the gravity at the center was go high time (process) almost held still what seemed to happen really fast really took billions of years.

Of every freaking space anomaly we can think of, that BB would have all of them times a million. Imagine a universe with a mass to create billions of black holes, which can slow times almost to a stop, had all of that mass at the beginning. I don't know anyone can talk time around the BBT.


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 Post subject: Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:39 pm 
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Please.

You can't talk meaningfully about many of the questions touched on in recent posts without learning some real, hard physics and maths.

Knowing what you don't know is really important. For a start, it saves you wasting a lot of time and energy talking nonsense.

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 Post subject: Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:42 pm 
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It’s the best fit to the evidence. It was used to make predictions that were later confirmed. It is consistent with the physical laws we know. And the math works. No other theory does all that as well.

A good theory doesn’t just make stuff up so that it can answer questions. It explains the evidence we have. And when it doesn’t have evidence, it says “I don’t know.” We do not have evidence from before the start of the inflationary period. The laws of the universe don’t tell us what came before. We can speculate, but speculation isn’t a theory.

There is a ton of stuff written about the BBT. In the early stages, there wasn’t the baryonic matter that we experience as normal matter, so I don’t think time dilation is an issue. But you can read up on what the theory actually says yourself.

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 Post subject: Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:55 pm 
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Here is Ethan Siegal on why the BBT fits the evidence: https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswith ... a877191cc5

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 Post subject: Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:45 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Please.

You can't talk meaningfully about many of the questions touched on in recent posts without learning some real, hard physics and maths.

Knowing what you don't know is really important. For a start, it saves you wasting a lot of time and energy talking nonsense.

I found meaning the dumbest of words.

Depending on your standards, anything can be a waste of time.


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 Post subject: Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:11 am 
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SPG wrote:
Chap wrote:
Please.

You can't talk meaningfully about many of the questions touched on in recent posts without learning some real, hard physics and maths.

Knowing what you don't know is really important. For a start, it saves you wasting a lot of time and energy talking nonsense.

I found meaning the dumbest of words.

Depending on your standards, anything can be a waste of time.


Talking about some topic with confidence on the basis of total ignorance and confusion about the basic concepts necessary for informed discourse is surely a waste of time by anyone's standard, isn't it?

Suppose that someone who didn't know the difference between what is measured by volts and by amperes, and who confused power and energy, and had no idea of the difference between a single phase supply and a three-phase supply, while being totally innocent of the legal standards for domestic electric wiring, was to start rambling on about the way the electricity supplies to his house and workshop were designed and set up.

You think there are some people somewhere who wouldn't find that a waste of time? The only circumstances under which I can imagine that being the case would be if the intent of the speaker was to make people laugh.

But you are being serious - aren't you?

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 Post subject: Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:06 am 
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Chap addressing SPG wrote:
The only circumstances under which I can imagine that being the case would be if the intent of the speaker was to make people laugh.

Yep. All fun and games until someone like SPG tries to actually apply his imaginary nonsense in the real world. Then you get charlatans like those who one finds now and then here in Florida.

These guys claim to know stuff about which they have no real clue while performing amazing feats derring-do such as unlicensed electrical work that results in a house fire or screwing up the books of an unsuspecting company, eventually costing said company millions of dollars. As a result, some of these geniuses have ended up losing lawsuits that cost them everything they have - or had.

Best advice to SPG: Don't quit your day job.

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 Post subject: Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:02 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Talking about some topic with confidence on the basis of total ignorance and confusion about the basic concepts necessary for informed discourse is surely a waste of time by anyone's standard, isn't it?

Suppose that someone who didn't know the difference between what is measured by volts and by amperes, and who confused power and energy, and had no idea of the difference between a single phase supply and a three-phase supply, while being totally innocent of the legal standards for domestic electric wiring, was to start rambling on about the way the electricity supplies to his house and workshop were designed and set up.

You think there are some people somewhere who wouldn't find that a waste of time? The only circumstances under which I can imagine that being the case would be if the intent of the speaker was to make people laugh.

But you are being serious - aren't you?

I have no problem with people laughing, with me or at me. If some innocent person is trying to explain what he is seeing using words like, "sparky thingy, that buzzes when you touch it, and nearly kills you if you put your tongue on it,. . . . . I can work with that. Just because I can explain the delta Y of the power generation doesn't make someone else who doesn't understand can't experience electricity.

Part of my persona is the "Captain Jack Sparrow of we don't know." Just because you know more then me, (or think you know) doesn't make me assume I'm completely wrong and should give up my pursuits of understanding. Just because I don't have the money, or the time left, to go to some fancy college doesn't mean I have to give up on trying to understand these things.

In spite of what you think, I spend a fair of time reviewing different theories. So while I cannot do the math (even though I'm pretty expert with multi-meters,) I can listen to someone that does and try to grasp what they are talking about. I've watched dozens of quantum/BBT lectures from the Royal Institute of Science in England, and many more, online, TV, or articles. If I spend 10 hours getting even one new insight that subject, it's time well spent.

So, if this is a waste of your time. . . . have another beer, chill. Einstein was a failure in so many aspects of his life, he wasn't a good student, a good teacher, a good husband, or a good patient clerk. But, he had spent times imagining himself running along side light in his youth. It threw him into a different class of thinking that few could compete with, because they were not so imaginative. I don't think he was much smarter then his fellows, just thought differently.

What you don't understand, one of the days, your great-grand kids will be studying BBT as taught by SPG. Because I'm smart? No, because I was willing to look at it different, more subtle aspects of existence.


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 Post subject: Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:59 pm 
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SPG wrote:
Just because I don't have the money, or the time left, to go to some fancy college doesn't mean I have to give up on trying to understand these things.


No problem. The most important things in my life (and those on which my career has been based) I learned on my own, by reading the right books.

SPG wrote:
I've watched dozens of quantum/BBT lectures from the Royal Institute of Science in England,


You mean the Royal Institution? Yup, all good stuff. But when you see those lectures, don't you really want to learn the stuff for real? It's all in books. You don't have to be satisfied with what you see on TV, however good.

SPG wrote:
What you don't understand, one of the days, your great-grand kids will be studying BBT as taught by SPG. Because I'm smart? No, because I was willing to look at it different, more subtle aspects of existence.


No, sorry. That isn't going to happen. You can't even ask the questions needed to make advances in fundamental science without first acquiring the necessary tools. And if only you would make a start on that, even a beginning would give you much more satisfaction than you will ever get by fantasising like this.

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That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:16 pm 
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SPG wrote:

What you don't understand, one of the days, your great-grand kids will be studying BBT as taught by SPG. Because I'm smart? No, because I was willing to look at it different, more subtle aspects of existence.


Image

I promise you this will never, ever happen. Ever. You are delusional.

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 Post subject: Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:50 pm 
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Chap wrote:
No, sorry. That isn't going to happen. You can't even ask the questions needed to make advances in fundamental science without first acquiring the necessary tools. And if only you would make a start on that, even a beginning would give you much more satisfaction than you will ever get by fantasising like this.


You guys are serious dream killers. And sure, I am making fun. But, my point in this was that's it's not always the learned that see the truth of things. The institutes would have kicked Einstein to the curb if not for a couple of chance events. Please, don't worry that I'm wasting my time. I've got nothing more important than to dazzle you with my BS.


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 Post subject: Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:41 am 
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SPG wrote:
But, my point in this was that's it's not always the learned that see the truth of things. The institutes would have kicked Einstein to the curb if not for a couple of chance events.


"Not always the learned"?? Who are you talking about?

Albert Einstein had a passionate interest in physics and mathematics from an early age, and taught himself a great deal of both from books, just as I am urging you to do, and as you would do if your interest in these matters was real, rather than simply an excuse to pretend to be a more interesting person than you are (at the moment, at least - you could be a REALLY interesting person if only you were prepared to d the necessary work):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Ei ... _education

Quote:
When the family moved to Pavia, Einstein, then 15, stayed in Munich to finish his studies at the Luitpold Gymnasium. His father intended for him to pursue electrical engineering, but Einstein clashed with authorities and resented the school's regimen and teaching method. He later wrote that the spirit of learning and creative thought was lost in strict rote learning. At the end of December 1894, he travelled to Italy to join his family in Pavia, convincing the school to let him go by using a doctor's note.[19] During his time in Italy he wrote a short essay with the title "On the Investigation of the State of the Ether in a Magnetic Field".

The twelve year old Einstein taught himself algebra and Euclidean geometry over a single summer. Einstein also independently discovered his own original proof of the Pythagorean theorem at age 12.[22] A family tutor Max Talmud says that after he had given the 12 year old Einstein a geometry textbook, after a short time "[Einstein] had worked through the whole book. He thereupon devoted himself to higher mathematics... Soon the flight of his mathematical genius was so high I could not follow."[23] His passion for geometry and algebra led the twelve year old to become convinced that nature could be understood as a "mathematical structure".[23] Einstein started teaching himself calculus at 12, and as a 14 year old he says he had "mastered integral and differential calculus".


in 1905 he completed his Ph.D. with the University of Zurich, and in that same year he published four major scientific papers, including his first one on relativity-related topics.

SPG wrote:
The institutes would have kicked Einstein to the curb if not for a couple of chance events.


By 1911, most theoretical physicists had accepted relativity, and in 1912 Einstein had been recommended for a Nobel prize. You don't know what you are talking about, as usual.

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Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:16 pm 
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DrW wrote:
Chap addressing SPG wrote:
The only circumstances under which I can imagine that being the case would be if the intent of the speaker was to make people laugh.

Yep. All fun and games until someone like SPG tries to actually apply his imaginary nonsense in the real world. Then you get charlatans like those who one finds now and then here in Florida.

These guys claim to know stuff about which they have no real clue while performing amazing feats derring-do such as unlicensed electrical work that results in a house fire or screwing up the books of an unsuspecting company, eventually costing said company millions of dollars. As a result, some of these geniuses have ended up losing lawsuits that cost them everything they have - or had.

Best advice to SPG: Don't quit your day job.

You remind me of some of my fellow Americans I knew in Spain when I was stationed there in the Air Force who didn't realize they couldn't just plug in their American made appliances into Spanish wall outlets without using a transformer to convert 220 volt 50 hertz Spanish current to standard American 110/120 volt current. They thought that all they needed was just an adapter plug to match American style plugs to European style outlets. One woman I talked to thought electricity was electricity everywhere, and had no clue that there could be different types of electricity, until she plugged in her expensive American made stereo and burned it out and nearly set her residence on fire. Her husband was very unhappy with her for not bothering to read the warnings about that provided by the orientation literature provided to all newly stationed American personnel.

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 Post subject: Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:30 pm 
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Chap wrote:
SPG wrote:
The institutes would have kicked Einstein to the curb if not for a couple of chance events.


By 1911, most theoretical physicists had accepted relativity, and in 1912 Einstein had been recommended for a Nobel prize. You don't know what you are talking about, as usual.

That after a number of chance things, like marrying the wife he abandoned. She probably did most of the hard work him. He had some great ideas, but he was refused numerous times to appointments he thought he deserved.

Don't get me wrong, he was accredited with numerous discoveries that I like. But people who have studied his life, think that maybe his wife did a lot of the work.

He was sent home as "unteachable" because he was careless and lazy.


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 Post subject: Re: Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't rea
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:49 am 
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It is always a bad sign when someone who gets off on amateur and ignorant vaporings about science starts posting stuff about Einstein.

It usually goes something like 'Hey! People thought Einstein was wrong/foolish/ignorant, but who's laughing now?'. Alas, it by no means follows that if people say your opinions about science are not worth a pitcher of warm spit, that shows you may well be a second Einstein.

On the matter of the first Mrs Einstein's possible contributions to his early work, a serious discussion may be found here:

Did Mileva Marić assist Einstein in writing his 1905 path breaking papers?

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That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


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