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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:50 am 
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subgenius wrote:
I mean is not such proclamations like "moral high ground" in this context nothing more than "my way or the highway"?

A moral high ground determined by strict adherence to a particular religious dogma would seem to be the least flexible and best match for “my way or the highway”, while perhaps also being no less flimsy than any perceived worst offender.

What forms the basis of your own?


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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:57 am 
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honorentheos wrote:
Biden's staff specifically asked him if he would sell him cookies and they would make it into a photo opportunity for the VP. He was asked if he would participate in a political act and he said no because he wasn't supportive of that political side. Biden didn't just show up to buy some cookies and was refused service. It's not the same thing and to argue it is makes it clear there is a big gap in your understanding as to what was going on in both cases.

Honor, aren’t these two separate items? The reason why Biden and Sanders were in (or intending to be) their respective destinations differs, but the reason for refusal of service is essentially the same (the proprietor’s disagreement with the political view or attitude expressed by Sanders or Biden)?

ETA: maybe not so similar, but similarly justified. One could argue that the Red Hen’s proprietor refused service to Sanders because of her behavior, although that behavior wasn’t manifesting inside of the restaurant.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:28 am 
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canpakes wrote:
subgenius wrote:
I mean is not such proclamations like "moral high ground" in this context nothing more than "my way or the highway"?

A moral high ground determined by strict adherence to a particular religious dogma would seem to be the least flexible and best match for “my way or the highway”, while perhaps also being no less flimsy than any perceived worst offender.

What forms the basis of your own?

the basis of mine is not being proclaimed here...perhaps you should pose that question to the posters who are screaming about moral high ground.
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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:40 am 
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canpakes wrote:
honorentheos wrote:
Biden's staff specifically asked him if he would sell him cookies and they would make it into a photo opportunity for the VP. He was asked if he would participate in a political act and he said no because he wasn't supportive of that political side. Biden didn't just show up to buy some cookies and was refused service. It's not the same thing and to argue it is makes it clear there is a big gap in your understanding as to what was going on in both cases.

Honor, aren’t these two separate items? The reason why Biden and Sanders were in (or intending to be) their respective destinations differs, but the reason for refusal of service is essentially the same (the proprietor’s disagreement with the political view or attitude expressed by Sanders or Biden)?

ETA: maybe not so similar, but similarly justified. One could argue that the Red Hen’s proprietor refused service to Sanders because of her behavior, although that behavior wasn’t manifesting inside of the restaurant.

In the case of Biden, the act in question that was refused was not that of commerce. Rather, the commerce was being used as the context for a larger political act. That being, it was intended to be a feel good, VP out buying cookies from a local business that also happened to be captured on camera.

Sanders went to a restaurant to engage in normal commerce. Apparently she was there to have a meal just as every other customer in the establishment was there to do. She was no different than every other person allowed to eat there that evening in terms of what she expected from the restaurant.

The restaurant can't make an argument that serving her makes them complicit in her political activities any more than a Christian baker can claim that providing a wedding cake to a same-sex couple makes them a participant in a same-sex wedding. But in the case of the cookie store owner, he was being asked to engage with Biden in making a political promotion.

These are clearly two different cases.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:43 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
honorentheos wrote:
Up thread I made the point that to argue the restaurant was in the right to refuse service to Sanders because of her culpability in acts deemed immoral is to create a gatekeeper role similar to that of the religious arguments overturned during the last century that hinge on the implied shared understanding any decent person would similarly agree with the gatekeeper's prerogative. While there are plenty of accepted and established reasons for a business to refuse someone service in a place of public accommodation, basing it on their moral standing as defined narrowly by one group of people has already been debated and lost.


Every single reason short of physical impossibility for refusing service or being allowed to refuse service is grounded in moral justification. It is inherent to the claim. "You ought not to be served" or "I ought to not have to serve you" just are fundamentally moral statements regardless of the reasons supplied to justify them. This includes things like No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service and kicking out rude customers. Kicking out someone for being a jerk is refusing service on the basis of moral standing.

And they can be defined neutrally. It doesn't matter who you are otherwise, if you are being a jerk in a restaurant then the owner has the right to refuse you service. It applies to everyone equally.

If you can make the same neutral argument to justify refusing Sanders service, please do.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:44 am 
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Thanks, honor. That sheds more light on what is posted upstream.

I can empathize with the Red Hen’s proprietor but I have a hard time justifying kicking Sanders out, given the circumstances.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:06 am 
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i should be able to go into any public restaurant and order a sandwich; be served that sandwich; and then eat that sandwich without my shirt or my shoes. Class warfare hidden behind pesky health department rules or "liberty" has got to stop....and it needs to stop via snapchat or instagram.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:08 am 
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And right on cue, here come the attacks on public accommodation. Such being the bedrock of so-called religious liberty types.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:29 am 
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subgenius wrote:
Class warfare hidden behind pesky health department rules or "liberty" has got to stop...

Lol. This analogy hits a pretty high spot on the ‘stupidity’ scale. I’m sure that you could pose a better silly argument.
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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:42 am 
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honorentheos wrote:
And they can be defined neutrally. It doesn't matter who you are otherwise, if you are being a jerk in a restaurant then the owner has the right to refuse you service. It applies to everyone equally.

If you can make the same neutral argument to justify refusing Sanders service, please do.
Kicking someone out of a store for being a jerk treats everyone equally in the exact same sense that kicking someone out of a store for aiding putting children in internment camps does. Everyone has a free choice not to engage in that behavior to avoid that outcome. Everyone is judged by the same standard. Calling one criteria neutral but the other not is a fallacy. They both are moral judgements about the acceptability of people’s behavior. You can’t smuggle one in by calling it not moral or incorrrctly claiming it to be universal or neutral either. You just have to grapple with the fact that some moral opinions are right and others are not.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:04 am 
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subgenius wrote:
i should be able to go into any public restaurant and order a sandwich; be served that sandwich; and then eat that sandwich without my shirt or my shoes. Class warfare hidden behind pesky health department rules or "liberty" has got to stop....and it needs to stop via snapchat or instagram.


At a snack-stall on the beach, yes.

But not in 'any public restaurant'. Because in many of them your shirtless and shoeless presence would be so offensive to those present, regardless of any other factor, that the ability of other patrons to enjoy what they have paid for would be ruined.

The law specifically protects you from discrimination on many grounds, such as race or gender. But not on all grounds: you could not expect to be served if you entered the restaurant in an offensively unwashed and smelly state, for instance.

This has got little do do with class: in the US pretty well nobody is shirtless and shoeless just because they are poor or working class. So why do you bring that in?

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:39 pm 
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Chap wrote:
subgenius wrote:
i should be able to go into any public restaurant and order a sandwich; be served that sandwich; and then eat that sandwich without my shirt or my shoes. Class warfare hidden behind pesky health department rules or "liberty" has got to stop....and it needs to stop via snapchat or instagram.


At a snack-stall on the beach, yes.

separate but equal?

Chap wrote:
But not in 'any public restaurant'. Because in many of them your shirtless and shoeless presence would be so offensive to those present, regardless of any other factor, that the ability of other patrons to enjoy what they have paid for would be ruined.

As i alluded to in my post, the shirt/shoes policy is solely due to health regulations and not "ambiance".

Chap wrote:
The law specifically protects you from discrimination on many grounds, such as race or gender. But not on all grounds: you could not expect to be served if you entered the restaurant in an offensively unwashed and smelly state, for instance.

Yes, adequate personal hygiene is so often a trait among all classes of people who seek table service...but such decisive legal measures like "adequate" are certainly making your point, eh?

Chap wrote:
This has got little do do with class: in the US pretty well nobody is shirtless and shoeless just because they are poor or working class. So why do you bring that in?

You obviously are unaware of Kenny Chesney.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:42 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
And right on cue, here come the attacks on public accommodation. Such being the bedrock of so-called religious liberty types.

i thought my quip was pretty overt....even i am a little surprised at how deep the presuppositions are running.
Do i really come across as a champion for the shirtless and shoe-less diners out there?

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:20 pm 
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Quote:
Kicking someone out of a store for being a jerk treats everyone equally in the exact same sense that kicking someone out of a store for aiding putting children in internment camps does.


If separating illegal immigrant children from parents is wrong I guess that includes half the country since half the country believes we should stop illegal immigrants at the border and not let them into the country which is probably more harsh than putting them in an internment camp.

You're basically at war with anyone who doesn't agree with open borders and see such belief as justification for harrassing, ostracizing, and even killing US citizens as Maxine Waters is calling for right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:22 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
*disconnected word salad*

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:16 pm 
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Quote:
As i alluded to in my post, the shirt/shoes policy is solely due to health regulations and not "ambiance".

Noting that a person could be just as dirty or clean with a shirt or without, and noting that there are some subtle differences between the two sexes, I'm betting that one could identify another reason for a ‘shirtless or shoeless’ policy, especially considering how many folks are too uptight to even tolerate the sight of a breastfeeding woman in public.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:59 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
honorentheos wrote:
And they can be defined neutrally. It doesn't matter who you are otherwise, if you are being a jerk in a restaurant then the owner has the right to refuse you service. It applies to everyone equally.

If you can make the same neutral argument to justify refusing Sanders service, please do.
Kicking someone out of a store for being a jerk treats everyone equally in the exact same sense that kicking someone out of a store for aiding putting children in internment camps does.

This is the kind of hyperbole that gets into subjective territory where you have to create a moral gatekeeper rather than having a neutral, equally applied condition. Sanders is the spokesperson for Trump whose zero tolerance policy led to terrible outcomes I deeply oppose. I wasn't for Obamas approach in 2014 and I don't think that it is analogous to what Trump is doing but there is a clear partisan line that would define whether or not someone felt the actions crossed beyond basic concepts of human decency in both cases. The idea that what is going on is putting kids in internment camps isn't the same as someone coming into an establishment and behaving in a way that would get them kicked out for disrupting the business, creating unsafe or unhealthy conditions, or what ever other criteria you would put up against the moral judgment.

Your example parallels arguments overturned in the past, and closely followed today, that assume a certain kind of prejudicial "normal person" exercising "good judgment". The line between discrimination and justly refusing service is defined by your belief in your superior judgment and anyone who has equally good judgment would concur with your decision. Just as jurisdictions made laws that were overturned because they assume as a given any decent human being would know when a person is being a culty creep disturbing the peace or that anyone getting married is free to do it in the godly, Biblically sanctioned way.

As you say yourself -
Quote:
You just have to grapple with the fact that some moral opinions are right and others are not.
When moral opinion is your criteria, you're already down the wrong path.

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Last edited by honorentheos on Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:03 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
honorentheos wrote:
And right on cue, here come the attacks on public accommodation. Such being the bedrock of so-called religious liberty types.

i thought my quip was pretty overt....even i am a little surprised at how deep the presuppositions are running.
Do i really come across as a champion for the shirtless and shoe-less diners out there?

No. You came across as sarcastically putting up an argument against the idea of public accommodation that is usually the starting point for making the argument they unjustly infringe on religious liberty. The shirtless and shoeless being stand-ins for some other class of person you sincerely believe a business ought to be able to refused service for reasons tied to more narrow moral views than public health and safety.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:32 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
This is the kind of hyperbole that gets into subjective territory where you have to create a moral gatekeeper rather than having a neutral, equally applied condition.


I think you need to define "neutral" here, because I offered a neutral, equally applied condition. All you need to do to have equality in this case is treat everyone according to the same criteria. You can tailor that criteria however you want and preserve its neutrality and equality.


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Your example parallels arguments overturned in the past, and closely followed today, that assume a certain kind of prejudicial "normal person" exercising "good judgment".


No it doesn't. I think almost everyone can be wrong about proper reasons for discrimination and improper ones. I just think there exist proper and improper reasons for discrimination and people are persuadable creatures about what is and is not right. So do you, as does everybody, but you seem to think your moral opinions are so self-evident that they aren't even to be considered moral opinions. This is not a virtue of your stance, but a crippling flaw.

Quote:
When moral opinion is your criteria, you're already down the wrong path.


You've offered nothing but moral opinions. Any statement about what people ought to do or what the law ought to be is necessarily a moral claim. Oughtness is inherently, definitively moral. The position that it is Ok to kick someone out of a restaurant for showing up naked, but not because they are black is nothing but a moral distinction. The word "Ok" is can be only given persuasive force with moral justification.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:53 pm 
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Using the term internment camps is not neutral, and is the kind of language that one agrees with if they view Trump's actions as accomplishing this. It leaves it to a person's bias to determine if Sanders qualifies or if the establishment could refuse to serve anyone who was supportive of Obama because of his actions being construed to be internment camps.

I keep coming back to the concept of the moral gatekeeper required in your argument that exists external to the rule but rather functions as the decider to whom the rules apply. When left to examine the question of whether or not Sanders could justly be refused service in an establishment where public accommodation is considered a right, the argument that it is justified relies on discrimination based on one's own views as to the politics and behaviors of Donald Trump. It makes the political views of a particular side the moral framework used to judge whether or not she should be treated differently. We're left with the clear problem that this turns the concept of public accommodation into political ping pong.

If applying the civil rights act as gatekeeper, as was done regarding same sex marriage before such was nationally recognized, cannot serve as the neutral gatekeeper we turn the concept into a joke rather than a foundational premise on which to stand when defending civil rights generally. I guess I'm not up to the task to take it much beyond that, but to me there is an obvious issue when comparing the arguments being made to defend refusing Sanders service and arguments for refusing service to others who most on this board would probably agree deserve protection in order to ensure public accommodation.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:20 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
Using the term internment camps is not neutral,
It's what they are. It already is a euphemism, and I don't feel the need to adopt a euphamism of a euphamism because it pleases a political faction that wants to use them. But the neat thing here is if you don't like that word, you can't change it to anyone you want - let's say happy camps - and the substance of what they are does not change one iota.

(If memory serves, the Supreme Court decision green-lighting Japanese internment camps also made this complaint, but it might've been a complaint about the term concentration camp.)

Quote:
I keep coming back to the concept of the moral gatekeeper required in your argument

It exists in any argument for any position about whether businesses should or should not allow people to be served or be allowed to make those decisions for themselves. It exists for every single law. Rules for how people can or should behave are moral things.

Since you also have ideas about who businesses should or should not serve, or be allowed to, you are also proposing a moral gatekeeper in the form of yourself and those like-minded. It's just that you can't seem to recognize your arguments as moral ones too.


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