Social media sites shut down infowars

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_Some Schmo
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Re: Social media sites shut down infowars

Post by _Some Schmo »

Seriously, honor, I'm curious who you think represents the threat that Taibbi is talking about in his article. Is it the large providers themselves, or do you fear them caving to government, like Taibbi suggested? And if so, who in government? How are both sides going to simultaneously control the narrative any more than they already are?
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_honorentheos
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Re: Social media sites shut down infowars

Post by _honorentheos »

Some Schmo wrote:Seriously, honor, I'm curious who you think represents the threat that Taibbi is talking about in his article. Is it the large providers themselves, or do you fear them caving to government, like Taibbi suggested? And if so, who in government? How are both sides going to simultaneously control the narrative any more than they already are?

Prior to Trump, if I were asked what I thought the most significant threat to democracy was I would have answered it was money in politics. And that isn't a partisan issue. As you know, the American political system isn't built on the idea we can get saints for Presidents and a choir of angels in congress. Instead, the system is built up acknowledging that if such were possible, we wouldn't need government or checks and balances. But because we're dealing with human beings we have a system that requires pitting interests against each other.

When it comes to the new public square where the venues for expression are also corporations, we have the worst of possible worlds right now. As Taibbi points out, the corporations are uniquely exempted from responsibility for the content they may host which differs from traditional media venues. Facebook or Google financially benefit from eyeballs on ads that are attracted to crazy talk like Jones claiming the Sandy Hook families were paid actors or the US will erupt into civil war on the 4th of July. To them, we as users aren't customers consuming a product they are producing. We're the product they are selling to their actual customers who are the people buying ad space or time. And they fear regulation that would interfere with this, which gives the government leverage. The Taibbi article tells us that this leverage is being used to have voices silenced in the public square. Maybe the ones being silenced are a danger to the public interest, maybe they are a danger to someone else's interest. Who knows?

And that's the issue here. I don't have a problem with regulation of the speech in the new public square to police dangerous behavior any more than I have an issue with physical police keeping the peace. But I do have a problem when this policing is not done with transparency and due process that is accountable to the public is some way to ensure it isn't being abused. There's a reason to believe any process that is based on leverage and quid pro quo (we'll pull the people you want just so long as you don't start regulating us) is ripe for corruption. It doesn't matter which party is in control. Democrats aren't inherently good people. Republicans aren't inherently bad people. They're all people, and promised the Ring of Gyges are more likely to fall prey to corruption than when their behavior is kept out in the light of day.
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_Some Schmo
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Re: Social media sites shut down infowars

Post by _Some Schmo »

honorentheos wrote:And that's the issue here. I don't have a problem with regulation of the speech in the new public square to police dangerous behavior any more than I have an issue with physical police keeping the peace. But I do have a problem when this policing is not done with transparency and due process that is accountable to the public is some way to ensure it isn't being abused. There's a reason to believe any process that is based on leverage and quid pro quo (we'll pull the people you want just so long as you don't start regulating us) is ripe for corruption. It doesn't matter which party is in control. Democrats aren't inherently good people. Republicans aren't inherently bad people. They're all people, and promised the Ring of Gyges are more likely to fall prey to corruption than when their behavior is kept out in the light of day.

These are all fair points, but I guess I take a little comfort in knowing that these companies have market concerns, and the people consuming their product will have a say in what they can and can't restrict, to a degree.

The other side of that coin is that we are already at the mercy of government corruption. The article felt a tad alarmist to me, given that the kind of thing he's talking about has always been a risk to any country (governments restricting the flow of information to its citizens).

If we're worried about authoritarian regimes (and we should be - I don't dispute that), Drumpf is a far more imminent threat than what Google and Facebook do.
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_canpakes
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Re: Social media sites shut down infowars

Post by _canpakes »

Honor, this is a very well-written and thought-provoking response. But in this situation with Jones, isn’t Apple and Google reacting against their economic best interest in the short-term, at least? And given that an important component of the free market and everyday capitalism is the need to fracture and divide the market based on perceived social status, how do we achieve what you are hinting is needed?
_honorentheos
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Re: Social media sites shut down infowars

Post by _honorentheos »

Some Schmo wrote:
honorentheos wrote:And that's the issue here. I don't have a problem with regulation of the speech in the new public square to police dangerous behavior any more than I have an issue with physical police keeping the peace. But I do have a problem when this policing is not done with transparency and due process that is accountable to the public is some way to ensure it isn't being abused. There's a reason to believe any process that is based on leverage and quid pro quo (we'll pull the people you want just so long as you don't start regulating us) is ripe for corruption. It doesn't matter which party is in control. Democrats aren't inherently good people. Republicans aren't inherently bad people. They're all people, and promised the Ring of Gyges are more likely to fall prey to corruption than when their behavior is kept out in the light of day.

These are all fair points, but I guess I take a little comfort in knowing that these companies have market concerns, and the people consuming their product will have a say in what they can and can't restrict, to a degree.

The other side of that coin is that we are already at the mercy of government corruption. The article felt a tad alarmist to me, given that the kind of thing he's talking about has always been a risk to any country (governments restricting the flow of information to its citizens).

If we're worried about authoritarian regimes (and we should be - I don't dispute that), Drumpf is a far more imminent threat than what Google and Facebook do.

That's how crap gets bad. We have a tiger in front of us that prevents us from keeping an eye on what the wolves behind us are doing. Or even worse, we imagine the wolves behind us are helping deter the tiger from pouncing so it's to our benefit to be caught between a tiger and pack of wolves.

Democracy dies in darkness, as the Post says. That doesn't just mean it gets murdered openly in White House press briefings. The processes matter. A lot.
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_honorentheos
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Re: Social media sites shut down infowars

Post by _honorentheos »

canpakes wrote:Honor, this is a very well-written and thought-provoking response. But in this situation with Jones, isn’t Apple and Google reacting against their economic best interest in the short-term, at least? And given that an important component of the free market and everyday capitalism is the need to fracture and divide the market based on perceived social status, how do we achieve what you are hinting is needed?

The problem is that it was a quid pro quo to keep the government from regulating them. Capitalism isn't incorruptible. It's the opposite. Corruption that leads to financial benefits is rewarded. Moneyed interests have been able to largely direct our democracy for a reason.

I want transparency and due process. And public accountability.
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_Some Schmo
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Re: Social media sites shut down infowars

Post by _Some Schmo »

honorentheos wrote:That's how crap gets bad. We have a tiger in front of us that prevents us from keeping an eye on what the wolves behind us are doing. Or even worse, we imagine the wolves behind us are helping deter the tiger from pouncing so it's to our benefit to be caught between a tiger and pack of wolves.

Democracy dies in darkness, as the Post says. That doesn't just mean it gets murdered openly in White House press briefings. The processes matter. A lot.

So I was right. We're already screwed no matter what.

Of course, I already felt that way given right wing denial of climate change. Pretty sure we're only a few millennia away from god giving cockroaches dominion over the Earth.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_honorentheos
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Re: Social media sites shut down infowars

Post by _honorentheos »

Some Schmo wrote:Pretty sure we're only a few millennia away from god giving cockroaches dominion over the Earth.

I'm pretty sure 2018 became the year we will stop talking about the coming effects of climate change and begin referring to, "Since climate change, ..."

It's been insane watching the world burn, regular temps being 10 degrees over normal, scientific reports showing in real time how human-activity influenced the probability the current heat waves were going to occur, and having it hardly make a dent in the news reporting...
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_Some Schmo
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Re: Social media sites shut down infowars

Post by _Some Schmo »

honorentheos wrote:It's been insane watching the world burn, regular temps being 10 degrees over normal, scientific reports showing in real time how human-activity influenced the probability the current heat waves were going to occur, and having it hardly make a dent in the news reporting...

This is what I worry about. It's almost at the point now where people are tired of trying to convince others what's in humanity's best interest, and don't want to bring it up. It's like the gun debate. People with their misinformation and BS stories are exhausting to keep fighting. It doesn't matter what you say, what the evidence says... they will whine, thrash and moan until you think to yourself, "Fine. Let's do nothing and just kill ourselves. At least I won't have to listen to your BS anymore."
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
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