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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:29 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Dear Board Members:

What do you think Majax thinks this thing called 'communism' essentially consists of?

I think he is referring to desecrating both Mom and apple pie while simultaneously plotting the overthrow of Wall Street and giving away the contents of Fort Knox to people of color.

Hope that helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:35 pm 
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Chap wrote:
ajax18 wrote:
I think your communism is a bigger threat to American freedom than Putin by far.


Dear Board Members:

What do you think Majax thinks this thing called 'communism' essentially consists of?


Global warming that Gunnar seems to care so deeply about is more of an effort to establish global communism than it is to stop climate change.

I certainly trust Putin more than Gunnar, EAllusion, or Kevin Graham. It's not even close.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:44 pm 
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ajax18 wrote:
Global warming that Gunnar seems to care so deeply about is more of an effort to establish global communism than it is to stop climate change.

I certainly trust Putin more than Gunnar, EAllusion, or Kevin Graham. It's not even close.

Well, you just enjoy your respite from global communism next week. https://www.axios.com/scorching-heat-wa ... c4126.html

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:28 pm 
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ajax18 wrote:
Global warming that Gunnar seems to care so deeply about is more of an effort to establish global communism than it is to stop climate change.


I have never heard even a cogent argument how this is supposed to work?

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I certainly trust Putin more than Gunnar, EAllusion, or Kevin Graham. It's not even close.


So you trust a guy who destroyed Russia's emerging democracy and invades another country and kills his opponents more then these three? The guy you guys would hate before he interfered with US elections in 2016. You really think Putin wants to help you out and keep you free and safe more then those three?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:40 pm 
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Chap wrote:
ajax18 wrote:
I think your communism is a bigger threat to American freedom than Putin by far.


Dear Board Members:

What do you think Majax thinks this thing called 'communism' essentially consists of?

He apparently thinks that anyone who disagrees with him about anything must be a communist, or that anyone who cares about the well being of anyone other than oneself must be a communist.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:58 pm 
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Gunnar wrote:
Chap wrote:

Dear Board Members:

What do you think Majax thinks this thing called 'communism' essentially consists of?

He apparently thinks that anyone who disagrees with him about anything must be a communist, or that anyone who cares about the well being of anyone other than oneself must be a communist.

It's easiest to explain Majax by saying he's a willing ignoramus. That says everything you need to know about him. He has no interest in reality whatsoever. Facts are no fun for his addled racist mindset.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:20 am 
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Themis wrote:
ajax18 wrote:
Global warming that Gunnar seems to care so deeply about is more of an effort to establish global communism than it is to stop climate change.

I have never heard even a cogent argument how this is supposed to work?

There isn't one.

Followers of Fox are not allowed to question what their overlords command them to repeat. They're just supposed to repeat it over and over, no matter how silly.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:25 am 
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Chap wrote:
ajax18 wrote:
I think your communism is a bigger threat to American freedom than Putin by far.

Dear Board Members:

What do you think Majax thinks this thing called 'communism' essentially consists of?

ajax18 wrote:
Global warming that Gunnar seems to care so deeply about is more of an effort to establish global communism than it is to stop climate change.

I certainly trust Putin more than Gunnar, EAllusion, or Kevin Graham. It's not even close.

But what is this thing that Majax calls 'communism'? He doesn't say.

I suspect that it may be a reference to what are (in his view) the dangers to the US that he fears will follow from its participation in international multilateral agreements such as the the Paris Agreement on action to combat climate change, and so on. But past that guess, I am in the dark.

"Communism" has a fairly clear historical meaning, which refers to two things:

1. A supposedly possible state of society based on common ownership, without class conflicts, where everybody contributes according to their abilities, and everybody gets in return what they need.

2. A political movement that aims to promote the ultimate establishment of such a society by the overthrow of existing structures of power, which are said to be controlled by the owners of capital and to function by exploiting those who work for wages.

(By the way: much of my own political life has been spent urging that (1) is not possible, and that hence (2) is misguided and likely to be more destructive than to promote human happiness.)

I don't see what Majax's usage has to do with that (to my mind) normal use of the word 'communism'.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trunp So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:21 pm 
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Gunnar wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:
It's obvious. Putin has the pee tape.

Perhaps even more telling is the enormous sums of money Trump and his organization owes to Russian banks and oligarchs, because no respectable U.S. banks were still willing to loan him money.

Bingo.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:17 pm 
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Great burn from Stephen Colbert about the summit:

"That makes sense. It is time for Trump's annual employee review."

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:15 pm 
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Chap wrote:
But what is this thing that Majax calls 'communism'? He doesn't say.

I suspect that it may be a reference to what are (in his view) the dangers to the US that he fears will follow from its participation in international multilateral agreements such as the the Paris Agreement on action to combat climate change, and so on. But past that guess, I am in the dark.

"Communism" has a fairly clear historical meaning, which refers to two things:

1. A supposedly possible state of society based on common ownership, without class conflicts, where everybody contributes according to their abilities, and everybody gets in return what they need.

2. A political movement that aims to promote the ultimate establishment of such a society by the overthrow of existing structures of power, which are said to be controlled by the owners of capital and to function by exploiting those who work for wages.

(By the way: much of my own political life has been spent urging that (1) is not possible, and that hence (2) is misguided and likely to be more destructive than to promote human happiness.)

I don't see what Majax's usage has to do with that (to my mind) normal use of the word 'communism'.

I think the most plausible explanation for Majax's misguided association of government attempts to address and mitigate global warming with communism has been provided by Naomi Oreskes and Erik M. Conway in their book, Merchants of Doubt.

Quote:
Oreskes and Conway write that a handful of politically conservative scientists, with strong ties to particular industries, have "played a disproportionate role in debates about controversial questions".[5]

The authors write that this has resulted in "deliberate obfuscation" of the issues which has had an influence on public opinion and policy-making.[5]The book criticizes the so-called Merchants of Doubt, some predominantly American science key players, above all Bill Nierenberg, Fred Seitz, and Fred Singer. All three are physicists: Singer was a rocket scientist, whereas Nierenberg and Seitz worked on the atomic bomb.[6] They have been active on topics like acid rain, tobacco smoking, global warming and pesticides. The book claims that these scientists have challenged and diluted the scientific consensus in the various fields, as of the dangers of smoking, the effects of acid rain, the existence of the ozone hole, and the existence of anthropogenic climate change.[5] Seitz and Singer have been involved with institutions such as The Heritage Foundation, Competitive Enterprise Institute and George C. Marshall Institute in the United States. Funded by corporations and conservative foundations, these organizations have opposed many forms of state intervention or regulation of U.S. citizens. The book lists similar tactics in each case: "discredit the science, disseminate false information, spread confusion, and promote doubt".[7]

The book states that Seitz, Singer, Nierenberg and Robert Jastrow were all fiercely anti-communist and they viewed government regulation as a step towards socialism and communism. The authors argue that, with the collapse of the Soviet Union, they looked for another great threat to free market capitalism and found it in environmentalism. They feared that an over-reaction to environmental problems would lead to heavy-handed government intervention in the marketplace and intrusion into people's lives.[8] Oreskes and Conway state that the longer the delay the worse these problems get, and the more likely it is that governments will need to take the draconian measures that conservatives and market fundamentalists most fear. They say that Seitz, Singer, Nierenberg and Jastrow denied the scientific evidence, contributed to a strategy of delay, and thereby helped to bring about the situation they most dreaded.[8] The authors have a strong doubt about the ability of the media to differentiate between false truth and the actual science in question; however, they stop short of endorsing censorship in the name of science.[9] The journalistic norm of balanced reporting has helped, according to the authors, to amplify the misleading messages of the contrarians. Oreskes and Conway state: "small numbers of people can have large, negative impacts, especially if they are organised, determined and have access to power".[7]

The main conclusion of the book is that there would have been more progress in policymaking, if not for the influence of the contrarian "experts", which tried on ideological reasons to undermine trust in the science base for regulation.[9] Similar conclusions were already drawn, among others on Frederick Seitz and William Nierenberg in the book Requiem for a Species: Why We Resist the Truth about Climate Change (2010) by Australian academic Clive Hamilton.

Majax, is obviously, one of those willfully ignorant fools who bought into the misguided arguments of the above mentioned scientists that any attempt by government to regulate corporations and hold them responsible for polluting the environment and damaging the health and safety of the public is necessarily some sort of communist plot.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:20 pm 
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ajax18 wrote:
Gunnar wrote:
Good points, EAllusion. It flabbergasts me that Trump apparently does not even try to hide the fact that he welcomes Russian interference in American elections on his behalf, and his core supporters still blindly support him and make excuses for him! It is a whole new level of abject idiocy that makes even some flat earthers seem smart by comparison!


I know it makes no sense, especially considering how much you've tried to reach out to DJT supporters. You owe me white privilege, BLM burning down Baltimore, St. Louis, over fictional anti police narratives, the party of higher taxes more welfare entitlements, and giving the country away in the name of racial diversity and global warming. What's not to like?

I think your communism is a bigger threat to American freedom than Putin by far.

Contrary to what you seem determined to believe, you don't have to be a Communist to have genuine concerns about global warming, environmental protection, social justice, extreme economic disparity, the lack of universally available and affordable healthcare, etc. On environmental issues in particular, Communism actually has a worse track record than most Western, capitalistic economies. Some of the very worst ecological disasters ever, occurred in Communist or formerly Communist countries such as the USSR and the Eastern Block countries they controlled. Remember Chernobyl? Communism would be the last thing I would turn to for sound, environmental policies, including global warming!

The best things the government can do to mitigate AGW is to encourage and reward entrepreneurial innovation in developing green alternatives to heavy dependence on fossil fuels, stop subsidizing the enormously wealthy and predatory fossil fuel industry, and stop trying to block the spread of solar energy and other green energy sources, which are already cheaper, more efficient, safer and more cost effective, as well as being more environmentally benign. Their potential for job creation and economic stimulation is so tremendous that any who oppose them are idiots--even if they are now involved in or profit from the fossil fuel industry!


ETA: Even the fossil fuel industry is acknowledging that renewable energy is more cost effective!
Quote:
(CNN)You wouldn't expect a museum dedicated to the coal industry to run on anything other than coal -- but a mining museum in Kentucky is soon to be solar powered.

The Kentucky Coal Mining Museum in Benham, owned by Southeast Kentucky Community and Technical College, is switching to solar power to save money. The museum, which memorializes Kentucky's history in coal mining, is modernizing with a new form of cheaper energy.

Communications director Brandon Robinson told CNN affiliate WYMT that the project "will help save at least eight to ten thousand dollars, off the energy costs on this building alone."

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:16 pm 
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ajax18 wrote:
Global warming that Gunnar seems to care so deeply about is more of an effort to establish global communism than it is to stop climate change.


ajax, have you ever looked at the environmental record of the Soviet Union? Chernobyl?

If an environmental concern conflicted with those of a 5-year plan, guess which one emerged victorious? Communism, an ideology primarily concerned with the state controlling the means of production, was not terribly concerned about environmental niceties. The reactor that exploded at Chernobyl was exported to Finland, only the export version shipped with with a containment vessel lacking from the domestic version.

I think what you're doing is conflating the fear of communism with necessity of international cooperation. Global Warming is global problem, but we would be foolish to think that it is the only one mankind will face. As more and more people populate the planet, the less individual freedom each person will have with respect to their habits of consumption. If every family on earth drove a gas powered SUV and had American patterns of consumption, our planet would be in far worse shape environmentally.

And even if there is a magic pill for global warming: cold fusion or cheap solar or biochemical energy production, I don't think mankind will have won, but merely dodged a bullet. It's just a matter of time before another pattern of consumption will reach a point where some sort of global cooperation will be required to divert disaster.

The fact that this is happening and will continue to happen is not a declaration of victory for one ideology over another. But as long as mankind's population continues to grow, the problems of increased production and consumption will never be solved. Something has to give: the number of people or the amount of consumption. Both curves cannot continue to rise indefinitely.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:23 am 
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MeDotOrg is right. No matter what we do, population and per capita consumption cannot both continue to rise at present rates for long. Either there must be a worldwide agreement to voluntarily limit both population growth and consumption rates, or there must be a drastic reduction in human life expectancy and huge increase in death rates due to starvation, war and pestilence when the human population exceeds the capacity of the earth to sustain it. Any conceivable efforts to prevent that inevitability that doesn't include somehow ending exponential growth in population and consumption rates can do no more than temporarily postpone it, and make the disaster all the worse when it finally happens anyway. This is not a matter of communist, liberal, ideological or political hype. It is a matter of basic, irrefutable and irrevocable arithmetic that God Almighty himself cannot deny without revealing himself to be a liar or fool or both.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:29 pm 
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https://www.investors.com/politics/edit ... admits-it/

A decent explanation on the connection of global warming and communism.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:54 pm 
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The idea that global warming is a communist scheme comes from the notion that international collective regulation of economic activity is necessary to combat it, and that in of itself is a prelude to communist control of industry. The full conspiracy is that academia is full of leftists who are fabricating global warming hysteria as a mere pretext for international government control of industry.

It's one of those bananas ideas that someone like Ajax would never think or care about if not for the cross-breeding of ideas within his conservative media sources. He's in it for the racism, but somehow he's all of a sudden a staunch opponent of climate science. It's kinda wild when you really think about it.

It's also a reminder of how powerful the merchants of doubt ended up getting. Global warming is not too dissimilar from ozone depleting chemicals in terms of global threat caused by individual polluters scattered around the planet. Yet, international action on that was largely successful and the worst of the global consequences were averted (for now). It is a major environmental success story. In fact, the US's cooperation and leadership on the issue occurred under Reagan and George H.W. Bush.

This did not usher in global communism, but it is instructive about how conservatism degraded in the following years.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:07 pm 
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Of course there's a connection between communism and climate change, just like there's a solid connection between bestiality and Drumpf support. It's soooo obvious, who could possibly doubt it?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:07 pm 
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Gents,

He doesn't read your responses, and he certainly won't answer your questions. He just lacks the ability beyond a bit of transactional knowledge (Google searches). It is what it is.

Granted, we're all dependent on the Googles these days, but with Ajax there's a conspicuous lack of philosophical training that underscores the pedagogical training his mother missed out on when she was certified as a home school teacher from the Sears catalog.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:15 am 
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ajax18 wrote:
https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/climate-change-a-back-door-to-communism-and-the-united-nations-admits-it/

A decent explanation on the connection of global warming and communism.

Where's the explanation? This is a 4-year old article quoting one ex-communist with an agenda, preceded by a fabricated and implied assertion never made by the person listed.

Quote:
Christiana Figueres, with the lumpy title of executive secretary of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC), came right out and said it: Democracy is a poor political system for fighting global warming. The really good model is communist China


Figueres never said that democracy is a poor political system for fighting global warming. Look it up. Her comment to China only states the obvious - that they're finally realizing that they have to change their ways, and are doing so.

In fact, if you look up what she has actually said over the years, you'd see just where she stands on western efforts on climate change. You'd realize that you'd been lied to once again by yet another ____, just like so many others who believe that you're too stupid to ever check out the koolaid that they're pumping down your throat.

But, hey - go ahead and believe the old ex-commie and the unknown dude fabricating BS in an online editorial, over the work of more than 30,000 scientists and 12,000 peer-reviewed research articles. That makes sense, right? ; )


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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:39 am 
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So, now Ajax is claiming that any kind of international cooperation to address any kind of problem that effects all of us worldwide is necessarily and inherently communistic in nature, and therefore evil and must be rejected. Either that, or he thinks that any solution to any problem must be summarily rejected, even if it demonstrably works and is indispensable to successful solution of the problem, if communists are also in favor of it.

There is plenty wrong with communism, but not everything ever done or proposed by communists fails or is a poor idea. One doesn't reject the idea that the sky is blue or that we ought to fight crime and fires just because communists also agree with that.

Besides that, working collectively and cooperatively to a achieve a common goal for the benefit of all is not exclusively a communist Ideal, and certainly not an inherently evil one.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:50 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
The idea that global warming is a communist scheme comes from the notion that international collective regulation of economic activity is necessary to combat it, and that in of itself is a prelude to communist control of industry. The full conspiracy is that academia is full of leftists who are fabricating global warming hysteria as a mere pretext for international government control of industry.

It's one of those bananas ideas that someone like Ajax would never think or care about if not for the cross-breeding of ideas within his conservative media sources. He's in it for the racism, but somehow he's all of a sudden a staunch opponent of climate science. It's kinda wild when you really think about it.

It's also a reminder of how powerful the merchants of doubt ended up getting. Global warming is not too dissimilar from ozone depleting chemicals in terms of global threat caused by individual polluters scattered around the planet. Yet, international action on that was largely successful and the worst of the global consequences were averted (for now). It is a major environmental success story. In fact, the US's cooperation and leadership on the issue occurred under Reagan and George H.W. Bush.

This did not usher in global communism, but it is instructive about how conservatism degraded in the following years.

Yeah, as pointed out by Oreskes and Conway in Merchants of Doubt.

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