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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:05 am 
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I think we've lost something when teenagers no longer work in food service as a first job because companies prefer cheap and lifelong illegal immigrant labor. Too many young people just don't understand work or the value of a dollar.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:10 am 
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ajax18 wrote:
I think we've lost something when teenagers no longer work in food service as a first job because companies prefer cheap and lifelong illegal immigrant labor. Too many young people just don't understand work or the value of a dollar.

What we've lost is respect for what is real. It's easier to blame immigrants for everything than to actually ____ think.

You're a lazy moron.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:11 am 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
And then there are naïve people on the internet who think that taking a swipe at a whole profession and the people who engage in it, makes them look smart. When what it really does is make them look like a complete ass who doesn't know ____ and has no insight to draw from.


You were fine until here. I know you sometimes like to pile on when you never took the time to understand what I was saying and more importantly not saying. I never took a swipe at a whole profession. The point was not that serious, and was only about a universal wisdom of not eating food from your enemy. A lot of us have worked in the food industry, and while the vast majority are very good, we all know there are some who do such things.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:17 am 
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ajax18 wrote:
I think we've lost something when teenagers no longer work in food service as a first job because companies prefer cheap and lifelong illegal immigrant labor.


Like Trump and his companies.

Quote:
Too many young people just don't understand work or the value of a dollar.


You must be getting old. Older generations always love to say this about the younger ones.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:57 am 
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Themis wrote:
ajax18 wrote:
I think we've lost something when teenagers no longer work in food service as a first job because companies prefer cheap and lifelong illegal immigrant labor.

Like Trump and his companies.

Well, Trump legally hires foreign labour for seasonal work at Mar a Lago, and gets them visas. He apparently thinks that either Americans would not be up to doing hard stuff like waitering and cooking, or that they would not want to do it for the kind of wages he is prepared to offer.

Remember, by the way, that Mar a Lago serves very, very rich people. If the wages of the staff were increased to a level sufficient to attract Americans, is it likely that the customers would stop coming? Nah.

Not that Trump really gives Americans much of a chance to apply for these jobs anyway:

Quote:
During a Republican primary debate, Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) grilled Trump on hiring foreign workers at his resorts. Trump responded that it’s “hard to find” U.S. workers, getting visas for foreign workers is “legal,” and his company had “no choice.”

Companies are required to run two want ads in local newspapers before applying for foreign worker visas. Mar-a-Lago chose to place two hard-to-find classified ads in tiny type with no phone number or email information, according to a Washington Post report in August. Workers could apply only by fax or mail.

CareerSource Palm Beach County, a nonprofit placement agency, told The Palm Beach Post that there are many Americans eager to work at Mar-a-Lago. “We currently have 5,136 qualified candidates in Palm Beach County for various hospitality positions,” spokesman Tom Veenstra said

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:42 pm 
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You know the saying "I don't agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it?" I think that applies in this case.

I certainly don't agree with what the restaurant owner did, but I think we're allowed to discriminate against people because of their politics, so the owner should be able to deny her service.

I would also support people in boycotting the restaurant, but threatening phone calls (or even fake negative reviews on Yelp) are inappropriate.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:10 pm 
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I do think it is relevant that the "politics" we are talking about is being a perpetually deceptive propaganda minister for a regime subjecting children to human rights violations. The notion that it is wrong to politely refuse to serve such a person doesn't sit well with me.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:13 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
I do think it is relevant that the "politics" we are talking about is being a perpetually deceptive propaganda minister for a regime subjecting children to human rights violations. The notion that it is wrong to politely refuse to serve such a person doesn't sit well with me.


Well, when you put it like that...


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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:29 pm 
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All I know is that after Waters this morning on the news...this ain't gonna work! So wrong on many levels..it will not solve..but evolve a huge problem. If we go the way of slamming government the way we do...why vote..why do anything at all?


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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:51 pm 
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Themis wrote:
You must be getting old.


So are you.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:53 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:

[...]

Preparing and serving food to order is some of the most demanding work you'll ever do in your life, it will teach you about human social behavior like not many other jobs will (John Q. Public can be incredibly rude when it comes to food or take out their troubles on you simply because you are "there"), make you become adaptable, it requires the ability to multitask like a demon, stay on your feet for long hours because good luck getting a break when you're working with a skeleton crew.

[...]

And then there are naïve people on the internet who think that taking a swipe at a whole profession and the people who engage in it, makes them look smart. When what it really does is make them look like a complete ass who doesn't know ____ and has no insight to draw from.


Couldn't agree more. It's very hard work, and the people who do it for us deserve to be spoken to like human beings rather than the vending and serving machines that all too many people treat them as.


Try it in Jersey!
:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:56 pm 
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Themis wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
And then there are naïve people on the internet who think that taking a swipe at a whole profession and the people who engage in it, makes them look smart. When what it really does is make them look like a complete ass who doesn't know ____ and has no insight to draw from.


You were fine until here. I know you sometimes like to pile on when you never took the time to understand what I was saying and more importantly not saying. I never took a swipe at a whole profession. The point was not that serious, and was only about a universal wisdom of not eating food from your enemy. A lot of us have worked in the food industry, and while the vast majority are very good, we all know there are some who do such things.


Oh look I got a report card. So according to you, two posts on one thread that are both critical of your comments constitutes a "pile on".

:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:05 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
Themis wrote:
You must be getting old.


So are you.


True, but I haven't started complaining about that younger generation, yet. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:31 pm 
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https://www.thedailybeast.com/trumpkins ... p?ref=home

"Confused Trumpkins Harass, Send Death Threats to Wrong Red Hen After Sarah Huckabee Sanders Flap
At least three Red Hen restaurants have dealt with angry Trump supporters after an unrelated Virginia eatery of the same name gave the boot to the White House press secretary."

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:29 pm 
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ajax18 wrote:
I think we've lost something when teenagers no longer work in food service as a first job because companies prefer cheap and lifelong illegal immigrant labor. Too many young people just don't understand work or the value of a dollar.


I don't really agree with your above. I think there is reason to suspect that there was a period of time when teens often became displaced by older workers who lost their jobs and moved into what we think of as entry level minimum wage positions in the food service industry. For all I know, this is still taking place. I am sure that immigrant labor may be a factor, but I don't think that really explains it in full.

I'm pretty sure that McDonalds, for example, has a pay chart and franchise owners don't deviate from it on account of immigrant status. I could be wrong. It doesn't make sense to me that they would do that.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:10 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
Chap wrote:
Couldn't agree more. It's very hard work, and the people who do it for us deserve to be spoken to like human beings rather than the vending and serving machines that all too many people treat them as.


Try it in Jersey!


The restaurant work or the being nice to waiting staff? I can't speak for the first, but I've found the second works pretty well everywhere I've tried it. Mark you, I'd have to learn to speak a bit of Jersey first, since it doesn't work unless you show the degree of respect implied in not insisting on speaking English wherever and whenever.

Is there a Rosetta Stone course?

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:12 pm 
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statement from "red hen":
"I have a business, and I want the business to thrive," owner Stephanie Wilkinson later told the Washington Post.

"This feels like the moment in our democracy when people have to make uncomfortable actions and decisions to uphold their morals," she continued.


if a Republican cake baker had said this (spolier: they kinda did), the hair fires would light the night sky! (oh yeah, they kinda did...made a federal case of it they did....the irony is delicious).

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:51 pm 
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Quote:

I don't really agree with your above. I think there is reason to suspect that there was a period of time when teens often became displaced by older workers who lost their jobs and moved into what we think of as entry level minimum wage positions in the food service industry. For all I know, this is still taking place. I am sure that immigrant labor may be a factor, but I don't think that really explains it in full.

I'm pretty sure that McDonalds, for example, has a pay chart and franchise owners don't deviate from it on account of immigrant status. I could be wrong. It doesn't make sense to me that they would do that.


I can agree with your point. My main point was I see a lot of young Americans who think food service is beneath them.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:47 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
statement from "red hen":
"I have a business, and I want the business to thrive," owner Stephanie Wilkinson later told the Washington Post.

"This feels like the moment in our democracy when people have to make uncomfortable actions and decisions to uphold their morals," she continued.


if a Republican cake baker had said this (spolier: they kinda did), the hair fires would light the night sky! (oh yeah, they kinda did...made a federal case of it they did....the irony is delicious).


There are more and less valid reasons to refuse service to someone. Because they are black or gay? Not good. Because they are amoral vipers whose lies are destroying the fabric of the world's oldest democracy? Probably Ok.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:57 pm 
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I saw this thread retweeted from a CATO fellow that I more or less agree with:

https://twitter.com/drvox/status/1010976215358844928

It's in response to the Washington Post editorial calling for "civility" that represents well the establishment media's reaction to this story:

Quote:
1. Unsurprisingly, this bit of kneejerk onanism from the Washington Post editorial board completely misses the significance of this whole episode. In fact, it gets it wrong in exactly the same way Very Serious People have been getting in wrong in DC for decades.

2. The salient fact about US politics is that the right has been going steadily more crazy for decades -- breaking the law, disregarding norms, sinking into a hermetically sealed media bubble filled with paranoid conspiracy theories, seeking to disenfranchise opponents, etc.

3. At every stage, it gets worse. Norms & values we thought inviolate are crapped on, lawlessness becomes more brazen, ugly prejudices we thought buried, or at least suppressed, roar back to the surface. And with every increment, the question re-presents itself:

4. What should the rest of us do? The ~25% of Americans who believe & want horrible, illiberal ____ ("deplorables," you might call them) have taken over the GOP. They are driving it toward fascism as fast as the system will allow them. What's the right response?

5. For years, lefties have been warning about this devolution of the GOP, going back to Reagan. They have been dismissed as crazy partisan hippies, condemned as "uncivil," told they are part of the problem, because being mad about illiberalism is just like illiberalism.

6. The question has always been, where do you draw the line? At what point in the GOP's devolution do we say: OK, that's too far. We're no longer in Normal Politics. We're in a crisis situation, on the verge of losing our democracy. Where is the line?

7. The most insidious thing about the descent into illiberalism is that it is incremental. There's no dramatic moment, no Rubicon. Every step seems bad, but only a little worse than the previous step. Smart autocrats are careful not to provide that moment.

8. As this slide into illiberalism has continued, the mainstream DC establishment, including the sorts of Very Serious People that write major newspaper editorials, have *helped prevent that moment*. They have normalized, normalized, normalized, greasing the skids.

9. When lefties have tried to draw a line, create a moment, force a reckoning, the establishment has united in a single voice to say: calm down. Let's be civil & work together. Let's not raise our voices or be shrill. Both sides do it. We're still in Normal Politics.

10. Now here we are with a president who very openly pines for tyranny, explicitly disregards laws & norms, is nakedly racist, lies as often as he breathes, and oh yeah, is now JAILING TODDLERS TO DETER LEGAL IMMIGRATION.

11. By jailing toddlers, Trump has potentially made a mistake. Instead of incremental illiberalism, this seems like a jump, something to shock the conscience. It is yet another opportunity for a Moment, a time for the rest of us to say: no. This is not normal. It's not ok.

12. That what's the owner of the Red Hen was doing by refusing to serve Sanders: saying, No. This is not just a normal political dispute that can remain confined to the political sphere. You cannot support this & still expect to be treated like a normal, decent person.

13. The owner was trying to draw a line, disrupt the normal daily patterns of civility & accommodation, create a Moment around which people can rally to echo the message: No. This is not normal, not "just politics." We must stop pretending it is; we must snap out of hypnosis.

14. And so, right on cue, the Very Serious People ride to the rescue of the aspiring tyrants, saying, yet again: Calm Down. Let's not get crazy here. Let's not be RUDE. Heavens no. We must retain our decorum at all costs.

15. Washington Post editors say that accepting incivility (gasp) is a "slippery slope." But that gets it exactly wrong. WE ARE ALREADY ON THE SLIPPERY SLOPE. It's a slope that leads to illiberalism, violence, & collapse. It's a slope greased accommodation & civility.

16. What the Red Hen owner (& others) are trying to do is jerk us awake, push of OFF the slippery slope. They're trying desperately to draw a line, to cease the slide. And every time they try -- even now, even to this day, even with toddlers in cages -- the MSM scolds them.

17. The Very Serious People who serve as tone police in DC need to decide what they value more: democracy or civility. Because we're just sliding, sliding, sliding down this slope, pretending all the while that things are still Normal. To get off the slide ...

18. ... will, almost by definition, require a break with Normal. It will require some sand in the gears, some raised voices, some violations of decorum and precedent. I dunno if restaurant service is the right mechanism, or even a good one. No one knows.

19. The Washington Post editorial board, like the MSM establishment more generally, has been utterly ____ useless in slowing our slide to illiberalism. They've done nothing but obscure what's happening behind a veneer of Normal. They have failed. But for the luvagod ...

20. ... the very least they can do is refrain from concern trolling citizens who are (RIGHTLY) in a panic about the loss of their country. Maybe the agents of this cruelty, the ones lying on its behalf, should feel a little discomfort. There are worse things in the world. </fin>


What I'd disagree with here is the assumption that the owner was trying to "send a message." Others take a message from the story, no doubt, but I suspect she was just trying to be respectful to her staff by not having them feel forced to serve their oppressor. I agree that there is such a thing as going too far. It's possible for a government official to act so heinously that they no longer deserve to exist in polite company without being shunned. Political civility doesn't require authority worship.

More than all of this, though, I'm mostly annoyed that this story is sucking up so much oxygen and not, you know, things like the President of the United States attempting to drum up support for denying due process rights for the accused. Those are the sentiments that if realized cause and deserve a bloody revolution, and here CNN is focused more on a polite request to leave a restaurant.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:05 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
subgenius wrote:
statement from "red hen":
"I have a business, and I want the business to thrive," owner Stephanie Wilkinson later told the Washington Post.

"This feels like the moment in our democracy when people have to make uncomfortable actions and decisions to uphold their morals," she continued.


if a Republican cake baker had said this (spolier: they kinda did), the hair fires would light the night sky! (oh yeah, they kinda did...made a federal case of it they did....the irony is delicious).


There are more and less valid reasons to refuse service to someone. Because they are black or gay? Not good. Because they are amoral vipers whose lies are destroying the fabric of the world's oldest democracy? Probably Ok.

The challenge with this is that morality is at the core for conservative arguments against same sex marriage and abortion rights. Making the moral stand of the person making the decision the grounds for justifying refusing service is playing the bias game. Your view of what is amoral and that of Jeff Sessions are miles apart. Saying you just have a better grasp of what morality actually is would be a step backwards in the fight for equal protection. I can't believe it would stand up against past rulings.

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