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 Post subject: Re: Who picks your food in the USA?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:29 pm 
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canpakes wrote:
subs, is it common for agricultural workers to use strikes or collective bargaining to force their employers to pay them lower wages in any given situation? I’m just trying to determine their role in that process to a better degree.

what process are you speaking about?

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 Post subject: Re: Who picks your food in the USA?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:01 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
canpakes wrote:
subs, is it common for agricultural workers to use strikes or collective bargaining to force their employers to pay them lower wages in any given situation? I’m just trying to determine their role in that process to a better degree.

what process are you speaking about?

The process that determines the wages paid to agricultural workers.

Can you tell me if the wages of agricultural workers are being held down by their wanting to be paid less?


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 Post subject: Re: Who picks your food in the USA?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:48 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
canpakes wrote:
A. American employers have to be willing to pay a reasonable wage for this work,

B. American workers have to be willing to do this work,

C. American consumers have to be willing to pay enough to make it work.

Brown folks really aren't the actual problem in all of this.

A. Is it your position that Conservatives are solely/more responsible for wages paid for "this work"?

This wasn't a point that I was introducing, but if you want to pursue it, then just about every modern survey of farm owners and ag producers shows an exceedingly strong preference for voting Republican. You can research this yourself.

Ultimately, these guys have some control over what they pay their workers, right?


subgenius wrote:
B. American workers are not willing to do this work ?

Are you seeing a lot of Americans doing this work? Why, or why not?


subgenius wrote:
C. That American consumers are not willing to pay enough to make it work?

No, not really.

Witness the rise of Walmart, then dollar stores, over the past few decades, and how that coincided with the decline of some traditional manufacturing in the States. Americans just loooove their cheap junk from China.

Fun exercise, too - take a look at the deployment and growth of WalMart stores since that chain began. Where did the expansion take hold? Mainly in Conservative America. Same for dollar stores when they began to take over. 'Flyover Country' helped solidly set and cement the trend that contributed to their own demise.

Here's a super-short animated slide show of the growth pattern of WalMart -

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EGzHBtoVvpc


Dollar General's expansion in the early 2000's -

https://image.slidesharecdn.com/1207480 ... 1238118503


subgenius wrote:
and how are Brown folks not part of the problem? are Brown folks excluded from your A, B, and C scenarios above? Is this just a white folks problem because "only whites"?

Do you think that it was brown folks, or good 'ol White Corporate America that reshaped the supply chain and outsource/import trends that rocked the middle- and lower-class world of Americans over the last few decades?


subgenius wrote:
footnote:
A. Does a reasonable wage for this work include Union dues? Do Labor Unions that allow illegal immigrant membership have any influence on this wage and are these Unions primarily Conservative?

Does the mere presence of a union guarantee anything with regard to wages being more 'reasonable' than not?


subgenius wrote:
Does the promotion of illegal immigrant employment promote "reasonable wages"?

Who is doing the promoting? For what gain? ; )

(Oh, I know you'll answer that Democrats ship brown folks across the border to get votes, even though these guys can't vote - while ignoring the obvious immediate and real benefit to farm owners...)


subgenius wrote:
Are you aware of the several labor unions involved in "this type of work"? Is there one political party way more heavily involved in labor unions?

Again, does the mere presence of a union guarantee anything with regard to wages being more 'reasonable' than not?

Who ultimately sets wages?


subgenius wrote:
B. Let us set aside the fact that in the industrialized world, Americans work more (longer days, less vacation, retire later)...Now focusing on "this work", who are the Americans that would otherwise be doing this work?...it is usually physically demanding or menial, correct? Not usually a "skilled" worker or "professional/educated" worker...so maybe a high school education is not even required - like a young healthy person would be a good fit, correct?...it is well documented that most immigrants (especially undocumented) are men ages 18 to 39....

You're arguing that healthy young men cannot do this work?


subgenius wrote:
and let us not forget that this type of "work" is not suited to persons who are looking to put down roots in the community...the work is seasonal and relative to harvest periods, these workers are immigrants to our country but they necessarily migrate across jobs (to and fro).

Are Americans not able to be flexible or mobile in seeking work? How is it that you ascribe this limitation to folks within our own borders while expecting that poor people with virtually nothing to their name, comparatively speaking, should be capable of trekking in from half a continent and several countries away to do this work for us?


subgenius wrote:
The share of 16- to 24-year-olds saying they simply did not want to work rose from an average 29.5% in 2000 to an average 39.4% by 2015 - is this demographic primarily Conservative or Liberal? (ages 25 to 54 remained mostly unchanged and 55+ actually decreased).

Does the employer pay differently depending upon which party the worker is registered with? Or, perhaps, which country they are residents of?


subgenius wrote:
....and is there any irony in the historical fact that early Spanish colonists utilized African slaves because the Spanish colonist were unwilling to do that sort of work?

I cannot comment on the apparent laziness of Spanish colonists. I note that the same issue doesn't seem to exist with their descendants.


subgenius wrote:
C. Your notion sounds like some sort of free market mumbo jumbo - shouldn't the government just raise taxes on white people and subsidize ?

To the first part - perhaps it is just 'free market mumble jumbo' because much if what is bandied about as solid conservative market ideology is indeed 'mumbo jumbo'. To the second part - I have no idea why you're bringing taxes into this, except perhaps as some kind of ADD-prompted diversion?


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 Post subject: Re: Who picks your food in the USA?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:37 am 
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ajax18 wrote:
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So the mass of ordinary people, including Trump's core voter base, would, in your view, be perfectly happy to pay the higher food prices that would be the consequence of paying agricultural workers well enough to attract American workers to do those jobs?


Why not? We're perfectly fine with paying higher prices for European and Asian goods until we win this trade war.


While I'm sure you're fine with Trump's five year plan for economic glory, it's a bit presumptuous of you to speak for everyone. My guess is the majority of Trump voters would flat deny that they're going to experience any real economic pain from the trade war. Some, like you probably, would be correct in that assessment as things currently stand.


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 Post subject: Re: Who picks your food in the USA?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:21 am 
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canpakes wrote:
The process that determines the wages paid to agricultural workers.

yes, i understand the product, but what is the "process" you mentioned?

canpakes wrote:
Can you tell me if the wages of agricultural workers are being held down by their wanting to be paid less?

No, i can not tell you if the wages of agricultural workers are being held down or by what means.
But if we assume greed as an inescapable universal human condition, then the workers might believe their wages are always being held down whereas the employers might believe that their wages are being held "up".

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 Post subject: Re: Who picks your food in the USA?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:26 am 
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Wisconsin is being hit particularly hard by the escalation in tariffs. Some of its key exports are specifically being targeted: dairy, cranberries, ginseng, harley davidson motorcycles...

I wonder if economic pain will start to take hold before the November election and if that will move any votes. It probably going to move at least some votes, though I'm not sure if any elections will be close enough for that marginal difference to matter.


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 Post subject: Re: Who picks your food in the USA?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:40 am 
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subgenius wrote:
canpakes wrote:
The process that determines the wages paid to agricultural workers.

yes, i understand the product, but what is the "process" you mentioned?

canpakes wrote:
Can you tell me if the wages of agricultural workers are being held down by their wanting to be paid less?

No, i can not tell you if the wages of agricultural workers are being held down or by what means.
But if we assume greed as an inescapable universal human condition, then the workers might believe their wages are always being held down whereas the employers might believe that their wages are being held "up".

And I suppose that you can also believe in such things as unicorns and that tax cuts pay for themselves, or all sorts of other fantasies. In the end, if you’re going to make an assertion, then you should throw down some evidence to help back it up.

So you appear to believe that employers might believe that the wages of their migrant work force are being held ‘up’. Discuss.


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 Post subject: Re: Who picks your food in the USA?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:49 am 
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ajax18 wrote:
We're perfectly fine with paying higher prices for European and Asian goods until we win this trade war.


When did republicans/conservatives turn anti-free trade? "Trade war" is an oxymoron. Has anyone ever "won" a trade war before? In all the previous trade wars in history, was a winner declared? Did they get a trophy?

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 Post subject: Re: Who picks your food in the USA?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:06 am 
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Quote:
When did republicans/conservatives turn anti-free trade?


They didn't. DJT still supports free trade. But he no longer views us as just citizens of the world. He puts American interests first when it comes to trade, the border, the environment, etc. In the past Republicans have put the interest of big business ahead of the common working American. DJT changed that when he thrashed the RINOs in the Republican primary of 2016. It's called economic nationalism. It's the movement that provided a winning Republican presidential candidate when the old ways of the establishment produced nothing but losses.

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 Post subject: Re: Who picks your food in the USA?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:21 pm 
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ajax18 wrote:
Quote:
When did republicans/conservatives turn anti-free trade?


They didn't. DJT still supports free trade. But he no longer views us as just citizens of the world. He puts American interests first when it comes to trade, the border, the environment, etc. In the past Republicans have put the interest of big business ahead of the common working American. DJT changed that when he thrashed the RINOs in the Republican primary of 2016. It's called economic nationalism. It's the movement that provided a winning Republican presidential candidate when the old ways of the establishment produced nothing but losses.


I get the Donald Trump doesn't view the US as citizens of the world, but his alternative facts don't change the real fact that the US is part of a larger global economy. You Trumpettes keep talking about winning a trade war. Can you cite any examples of trade wars in history that actually produced a winner?

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 Post subject: Re: Who picks your food in the USA?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:49 pm 
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canpakes wrote:
And I suppose that you can also believe in such things as unicorns and that tax cuts pay for themselves, or all sorts of other fantasies. In the end, if you’re going to make an assertion, then you should throw down some evidence to help back it up.

check the thread, you made the assertion.


canpakes wrote:
So you appear to believe that employers might believe that the wages of their migrant work force are being held ‘up’. Discuss.

I did not say what I believe...though I believe market forces can co-exist whereas employer and employee are equally, and simultaneously, dissatisfied with a wage rate.

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 Post subject: Re: Who picks your food in the USA?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:14 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
canpakes wrote:
And I suppose that you can also believe in such things as unicorns and that tax cuts pay for themselves, or all sorts of other fantasies. In the end, if you’re going to make an assertion, then you should throw down some evidence to help back it up.

check the thread, you made the assertion.

Rather, I asked a question that you dodged:

Can you tell me if the wages of agricultural workers are being held down by their wanting to be paid less?

Then you went on to state that perhaps some employers feel that the wages paid to migrants has been held ‘up’. Which gets us to this place, where you can’t back that up either, and where you are just circling about in a confused manner.


subgenius wrote:
canpakes wrote:
So you appear to believe that employers might believe that the wages of their migrant work force are being held ‘up’. Discuss.

I did not say what I believe...though I believe market forces can co-exist whereas employer and employee are equally, and simultaneously, dissatisfied with a wage rate.

Sure. That much is known. Where do you suppose that employers want to go from here?


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 Post subject: Re: Who picks your food in the USA?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:58 pm 
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canpakes wrote:
Rather, I asked a question that you dodged:

so your burden for evidence is misplaced, thanks.

canpakes wrote:
Can you tell me if the wages of agricultural workers are being held down by their wanting to be paid less?

Then you went on to state that perhaps some employers feel that the wages paid to migrants has been held ‘up’. Which gets us to this place, where you can’t back that up either, and where you are just circling about in a confused manner.

Nope, I went on to answer as follows: "But if we assume greed as an inescapable universal human condition, then the workers might believe their wages are always being held down whereas the employers might believe that their wages are being held "up".", with the obvious "back up" being the whole assumption about greed....see how i typed words there?

subgenius wrote:
Sure. That much is known. Where do you suppose that employers want to go from here?

"Suppose"? I dare not suppose even though you ask me to suppose, because then you will accuse of making suppositions without evidence...and suppositions without evidence are...well, they are just suppositions.

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 Post subject: Re: Who picks your food in the USA?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:01 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
canpakes wrote:
Rather, I asked a question that you dodged:

so your burden for evidence is misplaced, thanks.

canpakes wrote:
Can you tell me if the wages of agricultural workers are being held down by their wanting to be paid less?

Then you went on to state that perhaps some employers feel that the wages paid to migrants has been held ‘up’. Which gets us to this place, where you can’t back that up either, and where you are just circling about in a confused manner.

Nope, I went on to answer as follows: "But if we assume greed as an inescapable universal human condition, then the workers might believe their wages are always being held down whereas the employers might believe that their wages are being held "up".", with the obvious "back up" being the whole assumption about greed....see how i typed words there?

subgenius wrote:
Sure. That much is known. Where do you suppose that employers want to go from here?

"Suppose"? I dare not suppose even though you ask me to suppose, because then you will accuse of making suppositions without evidence...and suppositions without evidence are...well, they are just suppositions.



OK, so you don’t know anything about the subject of discussion. You just showed up in here to drop a bunch of marbles on to the floor, which no one then slipped on except for yourself. Got it. ; )


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 Post subject: Re: Who picks your food in the USA?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:10 pm 
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canpakes wrote:
OK, so you don’t know anything about the subject of discussion. You just showed up in here to drop a bunch of marbles on to the floor, which no one then slipped on except for yourself. Got it. ; )

I discussed pertinent points about your post, which you ignored - and then you that decided better to ask ambiguous questions, only to become judgmental when my answers did not provide enough argument for you to jump on. I even provided a relevant anecdote on the subject of discussion.
Whereas you have still yet to answer the question for this mystery "process" marble you rolled across the floor....but given that you have not really discussed anything here yourself, i got it!

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Who picks your food in the USA?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:35 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
canpakes wrote:
OK, so you don’t know anything about the subject of discussion. You just showed up in here to drop a bunch of marbles on to the floor, which no one then slipped on except for yourself. Got it. ; )

I discussed pertinent points about your post, which you ignored - and then you that decided better to ask ambiguous questions, only to become judgmental when my answers did not provide enough argument for you to jump on. I even provided a relevant anecdote on the subject of discussion.
Whereas you have still yet to answer the question for this mystery "process" marble you rolled across the floor....but given that you have not really discussed anything here yourself, i got it!

Image

It’s not up to me to answer, for conservatives, why they think that the mere presence of brown migrants in an area forces ag producers and farm owners to offer comparatively low wages for their work. That’s the conservative argument. Apparently, you can’t explain it either, even after I clarified your questions for you.

Great gif; this is a great visual for whenever you show up in threads. : )


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 Post subject: Re: Who picks your food in the USA?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:42 pm 
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Quote:
You Trumpettes keep talking about winning a trade war. Can you cite any examples of trade wars in history that actually produced a winner?


Look, China has been manipulating their currency and kept us at a trade deficit for many decades now. If it takes a trade war to get us back onto a level playing field, that's a price I'm willing to pay. If you let other people walk all over you, you soon find yourself without any rights. That's why fighting is necessary sometimes.

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 Post subject: Re: Who picks your food in the USA?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:27 pm 
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ajax18 wrote:
Quote:
You Trumpettes keep talking about winning a trade war. Can you cite any examples of trade wars in history that actually produced a winner?


Look, China has been manipulating their currency and kept us at a trade deficit for many decades now. If it takes a trade war to get us back onto a level playing field, that's a price I'm willing to pay. If you let other people walk all over you, you soon find yourself without any rights. That's why fighting is necessary sometimes.

If only Americans hadn’t been so damn obsessed with buying as much crap as possible at the lowest price Walmart could push it ...

... although I suspect that the larger share of Trump fanatics will still be haunting the aisles of Wallie World and dollar stores just as often next week as last week. And so it goes.


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 Post subject: Re: Who picks your food in the USA?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:30 pm 
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Ajax - Your predictable adoption of Trump's half-understood mercantilism aside, since Trump is a free trader, I'm curious who you can point to in American politics who isn't a free trader? In fact, what is a protectionist?


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 Post subject: Re: Who picks your food in the USA?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:41 pm 
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ajax18 wrote:
Quote:
You Trumpettes keep talking about winning a trade war. Can you cite any examples of trade wars in history that actually produced a winner?


Look, China has been manipulating their currency and kept us at a trade deficit for many decades now. If it takes a trade war to get us back onto a level playing field, that's a price I'm willing to pay. If you let other people walk all over you, you soon find yourself without any rights. That's why fighting is necessary sometimes.


Help me out here. I'm one of those folks who has been brainwashed by the past 200+ years of economics to think that running a trade deficit with a country isn't necessarily a bad thing anymore than me running a trade deficit with a store because I bought things from it using dollars I acquired in exchange for my productivity. In fact, I can make out like a bandit in this deal because I'm able to translate the stuff I do into someone making a TV for me.

Pubic schools, amiright? Anyway, can you explain for me why a trade deficit with China is bad? Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Who picks your food in the USA?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:53 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:

Help me out here. I'm one of those folks who has been brainwashed by the past 200+ years of economics to think that running a trade deficit with a country isn't necessarily a bad thing anymore than me running a trade deficit with a store because I bought things from it using dollars I acquired in exchange for my productivity. In fact, I can make out like a bandit in this deal because I'm able to translate the stuff I do into someone making a TV for me.


I think you're looking at it wrong. Trade is war. When you walk into a store, it's not about both you and the store "winning" (you get a product you desire for what you perceive is a fair price, the store gives you the product for what it perceives is a good profit). That's the wrong way to look at it. You need to win and the store owner needs to lose. Make the store owner a "loser". It's all about winners and losers.

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