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 Post subject: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Trump threw a temper tantrum at the recent G7 meeting with our allies Trump excoriated NATO because our allies would not agree to just handing Crimea over to Russia.
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Now, I'm not trying to defend NATO in any way. I understand they do a lot of crappy things all over the world and they're currently involved in them. However, the United States does depend on them. Donald Trump is attempting to blow up that alliance. Why? Well, it actually has nothing to do with the money that we're paying because later on he actually revealed the real reason. He believes that we need to just hand over Crimea to Russia. He's really mad that our NATO allies over in Europe haven't just done that. Why not give it to Vladimir Putin in Russia?

Now, this was part of the meeting. This is what the man said. As most people who've been paying attention to the situation understand, Russia has been weaken and undermine NATO for quite some time now. Basically, Donald Trump showed up at this G7 meeting, threw this temper tantrum in an attempt to do Russia's bidding here. Now, this is not Russiagate hysteria. This is not new Cold War talking points. This is literally what happened at the meeting that is easily verifiable. There is no way to juggle around these facts. This actually happened. Donald Trump is out there advocating for these countries to hand over Crimea to Russia. If they don't, he is going to go to a NATO meeting in just a few weeks and basically make the whole thing about money so that they can't get anything else accomplished.

Donald Trump absolutely on at least this issue, most likely more, is doing Russia's bidding for no reason, at least on the surface. We have to assume as rational, thinking human beings that there is a reason why Donald Trump is out there trying to advocate for Russia to our allies and alienating the people closest to us. Hopefully, somebody like Robert Mueller is gonna be able to figure out what that underlying reason is.

Do any of the conservatives on this forum really approve of Trump supporting Putin's territorial ambitions? Why is Trump so eager to kow tow to and praise dictators like Putin and Kim Jong Un and alienate our (up to now) closest and most loyal allies and friends?

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Last edited by Gunnar on Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trunp So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:15 pm 
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Gunnar wrote:
Do any of the conservatives on this forum really approve of Trump supporting Putin's territorial ambitions?


Nope.

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Why is Trump so eager to kow tow to and praise dictators like Putin and Kim Jong Un and alienate our (up to now) closest and most loyal allies and friends?


Not knowing a whole lot about things political, but knowing something about human behavior, if I had to throw a dart and aim at something here, I would say that he's schmoozing both Putin and Un in an attempt to create a rapport/relationship with them.

The trouble is, is that none of the 3 can be remotely trusted. So there's that.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trunp So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:35 pm 
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Because Putin interfered in our free elections on his behalf in 2016 and plans on doing so in 2018 and 2020 as well? Is this a rhetorical question?


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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trunp So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:44 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
Not knowing a whole lot about things political, but knowing something about human behavior, if I had to throw a dart and aim at something here, I would say that he's schmoozing both Putin and Un in an attempt to create a rapport/relationship with them.


I don't think so. Trump is going out of his way to create worse relationships with America's closest allies and has started an all out trade war. His behavior with Putin has been very different then how he engages almost all other world leaders. There is far too many data points saying he has been compromised by the Russians. IMO this has been the greatest victory since WW2 for the Soviets/Russians.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trunp So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:58 pm 
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The biggest threat to America is global warming Gunnar. The cold war called and asked for its foreign policy back.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trunp So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:38 pm 
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ajax18 wrote:
The biggest threat to America is global warming Gunnar. The cold war called and asked for its foreign policy back.


It's sad many like you are so dishonest. It was a great political line during an election that helped Obama. You were the guys who criticized Obama about it when Russia invaded Crimea. Was Obama was wrong? Yes he was, but now you take the position he was right by trying to use the same line Obama did to defend Trump. Very hypocritical, but not unexpected.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trunp So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:30 pm 
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It's obvious. Putin has the pee tape.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trunp So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:10 pm 
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ajax18 wrote:
The cold war called and asked for its foreign policy back.

That's very glib, but falls apart upon examination. Today's Russia has replaced a brutal communist regime with a brutal plutocratic one, run by arguably the biggest kleptocrat in the history of the world.. There is brutal suppression of the press. Journalists are routinely murdered. Expats are poisoned on foreign soil. They have unquestionably tampered in our elections.

Vladimir Putin was a KGB officer for 25 years. His training gave him a great understanding of the mechanisms necessary in suppressing truth at home and exporting lies abroad. His rise to power has meant that the workers no longer own the means of production, but the brutal suppression is pretty much the same. He is Slobodan Milosevic times 12.

True, there is no Warsaw Pact, but I don't tell that to the citizens of Crimea. Crimea was invaded because Putin's stooge, Viktor Yanukovych, had been ousted in the Euromaidan Revolution. He did not trust Yanukovych's successor to play nice, and Russia wants a great warm water Black Sea port.

And if the name Viktor Yanukovych is familiar, it might be because Paul Manafort did his bidding as an unregistered foreign agent of the Yanukovych regime. Now remember during the Republican convention that the Trump camp lobbied for a softer plank on the invasion of the Crimea? While Paul Manafort was chairman of the campaign?

And now, at the G7 Trump says let bygones be bygones, forget the invasion of Crimea and the tampering of elections throughout the West. Let's let Russia back into the G7. He takes this stance in opposition to all other nations of the G7. And now Trump will have a summer summit with Putin.

I don't know how that does not ring at least one alarm bell for you.

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Last edited by MeDotOrg on Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trunp So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:24 pm 
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MeDotOrg wrote:
I don't know how that does not ring at least one alarm bell for you.

It wont. Ajax has eyes only for racist immigration polices. He would give up anything for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trunp So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:05 am 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
Not knowing a whole lot about things political, but knowing something about human behavior, if I had to throw a dart and aim at something here, I would say that he's schmoozing both Putin and Un in an attempt to create a rapport/relationship with them.

The trouble is, is that none of the 3 can be remotely trusted. So there's that.

That is all abundantly obvious--especially what I highlighted in red! :sad:

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trunp So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:17 am 
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Themis wrote:
MeDotOrg wrote:
I don't know how that does not ring at least one alarm bell for you.

It wont. Ajax has eyes only for racist immigration polices. He would give up anything for it.

It is tragically sad, if not outright treasonous, that he would even overlook Trump cravenly selling out our nation and our freedom to the Russians, if he thinks that would somehow further his over-the-top, hatefully racist views! I can think of nothing more antithetical to the Christian ideals he pretends to value!

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No precept or claim is more deservedly suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison


Last edited by Gunnar on Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trunp So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:03 am 
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ajax18 wrote:
The biggest threat to America is global warming Gunnar. The cold war called and asked for its foreign policy back.

Are you also a flat earther, Majax? Even that is not as irrational as rejecting the threat to the entire world of global warming. Virtually every nation on earth, other than the USA, is signed on to the Paris Climate change accord--including Russia and North Korea. Nicaragua refused to sign on to the accord for a while, but only because they felt it needed to be even stronger. The scientific consensus on the reality of that is actually stronger than commonly reported, and still getting stronger.
Quote:
The extent of the consensus among scientists on anthropogenic global warming (AGW) has the potential to influence public opinion and the attitude of political leaders and thus matters greatly to society. The history of science demonstrates that if we wish to judge the level of a scientific consensus and whether the consensus position is likely to be correct, the only reliable source is the peer-reviewed literature. During 2013 and 2014, only 4 of 69,406 authors of peer-reviewed articles on global warming, 0.0058% or 1 in 17,352, rejected AGW. Thus, the consensus on AGW among publishing scientists is above 99.99%, verging on unanimity. The U.S. House of Representatives holds 40 times as many global warming rejecters as are found among the authors of scientific articles. The peer-reviewed literature contains no convincing evidence against AGW.]

It is an outrageous lie that there is no consensus about AGW.
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Science achieves a consensus when scientists stop arguing. When a question is first asked – like ‘what would happen if we put a load more CO2 in the atmosphere?’ – there may be many hypotheses about cause and effect. Over a period of time, each idea is tested and retested – the processes of the scientific method – because all scientists know that reputation and kudos go to those who find the right answer (and everyone else becomes an irrelevant footnote in the history of science). Nearly all hypotheses will fall by the wayside during this testing period, because only one is going to answer the question properly, without leaving all kinds of odd dangling bits that don’t quite add up. Bad theories are usually rather untidy.

But the testing period must come to an end. Gradually, the focus of investigation narrows down to those avenues that continue to make sense, that still add up, and quite often a good theory will reveal additional answers, or make powerful predictions, that add substance to the theory.

So a consensus in science is different from a political one. There is no vote. Scientists just give up arguing because the sheer weight of consistent evidence is too compelling, the tide too strong to swim against any longer. Scientists change their minds on the basis of the evidence, and a consensus emerges over time. Not only do scientists stop arguing, they also start relying on each other's work. All science depends on that which precedes it, and when one scientist builds on the work of another, he acknowledges the work of others through citations. The work that forms the foundation of climate change science is cited with great frequency by many other scientists, demonstrating that the theory is widely accepted - and relied upon.

In the scientific field of climate studies – which is informed by many different disciplines – the consensus is demonstrated by the number of scientists who have stopped arguing about what is causing climate change – and that’s nearly all of them.

Authors of seven climate consensus studies — including Naomi Oreskes, Peter Doran, William Anderegg, Bart Verheggen, Ed Maibach, J. Stuart Carlton, and John Cook — co-authored a paper that should settle this question once and for all. The two key conclusions from the paper are:

1) Depending on exactly how you measure the expert consensus, it’s somewhere between 90% and 100% that agree humans are responsible for climate change, with most of our studies finding 97% consensus among publishing climate scientists.
2) The greater the climate expertise among those surveyed, the higher the consensus on human-caused global warming.

Expert consensus is a powerful thing. People know we don’t have the time or capacity to learn about everything, and so we frequently defer to the conclusions of experts. It’s why we visit doctors when we’re ill. The same is true of climate change: most people defer to the expert consensus of climate scientists. Crucially, as we note in our paper:

Public perception of the scientific consensus has been found to be a gateway belief, affecting other climate beliefs and attitudes including policy support.

That’s why those who oppose taking action to curb climate change have engaged in a misinformation campaign to deny the existence of the expert consensus. They’ve been largely successful, as the public badly underestimate the expert consensus, in what we call the “consensus gap.” Only 16% of Americans realize that the consensus is above 90%.

At least as outrageous and irrational as your denial of the reality of AGW is your utter lack of concern about Trump so blatantly doing the bidding of the Russians. I find that not just irrational, but downright treasonous of you!

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“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison


Last edited by Gunnar on Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:47 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trunp So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:11 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
Because Putin interfered in our free elections on his behalf in 2016 and plans on doing so in 2018 and 2020 as well? Is this a rhetorical question?

I agree that the answer to my question is so slam dunk obvious that it might seem merely a rhetorical question!

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― Harlan Ellison


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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trunp So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:23 am 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
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Why is Trump so eager to kow tow to and praise dictators like Putin and Kim Jong Un and alienate our (up to now) closest and most loyal allies and friends?

... he's schmoozing both Putin and Un

To avoid confusion: In all the cultures of East Asia, family names come first, like they do in Hungary. Kim is the family name, as suggested by the fact that Kim Jong-un is the son of Kim Jong-il, who is the son of Kim Il-song.

More importantly, I agree about the schmoozing. Funny how Trump prefers to do that with ruthless dictators who have their political opponents jailed or murdered, and don't get criticised in their national media to any significant extent. I suppose that amongst his best friends there must be some national leaders who have to worry about keeping their hold on power at the next election, but none spring to mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trunp So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:41 am 
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Before Majax or anyone else brings up the old crock that 32,000 leading scientists are skeptical of global warming, please view Peter Sinclair's total debunking of that claim.

It turns out that almost none of the scientists listed were actual climatologists, and a high proportion of them were not any kind of scientist at all. The promoters of the project made very little attempt to vet the signatories of the petition. All they had to do was claim to have a Bachelor of Science degree, and did not even have to be actually working actively in any field of science, let alone climate science. Of the few who actually were climate scientists, some were both surprised and outraged to find their names had been associated with it without their knowledge or permission, and sued to have their names removed!

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No precept or claim is more deservedly suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison


Last edited by Gunnar on Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:27 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trunp So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:50 am 
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Some Schmo wrote:
It's obvious. Putin has the pee tape.

Perhaps even more telling is the enormous sums of money Trump and his organization owes to Russian banks and oligarchs, because no respectable U.S. banks were still willing to loan him money.

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No precept or claim is more deservedly suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison


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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:08 am 
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Trump is openly encouraging Putin to interfere in 2018 and beyond incidentally. That's what his comments do and they are about as blatant as his earlier "If you are listening Russia" comments. People are so caught up in finding some dime-store spy-thriller smoking gun evidence of collusion that they can miss that it's happening right in front of our god damn eyes. He's running interference for the country's previous election sabotage while simultaneously aggressively pursuing a pro-Russian foreign policy that radically departs from anything the US has done for nearly a century.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:27 pm 
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Good points, EAllusion. It flabbergasts me that Trump apparently does not even try to hide the fact that he welcomes Russian interference in American elections on his behalf, and his core supporters still blindly support him and make excuses for him! It is a whole new level of abject idiocy that makes even some flat earthers seem smart by comparison!

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No precept or claim is more deservedly suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison


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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:17 pm 
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Gunnar wrote:
Good points, EAllusion. It flabbergasts me that Trump apparently does not even try to hide the fact that he welcomes Russian interference in American elections on his behalf, and his core supporters still blindly support him and make excuses for him! It is a whole new level of abject idiocy that makes even some flat earthers seem smart by comparison!


I know it makes no sense, especially considering how much you've tried to reach out to DJT supporters. You owe me white privilege, BLM burning down Baltimore, St. Louis, over fictional anti police narratives, the party of higher taxes more welfare entitlements, and giving the country away in the name of racial diversity and global warming. What's not to like?

I think your communism is a bigger threat to American freedom than Putin by far.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trump So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:53 pm 
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ajax18 wrote:
I think your communism is a bigger threat to American freedom than Putin by far.


Dear Board Members:

What do you think Majax thinks this thing called 'communism' essentially consists of?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Is Trunp So Eager to Do Putin's Bidding?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:22 pm 
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Some Schmo wrote:
It's obvious. Putin has the pee tape.

Must you hold a small indiscretion with a trio of prostitutes in the Moscow Sheraton and its recording by Russian agents against him forever?

What about all the Russian investments in Trump Enterprises as an alternate explanation?

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