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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:28 am 
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Ceeboo wrote:
This post to me, added to the rest of your posts to me, confirms your poor vision - Among other things.

Let me ask you a self-serving loaded question now: Have you stopped beating your wife?


I sympathize with cp’s confusion, even though I do not like the way the question is framed. What confuses me is that I was told that Bill Clinton was a sleaze ball who had besmirched the presidency and therefore had to go. I think that Bill Clinton was a sleaze ball, and it may have been a good idea for him to resign. He is a sleaze ball to this day.

The same people who went apoplectic over Bill Clinton pulled the lever for Trump, and I have to say that this looks pretty hypocritical on its face.

That said, the imminent confirmation of Kavanaugh is tempting to embrace as a kind of “ends justifies the means” vindication of the Evangelical support for Trump. Many EVs voted for Trump for Supreme Court and by golly he is delivering for them. But we might argue that it was at the cost of their moral credibility.


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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:52 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
But we might argue that it was at the cost of their moral credibility.


I find it incredibly hard to believe you believe in moral credibility when it comes to politics, especially given your professional background where politics serve an end, either personal or policy wise. If you believe an EV gives two craps what a 'godless, baby-killing, homosexual loving, Christian hating' Liberal thinks I'm gobsmacked. Also, God works in mysterious ways and God uses imperfect people to further His ends. It's akin to a Mormon caring what an 'antimormon' thinks of Governor Herbert or Mike Lee. It works both ways, and the bridge building people talk about is a fantasy.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:58 am 
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Some Schmo wrote:
I watched a brief clip of Rubin talking about this with Joe Rogan. It was pretty funny to watch Rogan tell him, dude, without regulation, building construction quality would go to ____.

"Regulations" is one of those scare words on the right which they seem to equate with squashing freedom. They don't seem to understand how much of it is consumer protection. When I go to the gas station, for instance, I can feel good that the amount of gas it says I'm buying actually ends up in my tank, because there are regulations surrounding the accuracy of gas pumps.

I've run small businesses, so I know what people are complaining about with respect to regulations, but again, this isn't a bad thing just because. Some regulations are good, some aren't.


Large companies will support regulations that make it difficult for small businesses to compete. In certain areas, like minimum wage, I think it would be better to have a tiered system of laws and regulations. Once a business passes a certain threshold of size and/or revenue, it would be required to follow tougher rules. Of course, in other critical areas regulations should apply the same to all.


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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:01 am 
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I just wanted to add to the thread that this morning I saw a spider that looked kind of like Ted Kennedy. That was pretty terrifying.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:02 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
I find it incredibly hard to believe you believe in moral credibility when it comes to politics, especially given your professional background where politics serve an end, either personal or policy wise. If you believe an EV gives two craps what a 'godless, baby-killing, homosexual loving, Christian hating' Liberal thinks I'm gobsmacked. Also, God works in mysterious ways and God uses imperfect people to further His ends. It's akin to a Mormon caring what an 'antimormon' thinks of Governor Herbert or Mike Lee. It works both ways, and the bridge building people talk about is a fantasy.


Actually, I believe in moral credibility when it comes to politics BECAUSE of my historical knowledge, not in spite of it. People trade in moral accusations because they work. If they did not work, there would be no point and people would not do it.

In the year 64 there was a conspiracy against Nero. When the emperor’s men interrogated a military officer regarding why he participated in the plot, he inveighed against the emperor’s morality, starting with the fact that Nero killed his mother.


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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:07 am 
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Last edited by Ceeboo on Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:16 am 
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Here’s the thing, Ceeboo. We were mistaken. I was not aware that you did not vote. Now we know. If you were to argue in favor of Trump, then people would assume you voted for him. That’s easily corrected. I told you I did not like the way the question was framed. But I would suppose that as a Christian you would be concerned about the morality of a politician. Maybe you are not. Again, all that is required is clarification.

Yes, it is true that political conversations are increasingly difficult, and maybe the returns have diminished too far. My primary worry is that you would just leave and we would not see you here again.


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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:46 am 
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Last edited by Ceeboo on Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:11 am 
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Ceeboo wrote:
1. It infers that I voted for Trump
2. It infers that Trump's values is what I based my vote on.
3. It not only infers that Trump earned my vote, it infers that it was his values that earned it.

Please learn what "infer" means. It is not interchangeable with "imply."

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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:43 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Actually, I believe in moral credibility when it comes to politics BECAUSE of my historical knowledge, not in spite of it. People trade in moral accusations because they work. If they did not work, there would be no point and people would not do it.


Sheesh, outside of Jimmy Carter you may never find what you're looking for. Obviously you're not naïve, but this idea we can elect a moral leader to guide an immoral or amoral electorate is, I dunno, fantastically & wantonly ignorant of reality.

I'd prefer a pragmatic leader whose ethics lead to a secure and prosperous state. Given a choice, would you choose a morally impeccable politician who leads us to ruin, or an imperfect one, who beats his wife on occasion and ____ chickens (like Some Schmo), but provides a secure and prosperous life?

I think that is how EVs viewed this election. A woman who would lead the nation into further decline, or a detestable men who would turn things around. When Liberal hypocrites complain about EV morality they forget the most depraved members of society are Leftists in their view. It's a gulf too wide to bridge.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:05 am 
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I think EV's mostly genuinely believed that moral character matters a lot in a president, but hypocritically changed their mind when it went against their voter preferences and would change it right back again if another Bill Clinton were elected.

I also think what people are taking for granted as true about Trump many EV's are skeptical about, and their assessment of just how bad it really is creates an impasse. There's a difference between Trump's character problems being that he uses crude language or it being that he's a sociopathic grifter who treats people like they are disposable.


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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:09 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
I think EV's mostly genuinely believed that moral character matters a lot in a president, but hypocritically changed their mind when it went against their voter preferences and would change it right back again if another Bill Clinton were elected.

I also think what people are taking for granted as true about Trump many EV's are skeptical are skeptical about, and their assessment of just how bad it really is creates an impasse. There's a difference between Trump's character problems being that he uses crude language and him being a sociopathic grifter who treats people like they are disposable.


The Carter administration was a forking of the ways for the EVs. They decided they'd rather have a militant Republican divorced guy over a peaceseeking Democrat Sunday School teacher. Choice noted.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:17 am 
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Well. Democrats are degenerate baby killers who are *this* close to anti-freedom communists.

A gulf too wide.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:22 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Well. Democrats are degenerate baby killers who are *this* close to anti-freedom communists.

A gulf too wide.

- Doc


Far too wide. While the Rs are ascendant they should force all libs to wear pussy hats and live in cages where they have to listen to Charlie Daniels music and are fed pork rinds. :cool:

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Last edited by Maksutov on Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:27 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
I also think what people are taking for granted as true about Trump many EV's are skeptical about, and their assessment of just how bad it really is creates an impasse.

There's no doubt about this for a lot of people, but I also can't help thinking that if EV's can convince themselves of all their religious narratives, making Drumpf "OK" should be a breeze. These people are Olympic medal holders in mental gymnastics. Filtering out reality is right in their wheelhouse.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:47 am 
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Ceeboo wrote:
But what if I did? What if I voted for Trump? Then would I join the other millions and millions of other American citizens that are being labeled as nazi, racist, xenophobic, sexist? Would I then have my values challenged/questioned because who I voted for?


You will inevitably be asked to justify your choices. All of us are. I would not assume your reasons for voting for Trump, but I might have tried to guess. I suppose I already did.

Quote:
What about the millions and millions of people who voted for Hillary? Are their values being questioned/challenged?


Of course they are. All the time. Why was there a Pizzagate conspiracy theory? The implication here was that no good person should vote for a monster like Hillary.

Quote:
Another one of those "have you stopped beating your wife" statements.


I really didn’t intend it that way. I can easily imagine reasons why a Christian might apply a different standard in certain cases. These things are not always clear cut, and I get that. I really do understand why a person might choose to vote for Trump because of Supreme Court considerations and overlook his crummy character. I don’t agree, but I can see that happening.

Quote:
Do you think JFK was morale? How about Oscar Schindler, do you think he was morale?

Please don't tell me that your suggesting that Hillary would have made for the morale champion for America. Please don't.


I do believe that character matters. But I don’t look at it in all or nothing terms. If you were to ask me whether H. Clinton or Trump was more upright in character, the choice is simple: Clinton. Obama was probably more principled than Clinton. Reagan is up there with the better people, as are the Bushes. Bill Clinton ranks low. So does Nixon. Ford was a good person. The Kennedys were very hit and miss (lots of miss). Among post WWII presidents I would place Trump dead last in terms of personal character. Nixon second to last, and Bill Clinton right above Nixon. I recognize that both Nixon and Clinton were relatively competent, but I still think their poor character had a negative impact. Trump is obviously incompetent as well as a dodgy character. Not once in his life has he ever been truly trustworthy.

But I recognize that not everyone will share my opinion. The one thing I cannot be brought to believe is that Trump is a person of good character.


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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:50 pm 
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Last edited by Ceeboo on Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:58 pm 
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Ceeboo wrote:
canpakes wrote:
Let’s approach this another way.

What were the values represented by candidate Trump that earned your vote, as opposed to candidate Clinton?


This post to me, added to the rest of your posts to me, confirms your poor vision - Among other things.

Let me ask you a self-serving loaded question now: Have you stopped beating your wife?

I take this to mean that I missed a post somewhere in which you’ve stated that you did not vote for Trump? Or should I be concluding something else?

Consider that I’m asking the question without any pre-judgment. And I’m asking it because you’ve indicated that there’s a serious difference between the ‘values of the left’ vs. ‘the values of the right’. I’m guessing that this difference translates into how you prefer to vote.

So, I’m asking for you to identify the values presented or represented by Trump that brought you to a decision to vote for him ... if you did vote for Trump. I’m assuming here that you considered Clinton to have more ‘leftist’ values and that voting for her would be untenable. We can always talk about those values represented by Clinton, too.


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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:12 pm 
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Last edited by Ceeboo on Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:17 pm 
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Ceeboo wrote:
canpakes wrote:

So, I’m asking for you to identify the values presented or represented by Trump that brought you to a decision to vote for him


I think we are done discussing things CP. No hard feelings on my end, I hope there isn't any on yours.

No hard feelings, but I honestly do not understand why we are done. Or, rather, why you are done.

What’s going on?


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 Post subject: Re: Fear Of The Left.......
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:23 pm 
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Ceeboo wrote:
I recognize that not everyone will share my opinion either. (As far as this thread goes, I recognize that exactly nobody shares my opinion) :smile:


Well...I might share some of your opinions. If it weren't for the fact that there are so many comments on this thread that consist of folks trying to out-Trump Trump, I might have said more.

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