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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:06 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
lol

Even Trump's own right hand man, Steve Bannon said their meeting with Russians was nothing short of treasonous.


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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:11 pm 
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Chap wrote:
My experience suggests that whether or not there is an unbridgeable divide between me and somebody else IRL is often largely up to me.

Message boards have little to do with lived reality in the presence of flesh and blood people going about their lives. Smilies are no substitute for smiles.

Few times, if ever, have I read a post that is as intellectual and as on point here as this one.


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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:47 pm 
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Last edited by Ceeboo on Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:28 pm 
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Ceeboo wrote:
It's not an external enemy that is preventing America to unite (neither the one you suggest here or any other external enemy on planet earth, past or present). It is, without question, an unbridgeable divide that consists of American citizens alone.

We are not overcome by an external enemy. Not the one you suggest. Nor any any other that you haven't suggested. We have been overcome by a gaping divide amongst ourselves. It is internal.


Don't be too discouraged, Ceeboo. There are times in the life of a nation when deep and bitter division is a sign of good things to come.

Just imagine, for instance, that at the time when the US was split between abolitionists and slavers someone had said 'can't we all get along together?' The right and patriotic answer would have been 'No. Human decency cannot be reconciled with a system in which white human beings have the right to own black human beings. There can be no reconciliation between good and evil.' And in the long run it is good that people felt that way, and that the side won that wanted to free the enslaved black people.

Do you think there is a basic conflict of principle between Trump voters and the opposition? if, so, then now you have to work out who is on the right side. Who do you think that is, on the whole? Or do you think the conflict is illusory?

Please tell us.

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That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:44 pm 
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Ceeboo wrote:
Hey Jersey Girl!
Jersey Girl wrote:
If it weren't for the fact that there are so many comments on this thread that consist of folks trying to out-Trump Trump


I don't get it?

I would be interested in your opinion (no worries if you would rather not offer it) on how wide the political divide is in America. Do you believe the divide is unbridgeable?

No one did more to enlarge and perpetuate that political devide than Donald J. Trump, and he is by far the greatest single obstacle to bridging it.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:58 pm 
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Last edited by Ceeboo on Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:49 pm 
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Ceeboo wrote:
Gunnar wrote:
and he is by far the greatest single obstacle to bridging it.


Nonsense!

Supposing it can be bridged (which it absolutely can not be at this point IMO) - The greatest single obstacle is the complete and total lack of tolerance that is exhibited by a shockingly large number of American citizens towards an equally shocking large number of their fellow American citizens.

Ceeboo, do you interpret that the political figurehead for one of those two sides is doing anything to help bridge that divide?

Do you think that ‘leftists’ are the sole cause of this divide?


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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:01 pm 
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Last edited by Ceeboo on Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:14 pm 
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Ceeboo wrote:
canpakes wrote:
Ceeboo, do you interpret that the political figurehead for one of those two sides is doing anything to help bridge that divide?


The "political figure-head" you describe is not a "political figure-head for one of those two sides." He is the President Of The United States. It doesn't matter if you personally approve (or if I personally approve) - Among other things, this is how a democracy works. There is an election and there is a winner. Another glaring example that provides additional weight to an unbridgeable divide? yep!

Call it what you will. But I’m still going to ask the same question: What do you see him doing to help bridge that divide?


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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:34 pm 
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Last edited by Ceeboo on Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:39 pm 
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Ceeboo wrote:
canpakes wrote:
Ceeboo, do you interpret that the political figurehead for one of those two sides is doing anything to help bridge that divide?

The "political figure-head" you describe is not a "political figure-head for one of those two sides." He is the President Of The United States. It doesn't matter if you personally approve (or if I personally approve) - Among other things, this is how a democracy works. There is an election and there is a winner. Another glaring example that provides additional weight to an unbridgeable divide? yep!

Help me understand how democracy works here. A person becomes president and what happens exactly? The president of the United States functions as the figurehead leader of the political party he is from. It doesn't have to be this way, but this has been so for as long as you've been alive. In that function, the President long has been expected to attempt to bridge political divides as a sort of chief diplomat for his party in order to reinforce civil political engagement. Obama's presidency in many ways was one failed attempt after another at striking this tone. Donald Trump's hasty acceptance speech on the night of the election that was written for him struck this tone. He then immediately went to work setting that on fire.

You are refuting this point by arguing what now? The simplest reading would be that you misunderstood what was being said and are just saying, "He has legal authority to be president of the United States, not just Republicans." Duh, but that would egregiously misunderstand the point you are responding to. Or maybe you think the President becomes the figure-head leader of both political parties? No, that would be a nutty thing to think. Or maybe you think presidents carry authority such that they become above partisan criticisms? No, that would be so antithetical to the ideals of American democracy that you can't possibly think that. I think of Justice Robert Jackson's famous lines in West Virginia Board of Education vs. Barnett.

I don't know. There doesn't seem to be a reading of you here that doesn't come out ridiculous. Care to enlighten us?


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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:44 pm 
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Ceeboo wrote:
canpakes wrote:
Call it what you will.

Call it what I will?

About 97% of the reasonable, rational and responsible adults in America would completely reject your intentionally divisive label of "political figurehead for one side" - and label him the President Of The United States. Why? Because that's what he is. An individual's personal feelings about this reality, no matter what they happen to be, do not change the facts.

OK. Toss out that part of the statement. I’m cool with that.

Now, what about the question ... what do you see Trump doing to help bridge that divide?


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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:44 pm 
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Ceeboo wrote:
canpakes wrote:
Call it what you will.


Call it what I will?

About 97% of the reasonable, rational and responsible adults in America would completely reject your intentionally divisive label of "political figurehead for one side" - and label him the President Of The United States. Why? Because that's what he is. An individual's personal feelings about this reality, no matter what they happen to be, do not change the facts.


Uh, would 97% of Americans fail freshman American government class? Maybe. But what he's saying isn't at all controversial. The President is often thought of has having to wear many different hats in their role as President of the United States - commander and chief, chief diplomat, head of the executive bureaucracy, etc. One of those is the defacto leader of the political party he is from. It could be a Congressional leader or some private citizen, but it never is and the President, including this current one, is always treated as the figurehead leader of the party he is from. There are no exceptions in your lifetime. That's why the popularity of the President has such a huge gravitational pull on the fate of down-ballot members of his party.


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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:57 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:03 pm 
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Ceeboo wrote:
Okay I'll try but please consider who it is that I'm trying to help understand.

Sure. My academic knowledge of political science was a sham. Please continue.

Quote:
They move into the White House, they construct a Presidential Cabinet and (Pay very close attention here because this is where most of your confusion rests) about 97-98% of human beings refer to him/her as the President Of The United States Of America. Why? Because he/she entered a political race to become the President Of The United States Of America and (pay attention again, this part is critical) he/she won the race and became the constitutionally ELECTED President Of The United States Of America.

I see. This strengthens option number 1 in my list. You see, the person who becomes "PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA@!!!!@@@!!!@@" is also, bear with me here, considered the figurehead leader of one political party. That function might have something to say about his or her civic responsibilities for bridging political divides given the inherent conflict of legally being president for all while being a chief representative of the interests of one political party.

Quote:
I have been trying for a long time now, Unfortunately, no success. It's an unbridgeable divide.

Indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:04 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:10 pm 
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Oh no!

https://www.scholastic.com/teachers/art ... president/

Scholastic is in on the conspiracy of 2-3% of the country to bamboozle us with fancy talk about the president functioning as a sort of defacto party head. In fairness, this material is aimed at anywhere from 3rd grade up, so it's high level stuff.

This Cliff Notes crash course in American government is at least seemingly aimed at 9th graders or so:

https://www.cliffsnotes.com/study-guide ... -president


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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:14 pm 
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Last edited by Ceeboo on Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:17 pm 
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Ceeboo wrote:
EAllusion wrote:
Sure. My academic knowledge of political science was a sham. Please continue.


I didn't suggest it was a sham. On the contrary. It is precisely "your academic knowledge of political science" that has prevented you from possessing wisdom.

For example: When it comes to your strong positions on things like Social Justice and/or racism, your extremely deep "knowledge" of these things have left you with exactly no wisdom concerning these very same things.

Comprende?


You sound very wise. How wise do I need to get before I realize that when someone notes the President of the United States functions as a figurehead leader of his or her party, I need to come in hot and point out that, ACTUALLY THEY ARE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNTRY, BUB! ?


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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:18 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:22 pm 
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Ceeboo wrote:

Look - More knowledge signaling!
My linking introductory American government information taught to kids who can't be counted on to understand fractions definitely was me boasting about a limitless expanse of knowledge.


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