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 Post subject: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteria
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:28 am 
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Yeah, Trump's presser with Russian dictator Putin was terrible. In addition to looking like a buffoon (again), he undermined the credibility of American intelligence agencies. IMO, this was/is inexcusable for any sitting President and Americans, from all political parties, ought to be united in clear condemnation.

But..........

In addition to various reactions (many of them hysterical and way over the top IMO) there was one in particular that I would like to bring up - a MSNBC contributor (Watergate prosecutor, Jill Wine-Banks) who cited 911, Pearl Harbor and Kristallnacht (The unofficial beginning of the Holocaust, a night in 1938 when German Jews were beaten to death, Synagogues were burned to the ground and Jewish shops were destroyed).

Here is a quote from Jill during said interview:

“It’s just as serious to me as the Cuban Missile Crisis in terms of an attack, or the 9/11 attack. …His (Trump’s) performance today will live in infamy as much as the Pearl Harbor attack or Kristallnacht.”

Really?

There were over 2,400 Americans killed during the Pearl Harbor attack and this tragic incident paved the way for American involvement into WW 11.

Kristallnacht (one night) ended with the murder of over 90 innocent German Jews, massive property damage and the beginning of open season on Jews throughout Germany - The very origin of the Holocaust.

During the unimaginable 911 attacks, thousands of innocent American citizens were murdered.

These horrific moments in history are being equated with Trump complimenting the Russian dictator during a press conference in Helsinki?. Really!

What Trump did was inappropriate - It was odd - It was a huge blunder - It is worthy of unified condemnation from all Americans.

But - A reaction like this (vastly overstated IMO) is way over the top - It's hysteria! And it's very detrimental to all Americans and America.

To me, it's the political time that we are living in - very similar to members of the Trump administration and the tens of millions of American citizens who supported/voted for Trump being labeled as white supremacists, haters and even Nazis. Among other things, hysterically, wildly and irresponsibly attaching labels like Nazi to so many American citizens cheapens the Holocaust.

It's unreasonable, it's irrational and it's unbalanced hysteria.

Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:14 am 
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OK, here is a link ...

TRUMP’S PUTIN COMMENTS WILL ‘LIVE IN INFAMY’ LIKE PEARL HARBOR OR KRISTALLNACHT, SAYS WATERGATE PROSECUTOR

Quote:
President Donald Trump’s joint press conference with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Helskini will “live in infamy like Pearl Harbor or Kristallnacht,” according to former Watergate prosecutor Jill Wine-Banks.

The MSNBC contributor made the provocative comment on Monday night, adding her voice to numerous lawmakers’—both Democrat and Republican—who have slammed the president over his press conference comments on the Russia probe that appeared to side with Russia over the U.S.

Asked by stand-in host Ali Velshi about how people could make sense of Trump’s comments in the context of the Watergate investigation, during which “nobody thought that Richard Nixon was working on behalf of an enemy” of the U.S., Wine-Banks said, “You can’t make sense of it.”

“It’s very hard to possibly analyze. And you’re quite correct. The burglars were Americans. They worked for the White House. They worked for the committee to re-elect the president. They weren’t foreign agents. And yet, we were burglarized this time by foreign agents,” Wine-Banks told Velshi.

“And it’s just as serious to me as the Cuban Missile Crisis in terms of an attack or the 9/11 attack. The president is taking the side of the people who attacked us instead of trying to prevent a future attack. He has done nothing to make sure that the elections four months away are going to be safe,” she added. “And I would say that his performance today will live in infamy as much as the Pearl Harbor attack or Kristallnacht. And it’s really a serious issue we need to deal with.”

Trump’s comments at the press conference and afterward appeared to back the Russian leader’s denial of election meddling—despite the U.S. intelligence community telling Trump that Russia attempted to influence the outcome of the 2016 presidential election.

Keep Up With This Story And More By Subscribing Now

“I have President Putin. He just said it’s not Russia,” Trump told reporters following his press conference with Putin.

“I will say this: I don’t see any reason why it would be…. I have great confidence in my intelligence people, but I will tell you that President Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today,” he added, in comments that have prompted a backlash from a number of lawmakers and pundits.

Among the Republicans to publicly criticize the president were House Speaker Paul Ryan, retiring Arizona Senator Jeff Flake, and Arizona Senator John McCain, who called Trump’s comments “one of the most disgraceful performances by an American president in memory," NBC News reported.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:58 am 
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Wine-Banks' comments do seem to me to be 'over the top' in some respects.

She was however quite right to insist on the grave nature of the recent events to which she refers. The risks posed to the US by Russian cyber-attacks, and by the President's jaw-dropping public refusal to accept what his own intelligence community told him in favour of accepting Putin's word to the contrary, are far, far more serious than some silly exaggeration by a talking head that most people have never heard of.

Before Trump's election, could anybody ever have imagined that such things could happen? The US seems to be divided between people who are (in my view rightly) appalled by what Trump has said and done, and those who simply don't see that he has done anything (really, anything) that could be open to legitimate criticism.

And Trump seem happy to dig the ditch dividing the two groups deeper and deeper, since he perceives this division as essential in holding onto his electoral base. Worse, he may be right about that.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:52 am 
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Given how lightly the right is taking Russia's meddling, perhaps the rhetoric is compensation.

If your kid is on the edge of a cliff and doesn't realize it, you may find yourself yelling at him louder than usual.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:54 am 
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Hi buddy! Good to see you.
Quote:
“We were burglarized this time by foreign agents,” said Wine-Banks, a former Watergate prosecutor, speaking of the 2016 Russian hacking campaign. “It’s just as serious to me as the Cuban Missile Crisis in terms of an attack or the 9/11 attack. The president is taking the side of the people who attacked us.”

“His performance today will live in infamy as much as the Pearl Harbor attack or Kristallnacht and it’s really a serious issue that we need to deal with,” she added.
https://www.thewrap.com/this-msnbc-contributor-cited-9-11-pearl-harbor-and-kristallnacht-to-assess-trump-putin-summit/

So, for clarity: she personally considers the seriousness of the hacking campaign to be on par with that of the Cuban Missile Crisis or 9/11, and predicted that Trump's performance with Putin will someday be regarded as infamous as Pearl Harbor or Kristallnacht.
Ceeboo wrote:
Thoughts?
Mixed bag. In the context of sociopolitics (certainly not in the context of the loss of life), her comment about the seriousness of the hacking campaign may prove to be not so far off the mark. As far as the "infamy" remark goes: I guess future historians will have to have their say about that, but it seems unlikely to me. Shrug.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:59 am 
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Ceeboo wrote:
But - A reaction like this (vastly overstated IMO) is way over the top - It's hysteria! And it's very detrimental to all Americans and America.


It appears with the full quote her statement is not as vastly over the top as you thought. I doubt this person has so much influence to be detrimental to America. Now the president certainly would have that kind of influence, and you admit he did really terrible. Why would Trump keep saying he believes Putin and not his own intelligence community Ceeboo?

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 Post subject: Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:17 am 
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Bret Ripley wrote:
Hi buddy! Good to see you.

Hey Bret! Very nice to see you too. I hope all is well. :smile:

Quote:
Mixed bag. In the context of sociopolitics (certainly not in the context of the loss of life), her comment about the seriousness of the hacking campaign may prove to be not so far off the mark. As far as the "infamy" remark goes: I guess future historians will have to have their say about that, but it seems unlikely to me. Shrug.


Your contribution (including separating this from loss of life and speaking on a socio-political platform alone) is more than fair and I appreciate you offering it.

Yeah - I guess future historians will have their say.........in the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:21 am 
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Themis wrote:
Ceeboo wrote:
But - A reaction like this (vastly overstated IMO) is way over the top - It's hysteria! And it's very detrimental to all Americans and America.


It appears with the full quote her statement is not as vastly over the top as you thought.

Her quote (full of partial or 1 line or 6 lines) was and is way over the top IMO. Disagreeing with me is totally fine. Clarity of our differing positions is what's important, IMO.

Quote:
Why would Trump keep saying he believes Putin and not his own intelligence community Ceeboo?


I have exactly no idea why Trump does anything he does. (Why would you ask me that?)


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 Post subject: Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:31 am 
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Ceeboo wrote:
Quote:
Why would Trump keep saying he believes Putin and not his own intelligence community Ceeboo?


I have exactly no idea why Trump does anything he does. (Why would you ask me that?)


Because that is what I do when analyzing people and their motivations. May not be that important with most people, but certainly someone who wants to be leader of their country it is extremely important to ask these questions. With Trump I look at things like why would he avoid releasing his taxes to show the American people he is not up to things he shouldn't be. In most cases we are not going to have all or most of the evidence to make a choice, so we have to look at what we have and what the more reasonable motivations are. So why does Trump seem so friendly to Putin and makes a number of comments in favor of Russian foreign policy objectives?

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 Post subject: Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:35 am 
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Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference + Ceeboo = more dismissive hand waving


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 Post subject: Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:10 am 
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Kevin Graham wrote:
Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference + Ceeboo = more dismissive hand waving


Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference + Kevin Graham = Another example that clearly explains how utterly blind someone can become when they allow broad intolerance to thrive in them - A display of radically based political prejudices that completely block their vision on every level.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:16 am 
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Ceeboo wrote:
Yeah, Trump's presser with Russian dictator Putin was terrible. In addition to looking like a buffoon (again), he undermined the credibility of American intelligence agencies. IMO, this was/is inexcusable for any sitting President and Americans, from all political parties, ought to be united in clear condemnation.

But..........

Ceeboo, it's my own opinion that the last word there can be problematic.

You go on to describe an arguably over-the-top comment and assert that this is contributing to the poisonous political climate in the country, but you want to do this by removing all of the context that precedes it.

It's not that the President "looked like a buffoon", which implies a sort of innocent and solitary transgression, but that his continual insistence in publicly undermining the people of the intelligence community is something that signals a greater threat to some than a simple moment of buffoonery.

The President uses his completely unique position of power and public commentary to insult and undermine whatever and whomever he takes issue with, even when the folks that are the target of his ire are lawfully committing to their own responsibilities. Specifically, here he does so against the people charged with keeping us secure from this country's enemies. He has been doing this since Day One as President. As example he has, as of late, resorted to fantasticly hyperbolic statements about how the Mueller investigation is the most biased, possibly illegal and tainted "witch hunt" in the history of the Nation and how he is the most persecuted President ever. At some point, it is assumed that random cable show commentators will make remarks that are about as hysterical as the President has, but you could see that coming when our own President is willing to toss anyone under the bus so violently in attempts to preserve his own position and image. This is the example he is setting. Every day.


Quote:
To me, it's the political time that we are living in - very similar to members of the Trump administration and the tens of millions of American citizens who supported/voted for Trump being labeled as white supremacists, haters and even Nazis. Among other things, hysterically, wildly and irresponsibly attaching labels like Nazi to so many American citizens cheapens the Holocaust.

It's unreasonable, it's irrational and it's unbalanced hysteria.

Thoughts?

Back when we had the altercations in Charlottesville between white supremacists and their opponents, the President had an opportunity to unequivocally state his support for the idea that the Nazi idealism espoused by some would not, under any circumstances, be given the same respect as views on tolerance. Or that white supremacist voices did not represent American ideals, and that such demonstrations were worthy of defense. But Trump chose instead to equivocate on that issue out of a need to pander to his Base. He kneecapped respect for victims of the Holocaust long before your MSNBC reporter made the faulty comparison to Kristallnacht.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:22 am 
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Themis wrote:
Why would Trump keep saying he believes Putin and not his own intelligence community Ceeboo?


Ceeboo wrote:
I have exactly no idea why Trump does anything he does. (Why would you ask me that?)


Themis wrote:
Because that is what I do when analyzing people and their motivations. May not be that important with most people, but certainly someone who wants to be leader of their country it is extremely important to ask these questions.


Also, because making the attempt to picture what is going on in somebody else's head is a basic part of all normal processes of human interaction. The inability to do that is part of the problem that some autistic people have in dealing with non-autistic people, who expect them to do something seems to them normal, but which is to autists a skill they have to work at learning.

So the claim to have 'exactly no idea why Trump does anything he does' seems rather strange. I mean, 'anything'? Nothing at all? C'mon now, Ceeboo!

How about answering the question in this form:

"Suppose you were forced to bet $1000 on guessing why somebody in Trump's position might say that he believes Putin and not his own intelligence community. What hypothesis would you put your money on?"

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Last edited by Chap on Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:25 am 
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canpakes wrote:
The President uses his completely unique position of power and public commentary to insult and undermine whatever and whomever he takes issue with, even when the folks that are the target of his ire are lawfully committing to their own responsibilities. Specifically, here he does so against the people charged with keeping us secure from this country's enemies. He has been doing this since Day One as President. As example he has, as of late, resorted to fantasticly hyperbolic statements about how the Mueller investigation is the most biased, possibly illegal and tainted "witch hunt" in the history of the Nation and how he is the most persecuted President ever. At some point, it is assumed that random cable show commentators will make remarks that are about as hysterical as the President has, but you could see that coming when our own President is willing to toss anyone under the bus so violently in attempts to preserve his own position and image. This is the example he is setting. Every day.


Yup. Do you disagree, Ceeboo?

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 Post subject: Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:45 am 
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Chap wrote:

So the claim to have 'exactly no idea why Trump does anything he does' seems rather strange. I mean, 'anything'? Nothing at all? C'mon now, Ceeboo!


I don't know why Trump does anything. Period. And to be completely honest, neither do you.
I don't know why he undermined American intelligence agencies (But I can offer my opinion that his undermining ought to be seen as unacceptable to the great majority of American citizens). I don't know why Trump tweets all the ridiculous things he does (But I can offer my opinion on the utterly stupid and uncivil things that he tweets - Like calling Don Lemon stupid or the disrespectful remarks he tweeted about Lebron James). I don't know why Trump extended such warm and kind comments to the dictator of Russia (But I can offer my opinion concerning how inappropriate I personally believe it was)

Quote:
"Suppose you were forced to bet $1000 on guessing why somebody who in Trump's position might say that he believes Putin and not his own intelligence community. What hypothesis would you put your money on?"


Yeah - IMO, this is part (not all) of the problem. None of us know and to guess (these guesses are almost always based on political motivations as can be easily seen if you read the responses from those who are politically based on the left versus those who are politically based on the right and it's not just today with Trump. This can easily be seen over the last several decades - No matter who the President was at the time.

And, in my mind, there are countless possibilities concerning Trump's motivation/motivations behind this- As well as a laundry list of other things. The hypothesis that Putin has dirt on Trump or that Trump is Putin's money buddy are on that list but that list (again IMO) is much longer with a number of other possibilities.

Simply put, I don't know and I would suggest that you don't know either.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:50 am 
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Hey Ceeboo, Trump just admitted on Twitter that his campaign is guilty of conspiracy against the United States, which is a crime.

That doesn't even register on your list of concerns, eh?

No. Your #1 concern this week is to mock MSNBC because some guy said the Russian cyber attacks were just as serious as a conventional military attack.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:51 am 
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Chap wrote:
canpakes wrote:
The President uses his completely unique position of power and public commentary to insult and undermine whatever and whomever he takes issue with, even when the folks that are the target of his ire are lawfully committing to their own responsibilities. Specifically, here he does so against the people charged with keeping us secure from this country's enemies. He has been doing this since Day One as President. As example he has, as of late, resorted to fantasticly hyperbolic statements about how the Mueller investigation is the most biased, possibly illegal and tainted "witch hunt" in the history of the Nation and how he is the most persecuted President ever. At some point, it is assumed that random cable show commentators will make remarks that are about as hysterical as the President has, but you could see that coming when our own President is willing to toss anyone under the bus so violently in attempts to preserve his own position and image. This is the example he is setting. Every day.


Yup. Do you disagree, Ceeboo?


For the most part, I agree with comments above.

Even though my OP wasn't/isn't about Trump's behavior (I think we have enough of those threads going already, no?) My OP was about comments made that I believe are hysterical and way over the top.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:57 am 
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Ceeboo wrote:
I don't know why Trump does anything. Period. And to be completely honest, neither do you.
I don't know why he undermined American intelligence agencies (But I can offer my opinion that his undermining ought to be seen as unacceptable to the great majority of American citizens).


Why on earth should it be seen as unacceptable to American citizens - unless you believe that his assertion about Putin's innocence is incorrect? So can we take it you do believe that Putin is, on the whole, probably not innocent of seeking to interfere with US elections, which is what the US intelligence community asserts.

OK, Ceeboo?

So what do you think is the most likely reason, or reasons, for someone in the position of the President to make such an assertion as the one he made? Give us, ooh, maybe your top three candidates.

(Yup, I know that there are an infinite number of LOGICAL possibilities - including that Trump is a robot controlled by extra-terrestrials, or that he was making a joke. But we are asking you to do a probability judgement here, like we do in everyday life all the time.)

I can't see for the life of me why you are so extremely reluctant to form or express a view as to what Trump may have been up to.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:04 pm 
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Kevin Graham wrote:

No. Your #1 concern this week is to mock MSNBC

I wasn't mocking MSNBC - You would have easily been able to see that if you weren't so visually impaired.
Quote:
because some guy said

It was a woman - You should read the thread before you wildly start attacking.
Quote:
the Russian cyber attacks were just as serious as a conventional military attack.


You think the Holocaust and 911 are "conventional military attacks?"
God you're blind!


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 Post subject: Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:36 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Ceeboo wrote:
I don't know why Trump does anything. Period. And to be completely honest, neither do you.
I don't know why he undermined American intelligence agencies (But I can offer my opinion that his undermining ought to be seen as unacceptable to the great majority of American citizens).


Why on earth should it be seen as unacceptable to American citizens - unless you believe that his assertion about Putin's innocence is incorrect? So can we take it you do believe that Putin is, on the whole, probably not innocent of seeking to interfere with US elections, which is what the US intelligence community asserts.


I think it's crystal clear that Russia tried to interfere with the election - I think it's equally clear that the US intelligence community was and is accurate with the information they gathered that supports this interference.

Quote:
OK, Ceeboo?

Quote:
OK, Chap?


Quote:
(Yup, I know that there are an infinite number of LOGICAL possibilities - including that Trump is a robot controlled by extra-terrestrials

I thought (maybe I was wrong?) that we were having a sincere exchange of ideas. Given all the replies I have given you up to this point, this comment makes not want to proceed much longer.

Quote:
I can't see for the life of me why you are so extremely reluctant to form or express a view as to what Trump may have been up to.
[/quote]

"Extremely reluctant to form or express a view?' You must be kidding, no? I have expressed countless views in this thread thus far - beginning with the OP where I expressed, clearly, my personal views.

And while I understand that you mock a number of possibilities, it is my view that there are indeed a number of possibilities. Among these many possibilities (and at the top of my personal list) is Trump's enormous ego. The mere suggestion that his 2016 victory may be - or may be seen - as somehow ill-won is an extremely strong driving force for someone that possesses the vanity and narcissism that he exhibits. In my mind, it's the same with firing Comey. Simply put, this isn't about some nefarious plot, it's about Trump's ridiculous ego problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:45 pm 
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Putting things in a potential order:

Holocaust
Pearl Harbor
Cuban Missile Crisis

Trump's apparent compromise by Russia

Lady on MSNBC
Internet outrage of lady on MSNBC

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