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 Post subject: Kavanaugh Selected. What is your opposition?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:31 pm 
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Just want to see the IPhone PHDs to state their objections to this selection before the talking points eliminate your thinking. He was hired to teach at Harvard by Elena Kagan. So what’s wrong with is superb justice?

[However, I suspect Shades will not allow this post to see sunshine for several days given past history]

Posted 7-9-18 at 9:31 pm eastern time.


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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh Selected. What is your opposition?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:23 pm 
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Brett Kavanaugh: Washington insider has said presidents should be shielded from litigation while in office

Swamp anyone? Trump appoints the one guy who is most likely to get him off the hook if he's indicted and no one on the Right sees a conflict of interest here?

Quote:
“Having seen first-hand how complex and difficult that job is,” he wrote, “I believe it vital that the President be able to focus on his never-ending tasks with as few distractions as possible.” He acknowledged that blocking litigation would suggest the President was “above the law,” but he added that “the point is not to put the President above the law or to eliminate checks on the President, but simply to defer litigation and investigations until the President is out of office.”


Quote:
Kavanaugh has emerged as an outspoken champion of unitary executive theory: the justification of what is effectively unchecked presidential power over the executive branch.

Kavanaugh has argued that a president shouldn’t be burdened by lawsuits, investigations and indictments, a position that may be of great interest to the White House as special counsel Robert Mueller continues his investigation into Russian meddling in the 2016 election.

“Whether the Constitution allows indictment of a sitting President is debatable,” Kavanaugh wrote in a 1998 article that argued that impeachment, not criminal prosecution, is the appropriate mechanism to hold a president accountable for criminal acts. About a decade later, Kavanaugh wrote in a Minnesota Law Review article that he believed a president “should be excused from some of the burdens of ordinary citizenship while serving in office.” He also argued that an indictment of a president would “cripple the federal government,” rendering it “unable to function with credibility” domestically and internationally. Such an outcome, Kavanaugh said, “would ill serve the public interest, especially in times of financial or national security crisis.”


Trump looks out for Trump first and foremost, this much should be obvious. It shouldn't take a genius to figure out why Trump appointed the guy most likely to be instrumental in his continued violation of the emoluments clause and act with impunity as the dictator he so wants to be. If the tables were turned and Obama's head were on the chopping block and he had just appointed the one judge who believes the President is above reproach, the Right Wingers would be marching on Washington with their guns loaded. But because it is one of their own, well.... we know the drill. Nothing to see here, move along...


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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh Selected. What is your opposition?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:04 am 
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Kevin Graham wrote:
Brett Kavanaugh: Washington insider has said presidents should be shielded from litigation while in office

Swamp anyone? Trump appoints the one guy who is most likely to get him off the hook if he's indicted and no one on the Right sees a conflict of interest here?

Under what scenario do you believe Supreme Court would be in a position to get Trump "off the hook"? Impeachments and any subsequent criminal proceedings would be Senate business, would it not?

Kevin Graham wrote:
Kavanaugh wrote in a 1998 article that argued that impeachment, not criminal prosecution, is the appropriate mechanism to hold a president accountable for criminal acts. ....

So, this is the argument he is making in regards to Bill Clinton (impeached 1999), correct? Who embraced this argument back then? and who disagreed?

Point being, this is a complicated Constitutional notion that has been debated since the very first meeting of the Senate. But as complex as it may, or may not, be - it would first be in the hands of the Senate to prosecute, not Supreme Court.

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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh Selected. What is your opposition?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:23 am 
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subgenius wrote:
Point being, this is a complicated Constitutional notion that has been debated since the very first meeting of the Senate.


Which is why having a swing vote on the Supreme Court is so important to Trump. This idea that a sitting President cannot be indicted is based on interpretation, and one that would certainly be determined with Kavanaugh as the deciding vote on the bench if Mueller were to pursue an indictment of Trump.

Kavanaugh's views changed after the Clinton fiasco and he said that after observing the trials of George W. Bush he no longer believes a President should be held to the same legal standards as ordinary citizens.

Also, it is a foregone conclusion that this corrupt Senate is never going to impeach one of their own. They would have done it already.


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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh Selected. What is your opposition?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:09 am 
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Kevin Graham wrote:
Swamp anyone? Trump appoints the one guy who is most likely to get him off the hook if he's indicted and no one on the Right sees a conflict of interest here?

Kavanaugh's position is without controversy and would be affirmed by every justice on the court today. Supreme Court has long upheld that the executive possesses plenary powers which are beyond judicial review. The only remedy for removing a President is Congress and impeachment. Which is a political remedy, not a legal one. Which means it can happen for any reason, just or not. You simply need a political majority to make it happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh Selected. What is your opposition?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:20 am 
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This website called it before Kavanaugh was announced:

The One Thing That Shows Brett Kavanaugh Is the Clear Choice as Trump’s Supreme Court Pick

Fox's Napolitano says Trump can be indicted: 'The president is not above the law'

Yes, You Can Indict the President

Presidents can be indicted


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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh Selected. What is your opposition?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:21 am 
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Kevin Graham wrote:
subgenius wrote:
Point being, this is a complicated Constitutional notion that has been debated since the very first meeting of the Senate.


Which is why having a swing vote on the Supreme Court is so important to Trump.

That is not why.

Kevin Graham wrote:
This idea that a sitting President cannot be indicted is based on interpretation, and one that would certainly be determined with Kavanaugh as the deciding vote on the bench if Mueller were to pursue an indictment of Trump.

But it is not an "idea". Impeachment is, in fact, and indictment. But instead of a Grand Jury, it is the Senate. Then, as with an indictment, criminal charges can be pursued.
If the Senate removes President, then appropriate authority has jurisdiction or Senate may prosecute, etc.

Kevin Graham wrote:
Kavanaugh's views changed after the Clinton fiasco and he said that after observing the trials of George W. Bush he no longer believes a President should be held to the same legal standards as ordinary citizens.

He can have that view, but a legal opinion is much different inasmuch as facts matter. Ergo his different view for Clinton and for Bush.
Regardless, Supreme Court would not determine if a President can be impeached, since impeachment is already Constitutional.

Kevin Graham wrote:
Also, it is a foregone conclusion that this corrupt Senate is never going to impeach one of their own. They would have done it already.

Arguable since currently there is not enough actual and credible evidence to proceed - emotional hair fires doth not an impeachment make.
(losing faith in the #BlueWave ?)

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Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent


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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh Selected. What is your opposition?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:22 am 
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Kevin Graham wrote:

More indications that Supreme Court is irrelevant on that matter - so what would be the remaining opposition?

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Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent


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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh Selected. What is your opposition?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:47 am 
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subgenius wrote:
That is not why.


It most certainly is.

subgenius wrote:
But it is not an "idea". Impeachment is, in fact, and indictment. But instead of a Grand Jury, it is the Senate. Then, as with an indictment, criminal charges can be pursued. If the Senate removes President, then appropriate authority has jurisdiction or Senate may prosecute, etc.


All of this is beside the point. The point being that if Mueller were to pursue indictment then this thing would to to Supreme Court. Going on and on about what the Senate can (but won't) do is irrelevant.

subgenius wrote:
He can have that view, but a legal opinion is much different inasmuch as facts matter. Ergo his different view for Clinton and for Bush. Regardless, Supreme Court would not determine if a President can be impeached, since impeachment is already Constitutional.


Who said anything about impeachment?

subgenius wrote:
Arguable since currently there is not enough actual and credible evidence to proceed - emotional hair fires doth not an impeachment make.(losing faith in the #BlueWave ?)


There is plenty credible evidence, which is why Republicans don't even try to defend his blatant violation of the emoluments clause. It is because this is really beyond dispute. There is no doubt he is making big money off his international hotel, doubling his room rates while steering diplomatic delegations there along with his own government funded entourage. He spends more time at MAra-Lago than he does the White House, which effectively funnels more tax payer funds to his coffers. His tariffs on Chinese imports that exempt products sold by his daughter, etc, etc. The evidence is all over the place that he has violated this clause of the Constitution.


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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh Selected. What is your opposition?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:56 am 
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subgenius wrote:
More indications that Supreme Court is irrelevant on that matter - so what would be the remaining opposition?


The supreme court is only irrelevant until it isn't, which is why Trump, constantly acting like someone who is guilty, is needing a trump card (pun intended) with Kavanaugh. A contingency plan in case Mueller seeks to indict.

It just strikes me as funny that with the way these folks on the Right think about government conspiracies, they don't even consider the possibility that Trump could be thinking along these lines. Any Alex Jones/Sean Hannity equivalent on the Left (none seem to exist) would have already pushed a theory that makes Justice Kennedy complicit in all of this... "I don't know if I could ever tarnish my legacy by giving you a get out of jail free card, Donald. However, this I can do for you. I can retire so you can put in a very young person who would be glad to start a legacy based on that kind of loyalty."


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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh Selected. What is your opposition?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:00 am 
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It's possible the Supreme Court may have to answer the question of the legality of criminal indictment of Trump at some point, and it's possible that Kavanaugh's position on this affected Trump's choice. He is but one justice though. I don't think that's likely to be the primary basis for his decision making, nor is that the main reason you should like or not like the appointment.

I think it's more likely that Kavanaugh was a negotiated pick to make Kennedy comfortable with retiring, which would be scandalous given the cases Kennedy was deciding over the past term, but it's really a small issue in the big scheme of things. Criminal indictment or no, what brings Trump down or not is going to be whether he can be successfully impeached in Congress and convicted in the Senate. Meanwhile, Kavanaugh is going to have a much more far-reaching ideological impact on the United States Over the next 20-30 years.

Liberals fantasize about winning Congress and the Presidency in 2020. I'm fairly certain that if they did so with commanding majorities and passed a bunch of progressive dream legislation - say medicare for all, college tuition for all, and federal banning of right work - the Supreme Court is likely to be ideologically constituted to strike it all down on a partisan basis with a thin legal pretext. Roe vs. Wade sucks up a lot of oxygen, but there's a whole religious right wishlist that's on the cusp of getting through ranging from entrenching legal discrimination of gays, to teaching religious apologetics like creationism in public schools, to gutting voting rights. Maybe they should be worrying about what to do about that instead?

Of course, I care about things like 4th amendment jurisprudence and the police state that cable news isn't going to talk about at all, but if you're going to talk about hot button issues that can get some attention, it might be wise to spend a little less time on this narrow issue where Kavanaugh isn't probably going to be Trump's saving grace anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh Selected. What is your opposition?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:37 am 
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Quote:
...the crime of obstruction, it cannot be established by lawful exercises of executive prerogatives. A president, of course, may not subvert an investigation by unlawful actions — e.g., by conspiring to suborn perjury or bribe witnesses (cf. Clinton, Nixon). Illegal acts could amount to actionable obstruction. But the president’s dismissal of subordinate executive officials (such as the FBI director), and his exercise of prosecutorial discretion (by merely weighing in on whether a person — here, Flynn — deserves to be investigated), are constitutional acts that are not judicially reviewable. Executive prerogatives that are not subject to judicial review may not be subjected to judicial review by indirection, under the guise of a prosecution.

This is not to say that lawful presidential actions are beyond reproach. Acts that do not transgress the criminal law may nevertheless be despicable. It is not a crime, for example, for a president to use the Oval Office for extramarital trysts with an intern, or to lie to the public about people being able to keep their health insurance. Nor am I contending that lawful presidential actions are unreviewable: The president can be impeached — just as the president has plenary power to fire an executive subordinate, Congress has plenary power to determine what constitutes high crimes and misdemeanors. If Congress believes that the president’s lawful exercise of an executive prerogative was corruptly motivated, Congress may remove the president. If, for example, there was a concrete basis to suspect the president of a crime, and the president pardoned his accomplices in return for their silence, the pardons would stand but Congress could impeach the president for abusing his power to conceal his misconduct.

But impeachment is not prosecution. If Congress believes that Trump has committed impeachable offenses, it is free to open an impeachment inquiry. Mueller is not Congress. He does not report to Congress. He is a subordinate officer of the executive branch whose job is to investigate and (if merited) prosecute crimes specified by his Justice Department superiors. A special counsel is not supposed to be Congress’s lawyer for the purpose of investigating non-crimes that might nevertheless constitute impeachable abuses of power.


https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/05/ ... interview/

Is a president above the law? No. Can a president be blindly subpoenaed? No. The source of the confusion here is that there are conceivably situations where a President could be indicted or subpoenaed. However, the present situation simply isn't one of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh Selected. What is your opposition?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:05 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
I think it's more likely that Kavanaugh was a negotiated pick to make Kennedy comfortable with retiring, which would be scandalous given the cases Kennedy was deciding over the past term, but it's really a small issue in the big scheme of things.
Huh. Coincidentally, NBC news is reporting something like that actually happened, so I should clarify I'm not saying I think that happened. I was merely offering this as something I thought more likely than the "Trump picked him for personal legal protection" theory. I'd need to see more evidence than what is out there to believe that actually happened.


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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh Selected. What is your opposition?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:26 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
Huh. Coincidentally, NBC news is reporting something like that actually happened, so I should clarify I'm not saying I think that happened. I was merely offering this as something I thought more likely than the "Trump picked him for personal legal protection" theory. I'd need to see more evidence than what is out there to believe that actually happened.
I'm not sure it would be as shady as it might sound that Kennedy picked his own successor in exchange for stepping down. But it shouldn't surprise anyone if he made a recommendation or two in his conversations with Trump. Wasn't Kavanaugh added to the "pre-selected" Trump list back in the fall?

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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh Selected. What is your opposition?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:45 am 
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I'm cool with Kavanaugh.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh Selected. What is your opposition?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:59 am 
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Kevin Graham wrote:
subgenius wrote:
More indications that Supreme Court is irrelevant on that matter - so what would be the remaining opposition?


The supreme court is only irrelevant until it isn't, which is why Trump, constantly acting like someone who is guilty, is needing a trump card (pun intended) with Kavanaugh. A contingency plan in case Mueller seeks to indict.

I feel like you are just making this stuff up as you go along.
1. What indication(s) do you have that would lead you to believe that charges by Mueller would elevate through the courts all the way to Supreme Court ?
2. What indication(s) do you have that would lead you to believe that Supreme Court would actually "hear" whatever case you imagine coming up from #1?
3. What indication(s) do you have that would lead you to believe that, at least, 4 other Justices would align themselves with the President and/or Kavanugh?
4. What indication(s) do you have that would lead you to believe that the circumstance of whatever circumstances got through 1 and 2 above would merit Kavanaugh to hold fast to his already "evolving" view on this matter in the general sense?

Apart from these questions, and due to lack of any objections based on substance, it can now be assumed that your only opposition to Kavanaugh is a fantasy (aka whatever Maddow tells me).

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Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent


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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh Selected. What is your opposition?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:12 pm 
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Xenophon wrote:
EAllusion wrote:
Huh. Coincidentally, NBC news is reporting something like that actually happened, so I should clarify I'm not saying I think that happened. I was merely offering this as something I thought more likely than the "Trump picked him for personal legal protection" theory. I'd need to see more evidence than what is out there to believe that actually happened.
I'm not sure it would be as shady as it might sound that Kennedy picked his own successor in exchange for stepping down. But it shouldn't surprise anyone if he made a recommendation or two in his conversations with Trump. Wasn't Kavanaugh added to the "pre-selected" Trump list back in the fall?


The scandalous part would be that this negotiating would be occurring while him being the deciding vote on cases like whether Trump's self-proclaimed discriminatory motivations are relevant to legality of his travel ban. There's too much potential for inappropriate influence there for that to at all be acceptable.


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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh Selected. What is your opposition?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:34 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
The scandalous part would be that this negotiating would be occurring while him being the deciding vote on cases like whether Trump's self-proclaimed discriminatory motivations are relevant to legality of his travel ban. There's too much potential for inappropriate influence there for that to at all be acceptable.
I might have been unclear here. I'm agreeing with you that I don't see this as some vast conspiracy where Kennedy only agreed to step down if he picked the replacement or something. Just that it wouldn't surprise me if he offered up a name or two after deciding to step down. After my post I did look it up and it appears Kavanaugh was added to the short list of Trump's back in November so I think that stretches any kind of theory of Kennedy determining the next nominee as dubious at best.

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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh Selected. What is your opposition?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:35 pm 
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Xenophon wrote:
EAllusion wrote:
The scandalous part would be that this negotiating would be occurring while him being the deciding vote on cases like whether Trump's self-proclaimed discriminatory motivations are relevant to legality of his travel ban. There's too much potential for inappropriate influence there for that to at all be acceptable.
I might have been unclear here. I'm agreeing with you that I don't see this as some vast conspiracy where Kennedy only agreed to step down if he picked the replacement or something. Just that it wouldn't surprise me if he offered up a name or two after deciding to step down. After my post I did look it up and it appears Kavanaugh was added to the short list of Trump's back in November so I think that stretches any kind of theory of Kennedy determining the next nominee as dubious at best.


Kennedy has been rumored to mulling retirement since well before November, so I don't think that weighs one way or the other.


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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh Selected. What is your opposition?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:46 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
Kennedy has been rumored to mulling retirement since well before November, so I don't think that weighs one way or the other.
Touché.

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"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens


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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh Selected. What is your opposition?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:52 pm 
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Someone on Reddit was nice enough to list bullet points on some of his positions on, uh, stuff:

https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/ ... ?context=3

- Doc


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