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 Post subject: Re: POC and Trump Fan: A Baffling Combination
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:03 am 
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“I have reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block toward freedom is not the White citizen’s councilor or the Klu Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension, to a positive peace, which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, ‘I agree with you with the goals that you seek, but can’t agree with your methods of direct action.” — the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., “Letter From Birmingham Jail,” 1963

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 Post subject: Re: POC and Trump Fan: A Baffling Combination
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:19 am 
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Thanks for your response, subgenius.

subgenius wrote:
my mistake, I must have been confused with his 1986 Ellis Island Award :
The Ellis Island Medals of Honor embody the spirit of America in their celebration of patriotism, tolerance, brotherhood and diversity. They recognize individuals who have made it their mission to share with those less fortunate their wealth of knowledge, indomitable courage, boundless compassion, unique talents and selfless generosity; all while maintaining the traditions of their ethnic heritage as they uphold the ideals and spirit of America. As always, NECO remains dedicated to the maintenance and restoration of America’s greatest symbol of its immigrant history, Ellis Island.

all those awards look alike don't they?
nevertheless, what a clever white supremacist to play the long, long, long con, eh?


Yes, interesting argument. So, New York City businessman William Denis Fugazy, who was later convicted of perjury for lying to the court in his bankruptcy to funnel money to his kids, set up an award because he was upset that medals of liberty were awarded to people of the wrong ethnicities. Donald Trump, another New York businessman of even more dubious ethics, receives one of these awards. Michael Cohen, the bottom feeding lawyer, tries to pass off this Who's Who of New York award as something that it is not, and now Trump fans idly use this as evidence that he is not a racist.

If we back to your original claim, the distance between your mistaken idea of what this showed, and the reality of what it actually is, is a gaping wide chasm. No, this does not prove anything about Donald Trump's views or feelings about race. This is Donald Trump receiving an empty beanie pin from one of his pals of the New York elite.

subgenius wrote:
association? just because he's white, correct?


No, because he wed himself to Steve Bannon, one of the leading lights of the alt-right. Bannon, of course, is anti-immigration, and accused the Catholic Church of supporting immigration to fill its own pews. Speaking to the National Front in France, Marie Le Pen's right-wing, anti-immigrant party, Bannon said:

Quote:
“Let them call you racists. Let them call you xenophobes. Let them call you nativists,” he said. “Wear it as a badge of honor.”


Remember that Marie Le Pen's father was a Holocaust denier who associated with Nazi collaborators.

Recall, also, that Jeff Sessions praised a 1924 law restricting immigration from Southern and Eastern Europe, and therein especially Italians and Jews, and from Africa and the Middle East. It also banned immigration from East Asia entirely.

subgenius wrote:
your fantasy isn't real and your evidence can't be imaginary, by the way.


What fantasy? What imaginary evidence?

subgenius wrote:
that's an ignorant claim, his quote was "Some Very Fine People on Both Sides" ...and the context was after he noted that not every protestor was a nazi.
quit being a sheep, learn facts.


OK, so, let's think about this a little more clearly. "Very fine people on both sides" means that there were very fine people among the white supremacists and Neo-Nazis at the Virginia rally. Of course, Trump's comments were received with jubilation by the white supremacists and Neo-Nazis who were happy to have been praised by the president, and also not condemned for their actions.

Rhetoric is about one says and what one neglects to say. This is an ancient art, going back millennia. The Greeks and Romans were particularly skilled in the art of rhetoric. Skilled rhetoricians know how to send a message by omitting something that would ordinarily be expected in a certain context.

The situation Trump addressed demanded his unequivocal, strong condemnation of white supremacists and Neo-Nazis. These groups were beside themselves with joy when Trump did not condemn them. Later, he was compelled to do so, but he then equivocated after he was made to do so. Trump has gone out of his way to avoid offending white supremacists and Neo-Nazis. When he is compelled to condemn them, he will try to walk back his comments, lest he alienate these "very fine people" whose support he desires.

Andrew Anglin, former administrator of the Daily Stormer, praised Trump's words, and forgave him for being compelled to walk some of it back:

Quote:
"I knew Trump was eventually going to be like meh, whatever," Anglin wrote. "Trump only disavowed us at the point of a Jewish weapon. So I'm not disavowing him."


David Duke said:

Quote:
"Thank you President Trump for your honesty and courage to tell the truth about Charlottesville and condemn the leftist terrorists in BLM/Antifa".


subgenius wrote:
yet the documents the ACLU just acquired from the Obama years show horrible abuse of children in those detention centers... but you just didn't know, neither did anyone right?
nevertheless, the policy wasn't cruel, no more cruel than any citizen getting arrested and having child services show up. So spare the hair fire.


OK, so here's the deal. As far as I am concerned, this argument is about Trump. Otherwise, it becomes incoherent. Whataboutism is not a rabbit hole I will fall into. Address the evidence regarding Trump. We are not in an argument about Obama's or Clinton's racism. Referring to their policies without specificity, and vaguely to the ACLU, etc., is really just a dodge. The question before us is whether the Trump administration's treatment of immigrants is both lopsided (much harsher on POCs than whites) and aggravated over prior administrations. The specific problem with Trump's treatment of the issue is his zero-tolerance policy, which resulted in the mistreatment, and perhaps illegal treatment, of asylum-seekers as criminals and then the separation of children from their families in a completely feckless and destructive way, housing those POC minors, some as young as infants and toddlers, in jail-like conditions, and forcibly administering powerful psychotropics to them.

I would appreciate you addressing the specifics of these issues as opposed to offering vague allusions, employing whataboutisms, and indulging in provocative jabs. If I read "whatabout" Obama or Clinton, I will view that as non-responsive. Because, my interest in here is not to prove who is uniquely guilty of racism. American immigration policy is fundamentally ethnically biased, and it impacts certain ethnic groups disproportionally. Any president who does not work to improve the situation or who worsens it should be viewed as culpable. Of course, Trump is different inasmuch as he has deliberately stoked hatred against people entering this country across its southern border, using a strategy of rhetorical denigration reminiscent of Nazi propaganda against the Jews in the 1930s.

My interest is to know how POC Trump supporters overlook all of the various warning signs and evidences of Trump pandering to racist ideologues, and likely holding racist views himself, all with real impact on POC (such as treating POC asylum-seekers like hardened criminals).


Last edited by Kishkumen on Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: POC and Trump Fan: A Baffling Combination
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:20 am 
God
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Maksutov wrote:
“I have reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block toward freedom is not the White citizen’s councilor or the Klu Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension, to a positive peace, which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, ‘I agree with you with the goals that you seek, but can’t agree with your methods of direct action.” — the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., “Letter From Birmingham Jail,” 1963


Yes, that's certainly strange.

The USA is a country founded upon the view that the attainment of liberty was a goal desirable enough to warrant a violent armed rebellion against the system of government then in place, to say nothing of the violence used by the rebels against those Americans not in favor of rebel actions. (I simply describe; I do not criticise.)

But a black person sits at a lunch counter or boycotts a bus service in order to attain rights equal to those of white people? Dear me, no! That is going too far.

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 Post subject: Re: POC and Trump Fan: A Baffling Combination
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:31 am 
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subgenius wrote:
"his many dog whistles to white supremacists" your fantasy isn't real and your evidence can't be imaginary, by the way.

:lol: :lol: Says the classless guy who [violation of Universal Rule #7 deleted]. You truly are a piece of work to sit there and defend Trump's racism and dog whistling with a straight face while pretending you're not at all complicit.

Here is a former White Supremacist explaining to Megan Kelly how Trump's numerous dog whistles to racist America are actually bull horns for the extremists who have basically been sitting around just waiting for someone like Trump to energize them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpkU6skEW7c

What makes you think you know more about White Supremacist mentality than bonafide white supremacists?

Oh, wait... :eek:


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 Post subject: Re: POC and Trump Fan: A Baffling Combination
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:35 am 
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You're trying to talk to a troll, folks. Maybe you're enjoying the troll stench but I'll pass. :razz: Playing ping pong with holocaust deniers gives them far more legitimacy than they deserve.

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 Post subject: Re: POC and Trump Fan: A Baffling Combination
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:01 am 
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Maksutov wrote:
You're trying to talk to a troll, folks. Maybe you're enjoying the troll stench but I'll pass. :razz: Playing ping pong with holocaust deniers gives them far more legitimacy than they deserve.

Agreed. I find no point or advantage in conversing with someone who strives to be as dishonest as his idiot dear leader.

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 Post subject: Re: POC and Trump Fan: A Baffling Combination
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:59 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
You're trying to talk to a troll, folks. Maybe you're enjoying the troll stench but I'll pass. :razz: Playing ping pong with holocaust deniers gives them far more legitimacy than they deserve.

Thank goodness for white guys like you Mak, keeping your "great advice" for POC going on 3 pages now...what would we ever do without ya!

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 Post subject: Re: POC and Trump Fan: A Baffling Combination
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
OK, so here's the deal. As far as I am concerned, this argument is about Trump.

agreed.
Kishkumen wrote:
Address the evidence regarding Trump. We are not in an argument about Obama's or Clinton's racism.

I did address what little evidence you have presented...which to date, your evidence consists of (1) Bannon! and (2) an out-context misquote about Charlottesville.
Now granted you would have us all believe that these 2 circumstantial pieces of so-called evidence amount to a conclusion, or at least accusation, of racism and white-supremacy, but it does not...and forgive the analogy, but Steve Bannon is to Trump as Jeremiah Wright is to Obama....and that is not whataboutism but rather an example of how a President can radical people in his circle without being a radical himself - correct?

Kishkumen wrote:
My interest is to know how POC Trump supporters overlook all of the various warning signs and evidences of Trump pandering to racist ideologues, and likely holding racist views himself, all with real impact on POC (such as treating POC asylum-seekers like hardened criminals).

You are assuming facts not in evidence, which is likely the source of your confusion. There is no evidence of pandering nor evidence that he holds any more racist views than you do...his award, which was received along with Ali and Rosa Parks, actually provides (one of many) questions to the veracity your accusations.

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Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent


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