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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:33 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
honorentheos wrote:
Using the term internment camps is not neutral,
It's what they are. It already is a euphemism, and I don't feel the need to adopt a euphamism of a euphamism because it pleases a political faction that wants to use them. But the neat thing here is if you don't like that word, you can't change it to anyone you want - let's say happy camps - and the substance of what they are does not change one iota.

(If memory serves, the Supreme Court decision green-lighting Japanese internment camps also made this complaint, but it might've been a complaint about the term concentration camp.)

This idea that using internment camp is already a euphemism doesn't flip the switch to say, "Ah...yeah this is a subjective thing" suggests we're not going to bridge what seems apparent.

Look at how this is playing out in the public sphere:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lot-r ... ment-camp/

You suggest that it is a neutral criteria for judging whether or not refusing service to Sanders could be justified while implicitly being unable to avoid it being prejudicial partisan judgments that are required to justify it.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:39 pm 
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I suggest you aren't using the word "neutral" clear fashion, and it is neutral in the sense of that the business owner can and probably does apply it regardless of the person's other traits. If by "neutral" you mean something like, "not taking a political side" then no it's not neutral, but why should it be? Making businesses serve blacks or allowing them to turn away naked people isn't neutral in that sense either. And better still, explain why should it be without using a moral argument. (Pro-tip: any explaination of why it should be will necessarily be moral, so good luck with that.)

An internment camp is a prison camp for prisoners of war, political prisoners, persecuted minorities, or aliens especially without or prior to a fair trial. What we are talking about is literally an internment camp, and the phrase is already euphemistic for concentration camp. Disputing its use is like demanding that we call practices that are clearly torture "enhanced interrogation" on the nonsense scale.

When people talked about the risk of Trump's victory leading to a normalization of previously unacceptable practices, this would be a good case in point. It's got you taking the side of people putting toddlers into internment camps in a rhetorical dispute over what to call internment camps so their defenders can obscure how bad what they are doing sounds.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:47 pm 
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To my knowledge the historical cases where discrimination has been viewed as a right required the explicit description of the bias involved in the identify and message of the organization or establishment, and that they be a private organization. For example, the Boy Scouts withstood suits for being discriminatory towards females and homosexuals on the grounds their very identity was defined by being a organization for males and that their oath and other core beliefs included values that were contradicted by admitting homosexuals. Of course they've evolved to where they now admit both, but their right to limit who they associated with because to do so was considered infringing on their right to associate by definition as a male religion-based organization was successfully defended on multiple occassions.

The restaurant could not make this claim when attempting to argue that associating with Sarah Sanders as a customer would violate their rights. They are a public establishment that fits the general description where public accommodation is protected.

By definition, they have to be neutral in how they would refuse service. Putting up a sign that said they reserve the right to refuse service to anyone who associates with the President of the United States would be blatantly discriminatory as there is nothing about the Red Hen that suggests it's identity as an establishment is affected by associating with Sarah Sanders or any other associate of the President. Putting up a sign that says they reserve the right to refuse service to anyone who sends kids to internment camps would be discriminatory when they then point to it when they tell Sarah Sanders to take her business elsewhere because again there is nothing about their identity as an establishment that is affected by Sarah Sanders eating their chicken.

The concept of neutrality is built into their identity as a public establishment required to provide public accommodation. To be able to justifiably argue they could refuse to serve Sarah Sanders, they would need to show that her association with their establishment is a burden on their ability to be a public restaurant. Being unhygienic meets this neutral criteria that allows them to refuse service. Refusing to admit a group that would put them in violation of fire safety standards would be another example of a clearly neutral criteria that allows them to refuse service.

Making a public restaurant into a vehicle for public protest violates any reasonable concept of public accommodation.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:24 pm 
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Gunnar wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:
Sadly, this country cares not for moral high ground. What they care for is ____.

Largely true, but that doesn't stop people from falsely claiming the moral high ground on the flimsiest of pretexts when trying to justify screwing over someone else.

And it just goes to show that the GOP and people dedicated to voting GOP are complete hypocrites. You could pick any day in Drumpf's administration (seriously - any day), and if Obama had done the same things Drumpf did, Republicans and their base would be apoplectic.

They're full for hypocritical ____.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:39 am 
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Some Schmo wrote:
And it just goes to show that the GOP and people dedicated to voting GOP are complete hypocrites. You could pick any day in Drumpf's administration (seriously - any day), and if Obama had done the same things Drumpf did, Republicans and their base would be apoplectic.

They're full for hypocritical ____.

I certainly agree that GOP hypocrisy knows no bounds. For this and other reasons, Trump and the current crop of Republicans who support him are the greatest threat to our democracy I have seen in my long lifetime!

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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:21 am 
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honorentheos wrote:
Or get sarcasm. You really talked pass cafe crema because you failed to understand what she was saying.


Went away still pissed, there is a very big difference between respecting what some one does and pitying them for doing it. Condescending comes in when one feels you are being nice to the overworked person in front of you because they are in this low position instead of viewing them as a professional in their occupation, a a person who takes pride in what they do not an object of pity.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:06 am 
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There is no contradiction between thinking that the job someone is doing is so demanding, unpleasant, and ill-paid that you feel sorry for them and hope they will have better luck in their next job, and feeling respect for the fact that they are still putting their all into the damn job, and doing the best they can to provide a decent service to the customers they have to deal with.

Of course it is the respect that you articulate to them as an act of decency and human solidarity. They don't need you to tell them that they have a crappy job - they probably feel that most of the time - but they do need to be reminded that somebody is grateful for what they do and recognises what they put into it.

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