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 Post subject: Re: 1984 in 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:59 am 
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Ceeboo wrote:
You will have to make that decision. But since you had to ask the question, I'm not very confident that you posses the wisdom or vision that is required to reach a responsible and mature choice.

That's ok, Ceeboo. I'm not very confident you possess the tools or experience it would take to make that determination in the first place.

*shrug*

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 Post subject: Re: 1984 in 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:21 am 
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Some Schmo wrote:
I agree with you, but what's funny about this is that while they may lose revenue over this, they also may gain it from other demographics. This is truly a market driven choice.
That is probably as safe a bet as any. Time will tell though, it took a while for the impacts of their false DMCA problems to sink in and even longer to correct the problem.

One of the grand ironies in this is that the same group that is angry at Google/Apple over their removing of content are often the same individuals who argue against making the internet a utility because they think the market is better at preserving free speech. Here I think we see where financial decisions drives poor behavior, not improves it(speaking more generally of censorship, not Alex Jones specifically).

A thought from the ACLU:
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The raging national battle over net neutrality is one reminder of the dangers of putting internet service in the hands of giant, monopolistic companies that are under constant pressure from Wall Street to squeeze profits out of their service every way they can. That pressure pushes them toward invading privacy, interfering with the free flow of information online, and prioritizing service where people are wealthier and more densely settled. All of those private incentives contradict the public interest.

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 Post subject: Re: 1984 in 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:25 am 
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Ceeboo wrote:
Are you suggesting that "most people on the right" privilege Alex Jones and reject sane voices? Or have I misunderstood?


I am suggesting that things like Birtherism and the hijinks of James O'Keefe are legitimized in the Right's media complex. Neither Birtherism nor O'Keefe are at all credible, but they get plenty of play on the Right, even resulting, in the latter case, in our GOP legislators conducting pointless, time and money wasting investigations and so forth.

The fact that Trump was a Birther and, instead of being laughed out of town, became president tells me all I need to know. If the Right were still soundly possessed of its collective faculties, Trump would not have made it past the first stages of the primaries. Mind you, I am not saying that he was elected because he was a Birther. I am saying that in ordinary circumstances being a Birther should have prevented him from being seriously considered as a credible candidate. It should have disqualified him. Unfortunately, the discourse on the Right has decayed to the point where it did not matter that Trump cynically peddled hogwash with the blessing of Rupert Murdoch on live television.

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Can you point me to a few examples of these Nazis popping up here and there?


You have heard of Arthur Jones, I hope. The guy Ted Cruz cautioned Republicans not to vote for. The won who ran uncontested for Illinois' 3rd Congressional District?

See https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/ted-cruz-illinois-district-3-race/index.html

Paul Nehlen, who is seeking to replace Ryan in Wisconsin's 1st Congressional District, calls his enemies "Jews," and Patrick Little, running for US Senate in California, is a white supremacist.

See https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/the-gop-s-nazi-problem-what-can-the-republican-party-do-about-it-1.6118752


Last edited by Kishkumen on Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 1984 in 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:29 am 
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Xenophon wrote:
One of the grand ironies in this is that the same group that is angry at Google/Apple over their removing of content are often the same individuals who argue against making the internet a utility because they think the market is better at preserving free speech. Here I think we see where financial decisions drives poor behavior, not improves it(speaking more generally of censorship, not Alex Jones specifically).


Indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: 1984 in 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:00 am 
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First - Thanks for taking the time to clarify for me.

Kishkumen wrote:
Ceeboo wrote:
Are you suggesting that "most people on the right" privilege Alex Jones and reject sane voices? Or have I misunderstood?

The fact that Trump was a Birther and, instead of being laughed out of town, became president tells me all I need to know. If the Right were still soundly possessed of its collective faculties, Trump would not have made it past the first stages of the primaries. Mind you, I am not saying that he was elected because he was a Birther. I am saying that in ordinary circumstances being a Birther should have prevented him from being seriously considered as a credible candidate. It should have disqualified him


Personally, I think there were countless reasons that he should have been eliminated from the possibility of becoming the elected President - Being a birther is on the bottom of page two of that list IMO.

As to the part of your quote I bolded above: Your use of political rhetoric didn't add any strength to your position. Your position was well stated and strong without it, IMO, and adding it, at best, distracted from your position. At worst..................

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Unfortunately, the discourse on the Right has decayed to the point

Thank God we can count of the Left for 100% of earnest and intelligent discourse.

Quote:
Can you point me to a few examples of these Nazis popping up here and there?


Quote:
You have heard of Arthur Jones, I hope. The guy Ted Cruz cautioned Republicans not to vote for. The won who ran uncontested for Illinois' 3rd Congressional District?


No, I hadn't heard of Arthur Jones - or the others examples you provided (Thanks for pointing them out) but I do share Ted Cruz's clear condemnation of Jones.


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 Post subject: Re: 1984 in 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:52 am 
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Ceeboo wrote:

No, I hadn't heard of Arthur Jones - or the others examples you provided (Thanks for pointing them out) but I do share Ted Cruz's clear condemnation of Jones.


Why would you trust Lyin' Ted Cruz? His dad killed Kennedy and his wife is ugly.

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 Post subject: Re: 1984 in 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:13 am 
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Ceeboo wrote:
Chap wrote:

But if there is any truth in what we find here, I hope that there are also some people on the right who find Canda Owens just a teeny bit embarrassing too:


Are you equating the expressed personal opinions (no matter what they are or who they are from) with a violent mob that gathered and attacked two American citizens eating breakfast in America?


Let's see. I began by quoting Schmo:

Quote:
The left is rationally embarrassed by the crazy behavior of their radicals.


Then I went on to say:

Chap wrote:
I have never heard of this person before, and I don't approve of people breaking the law by assaulting people with eggs.

But if there is any truth in what we find here, I hope that there are also some people on the right who find Canda Owens just a teeny bit embarrassing too:


How on earth could a rational person come away from reading my post with the question:

Quote:
Are you equating the expressed personal opinions (no matter what they are or who they are from) with a violent mob that gathered and attacked two American citizens eating breakfast in America?


Nope, they couldn't. But you somehow managed it ... even if to do so you had to omit my explicit expression of disapproval of the assault committed on these people.

Still, that's how you work isn't it? Such a sweet little innocent, misunderstood by everybody ...

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 Post subject: Re: 1984 in 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:23 am 
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Chap wrote:
How on earth could a rational person come away from reading my post with the question:

Quote:
Are you equating the expressed personal opinions (no matter what they are or who they are from) with a violent mob that gathered and attacked two American citizens eating breakfast in America?


Nope, they couldn't. But you somehow managed it ... even if to do so you had to omit my explicit expression of disapproval of the assault committed on these people.

Still, that's how you work isn't it? Such a sweet little innocent, misunderstood by everybody ...

He's having trouble reading people's posts with the beam stuck in his eye.

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 Post subject: Re: 1984 in 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:01 pm 
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Chap wrote:
How on earth could a rational person come away from reading my post with the question:


Quote:
Are you equating the expressed personal opinions (no matter what they are or who they are from) with a violent mob that gathered and attacked two American citizens eating breakfast in America?


Well, I never claimed to be rational but beyond that you wrote......

But if there is any truth in what we find here, I hope that there are also some people on the right who find Candace Owens just a teeny bit embarrassing too

So it was the "teeny bit embarrassing too" part that made me think you were suggesting that the mob attack at the coffee shop were both merely "A teeny bit embarrassing."

You have explained that you were not equating the two and I accept that. My apologies.

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Still, that's how you work isn't it? Such a sweet little innocent, misunderstood by everybody ...


Right.


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 Post subject: Re: 1984 in 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:18 pm 
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Ceeboo wrote:
You have explained that you were not equating the two and I accept that. My apologies.


Accepted. But please don't make it a habit to cut my posts and then mischaracterise them.

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 Post subject: Re: 1984 in 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:29 pm 
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Ceeboo wrote:
Personally, I think there were countless reasons that he should have been eliminated from the possibility of becoming the elected President - Being a birther is on the bottom of page two of that list IMO.


Where it fits on your personal list is really beside the point I was making. And this has to be more than just what you happen to personally feel on a topic. The point is that being a Birther is such an obvious thing one can point to that should clue people into serious problems in reasoning; the fact it was not a problem was and is a very bad sign.

Ceeboo wrote:
As to the part of your quote I bolded above: Your use of political rhetoric didn't add any strength to your position. Your position was well stated and strong without it, IMO, and adding it, at best, distracted from your position. At worst..................


I am sorry that correctly identifying a problem within a group is somehow disqualifying to you. It shouldn't be. The issue is entirely salient within the framework of the discussion. How can we discuss the problems with rhetoric and reasoning on the Right without talking about them? I am happy to acknowledge the existence of wacky conspiracy theories on both sides of the political spectrum. I am not aware that CNN or MSNBC has given attention to conspiracy theories in the way FOX News aided and abetted Birtherism. I am not aware of a phenomenon in the Center or on the Left in which people come to rallies identifying with a particular conspiracy theory in the way Qanon has flourished in the Trump Movement.

I feel no responsibility to play the game of false equivalencies simply because hearing about the problems on your side of the political spectrum is a turn off for you.

Ceeboo wrote:
Thank God we can count of the Left for 100% of earnest and intelligent discourse.


Did I say that? No, seriously. Did I say that? Please don't put words in my mouth or make it seem like I approve of ideas I do not approve of. If this is you being flip or sarcastic, fine. But I don't agree with it. If this is you saying that I am somehow putting myself forward as an arch Leftist who is locked in combat with the Right, then knock it off.

Obviously there are problems everywhere, but degrees of problem do make a difference. Please direct me to the James O'Keefe of the Center or the Left. Please show me the other presidents who promoted conspiracy theories the way Trump did. And, furthermore, let's be even clearer: it is a disservice to conservatives even to count Trump among their number. Trump is a nationalist, a demagogue, and a whole host of other bad things, but he is not a conservative. He is more alt-right than he is Right.

It is a shame that he was successful in hijacking the Republican Party, because the Republican Party of old was way too sound and respectable to suffer the fate that it is currently enduring. William F. Buckley may have been an asshole with smelly opinions, but at least he was a reasonably serious and intelligent person with actual ideas. Reagan may have been a professional performer and shallow ideologue, but he cared enough to be serious and both learn and internalize a set of ideals. George W. Bush may have been a sub-par intellect, but he was a genuine person who took his responsibilities seriously.

Trump and Trumpism are a blight on the political landscape. Sober serious Republicans know that. I didn't come up with this myself by watching MSNBC. I am not even a Democrat. I spent most of my life as a Republican and I am registered as an Independent. To me this is not a Left/Right question. This is a saving our political system from authoritarianism and corruption kind of question.

Quote:
No, I hadn't heard of Arthur Jones - or the others examples you provided (Thanks for pointing them out) but I do share Ted Cruz's clear condemnation of Jones.


Good. Now tell me why these characters are not running as Democrats or Independents.


Last edited by Kishkumen on Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 1984 in 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:32 pm 
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Ceeboo wrote:
Personally, I think there were countless reasons that he should have been eliminated from the possibility of becoming the elected President - Being a birther is on the bottom of page two of that list IMO.

I would certainly like to see the list of reasons that precede Bitherism. Regardless, there’s a subtle point being made by Kish about this, that speaks to the ludicrousness of Birtherism and yet how it was seized upon and amplified by such a large component of right-leaning voters. That this was the case speaks to what is driving the voting decisions of these people.

Although the specific birther claim itself may seem trivial, the fact of its widespread effect on and appeal to certain voters speaks to a significant problem, both for the candidate who promoted that claim and for the folks that gleefully repeated it.

ETA: looks like Kish just posted a similar response about this portion of the post.


Last edited by canpakes on Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 1984 in 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:38 pm 
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canpakes wrote:
Although the specific birther claim itself may seem trivial, the fact of its widespread affect on and appeal to certain voters speaks to a significant problem, both for the candidate who promoted that claim and for the folks that gleefully repeated it.


You put it much better than I did. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: 1984 in 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:49 pm 
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God, I'm getting freaking destroyed in this thread! (I'm out of here) :lol:

(Kish - Thanks for taking me to the woodshed your replies to me. :)


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 Post subject: Re: 1984 in 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:00 pm 
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Before you leave, Ceeboo, I’m curious about your opinion as to why the birther claim gained so much traction amongst Republican voters.


Last edited by canpakes on Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 1984 in 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
I am sorry that correctly identifying a problem within a group is somehow disqualifying to you. It shouldn't be. The issue is entirely salient within the framework of the discussion. How can we discuss the problems with rhetoric and reasoning on the Right without talking about them? I am happy to acknowledge the existence of wacky conspiracy theories on both sides of the political spectrum. I am not aware that CNN or MSNBC has given attention to conspiracy theories in the way FOX News aided and abetted Birtherism. I am not aware of a phenomenon in the Center or on the Left in which people come to rallies identifying with a particular conspiracy theory in the way Qanon has flourished in the Trump Movement.

I feel no responsibility to play the game of false equivalencies simply because hearing about the problems on your side of the political spectrum is a turn off for you.

Ceeboo wrote:
Thank God we can count of the Left for 100% of earnest and intelligent discourse.


Did I say that? No, seriously. Did I say that? Please don't put words in my mouth or make it seem like I approve of ideas I do not approve of. If this is you being flip or sarcastic, fine. But I don't agree with it. If this is you saying that I am somehow putting myself forward as an arch Leftist who is locked in combat with the Right, then knock it off.

Obviously there are problems everywhere, but degrees of problem do make a difference. Please direct me to the James O'Keefe of the Center or the Left. Please show me the other presidents who promoted conspiracy theories the way Trump did. And, furthermore, let's be even clearer: it is a disservice to conservatives even to count Trump among their number. Trump is a nationalist, a demagogue, and a whole host of other bad things, but he is not a conservative. He is more alt-right than he is Right.

It is a shame that he was successful in hijacking the Republican Party, because the Republican Party of old was way too sound and respectable to suffer the fate that it is currently enduring. William F. Buckley may have been an asshole with smelly opinions, but at least he was a reasonably serious and intelligent person with actual ideas. Reagan may have been a professional performer and shallow ideologue, but he cared enough to be serious and both learn and internalize a set of ideals. George W. Bush may have been a sub-par intellect, but he was a genuine person who took his responsibilities seriously.

Trump and Trumpism are a blight on the political landscape. Sober serious Republicans know that. I didn't come up with this myself by watching MSNBC. I am not even a Democrat. I spent most of my life as a Republican and I am registered as an Independent. To me this is not a Left/Right question. This is a saving our political system from authoritarianism and corruption kind of question.

I quoted all this just because I think it's worth repeating. Excellent post.

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 Post subject: Re: 1984 in 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:43 pm 
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Some Schmo wrote:
I quoted all this just because I think it's worth repeating. Excellent post.


Thank you, Some Schmo.


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 Post subject: Re: 1984 in 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:13 pm 
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canpakes wrote:
Before you leave, Ceeboo, I’m curious about your opinion as to why the birther claim gained so much traction amongst Republican voters.


Gracious! Insulting Trump supporters again!

Those poor, innocent people! All they did was to exercise their constitutional right to believe any obvious nonsense that proved that the black man was not really president.

Because the alternative was just too terrible to believe. You had no right to ask that of them ...

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 Post subject: Re: 1984 in 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:37 pm 
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Has anyone happened to notice that the best the right could do to attempt to delegitimize President Obama was to question his birth?

With Drumpf, you're got an entire menu of options to choose from. Where would you even start? How could you prioritize his offenses? It's a veritable smorgasbord. It's Golden Corral on crack.

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 Post subject: Re: 1984 in 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:59 pm 
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Some Schmo wrote:
It's Golden Corral on crack.

Shouldn’t that be Orange Corral?


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 Post subject: Re: 1984 in 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:01 pm 
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DarkHelmet wrote:
Ceeboo wrote:

No, I hadn't heard of Arthur Jones - or the others examples you provided (Thanks for pointing them out) but I do share Ted Cruz's clear condemnation of Jones.


Why would you trust Lyin' Ted Cruz? His dad killed Kennedy and his wife is ugly.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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