It is currently Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:18 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 85 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:42 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:23 am
Posts: 12518
Location: On the imaginary axis
Dr. Shades wrote:
...
Every element in our solar system heavier than helium--to include every element in us--was formed when our original star went supernova. The resulting nebulaic cloud condensed to form our current solar system as it exists today.

So, the "stardust" (a.k.a., every element heavier than helium) of our bodies didn't even come from faraway stars, much less faraway galaxies.


You're probably right about the 'distant galaxies' point. But I don't think you'll find that you can get all the elements found on earth from a single supernova. See for instance this annotated periodic table at

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap171024.html

Image

Dr. Shades wrote:
It's all quite predictable and mundane.


It took a lot of very clever and dedicated people years of work to find that stuff out. The fact that it was possible for human beings to do that made me feel a little proud of our species, not a feeling I often have nowadays.

But now it turns out that we could just have asked you and saved ourselves all that trouble. The universe is now a slightly duller place than it was before ...

_________________
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:53 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 10181
Location: Your mother's purse
canpakes wrote:
subgenius wrote:
... because they maintain the Christian traditions that permeate their society/life/existence....they have no other well to draw from.

Looks like you are putting the cart before the horse. It appears that what you could call “Christian tradition” can also be seen to exist outside of that religion, and has a history predating it, as well.

Yes, and I never claimed that Christianity was the point of origin...what i did claim was that modern Western atheists are the product of Christian traditions. That atheists were raised and educated in an environment "permeated" with Christianity with regards to culture, custom, and "etiquette". So, while "do not steal" can be found elsewhere and in other times, the society with which the modern atheist exists within found "do not steal" because of Christianity and by how Christianity translated such.

see the difference?

canpakes wrote:
You can try to credit “Christianity” with being the source of social order and common sense, but you won’t find many folks in your corner, especially given that a break from strict religious thought helped push the Enlightenment along.

But i did not try to credit Christianity with being the "source" per se...merely the means by which the modern atheist came to know of such things like social order and common sense.

But perhaps you disagree that over the past 2 centuries the majority of Americans did not spend their formative years within walking distance of a Christian church, or having grandparents that were Christians, or pledging allegiance to a nation "under God", or hearing the "golden rule", or learning about Jesus....yes, i am sure there is just an overwhelming majority of atheists in western civilization that look puzzled when you ask them "ever heard of the ten commandments" or "adam and eve"?

Dude, I did not claim that Christianity was the fountainhead so don't argue what is not being argued...all i said is that the Christian tradition is an inescapable foundation for every self-proclaimed atheist....or do you suddenly want to proclaim "Darwin be damned" and dismiss your own belief that environmental influence exists and an individual person possess a magical-supernatural power for free-will?

_________________
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:23 am 
God

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:39 am
Posts: 13683
Quote:
But perhaps you disagree that over the past 2 centuries the majority of Americans did not spend their formative years within walking distance of a Christian church, or having grandparents that were Christians, or pledging allegiance to a nation "under God", or hearing the "golden rule", or learning about Jesus.

"Under God" was added to the pledge in the mid 1950's after a political campaign by the Knights of Columbus, so maybe Christianity didn't do enough to bless you with a foundation of math.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:53 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:54 am
Posts: 5022
subgenius wrote:
Dude, I did not claim that Christianity was the fountainhead so don't argue what is not being argued...all i said is that the Christian tradition is an inescapable foundation for every self-proclaimed atheist...

There you go, again.

It’s only a foundation if you insist that Christianity was the fountainhead. It wasn’t. If Christianity adopted or incorporated certain general existing sensibilities such as ‘do not kill’ into their own social codex - at least as long as doing so was more convenient than killing, at any particular moment - this does not then follow that atheist attitudes are dependent upon Christian values or beliefs.

But, please, feel free to type out a few more paragraphs of circular reasoning. I’ll go get a coffee while you slap a new post together.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:54 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 10181
Location: Your mother's purse
EAllusion wrote:
Quote:
But perhaps you disagree that over the past 2 centuries the majority of Americans did not spend their formative years within walking distance of a Christian church, or having grandparents that were Christians, or pledging allegiance to a nation "under God", or hearing the "golden rule", or learning about Jesus.

"Under God" was added to the pledge in the mid 1950's after a political campaign by the Knights of Columbus, so maybe Christianity didn't do enough to bless you with a foundation of math.

Yes, because among the list of examples, the pledge (from late 1890s) is the hinge upon which this whole point pivots - not really a sniper of context are ya?

_________________
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:01 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 10181
Location: Your mother's purse
canpakes wrote:
subgenius wrote:
Dude, I did not claim that Christianity was the fountainhead so don't argue what is not being argued...all i said is that the Christian tradition is an inescapable foundation for every self-proclaimed atheist...

There you go, again.

It’s only a foundation if you insist that Christianity was the fountainhead.

No, it is not...that is not how foundations work, ergo the whole difference in claiming something is an "origin" versus claiming it is a "foundation"...they are, in fact, mutually exclusive concepts.

canpakes wrote:
It wasn’t. If Christianity adopted or incorporated certain general existing sensibilities such as ‘do not kill’ into their own social codex - at least as long as doing so was more convenient than killing, at any particular moment - this does not then follow that atheist attitudes are dependent upon Christian values or beliefs.

Unless, the only way an atheist learned of the "sensibility" was through a Christian environment and as filtered by a Christian society.

canpakes wrote:
But, please, feel free to type out a few more paragraphs of circular reasoning. I’ll go get a coffee while you slap a new post together.

Circular is your thing and reasoning is something seemingly foreign to you, so I will keep it simple...apparently even that needs to be dumbed down a bit.

So, lets start slow:

1. Do you agree that something can be a "foundation" for something else without being the "origin"?
2. Are you the product of your environment?

see also previous post wherein:

Dude, I did not claim that Christianity was the fountainhead so don't argue what is not being argued...all i said is that the Christian tradition is an inescapable foundation for every self-proclaimed atheist....or do you suddenly want to proclaim "Darwin be damned" and dismiss your own belief that environmental influence exists and an individual person possess a magical-supernatural power for free-will?

_________________
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:09 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:54 am
Posts: 5022
subgenius wrote:
1. Do you agree that something can be a "foundation" for something else without being the "origin"?
2. Are you the product of your environment?

see also previous post wherein:
Dude, I did not claim that Christianity was the fountainhead so don't argue what is not being argued...all i said is that the Christian tradition is an inescapable foundation for every self-proclaimed atheist....or do you suddenly want to proclaim "Darwin be damned" and dismiss your own belief that environmental influence exists and an individual person possess a magical-supernatural power for free-will?

Your previous statement in this thread, in regard to atheists, is:

“... they have no other well to draw from.”

Foundation or genesis, that’s still incorrect. Sorry, chap.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:27 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 10181
Location: Your mother's purse
canpakes wrote:
“... they have no other well to draw from.”

Foundation or genesis, that’s still incorrect. Sorry, chap.

Yeah, you just saying "unh-uh" does not really form a convincing rebuttal, let alone refutation...but i get ya, its uncomfortable for you to be in a corner - but since 1492 the American atheist may have quenched their thirst with kool-aid, but the well water remains the same as does the bucket which retrieved it from its murky depths....with the hydrologic cycle being irrelevant to its crisp cool enjoyment, and the point.

Maybe another time, thanks.

_________________
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:39 am 
God

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:39 am
Posts: 13683
subgenius wrote:
Yes, because among the list of examples, the pledge (from late 1890s) is the hinge upon which this whole point pivots - not really a sniper of context are ya?


The pledge from the late 1890's contains no reference to God. That idea did not occur until after World War II and the practice was not widely adopted until the 1950's. Putting that in a list of things that has occurred for "the past 2 centuries" was humorous ignorance, but it reveals something more important underneath it. The fact that such a civic ritual was secular and in practice without any reference to God should start to tip you off that the dominance of Christianity in the United States is does not mean that the faith has had primacy in inculcating social order and common sense. There is a large, diverse body of secular thought, itself quite influential on people's ever evolving understanding what Christianity purports to preach, that wields considerable cultural influence.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:43 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:54 am
Posts: 5022
subgenius wrote:
canpakes wrote:

“... they have no other well to draw from.”

Foundation or genesis, that’s still incorrect. Sorry, chap.

Yeah, you just saying "unh-uh" does not really form a convincing rebuttal, let alone refutation...but i get ya, its uncomfortable for you to be in a corner - but since 1492 the American atheist may have quenched their thirst with kool-aid, but the well water remains the same as does the bucket which retrieved it from its murky depths....with the hydrologic cycle being irrelevant to its crisp cool enjoyment, and the point.
Maybe another time, thanks.

OK, so you got nuthin’.

Good luck elsewhere with your claim that ‘atheists have no other well to draw from than Christianity’ thing. And remember not to kill anyone for their desert real estate.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:51 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 10181
Location: Your mother's purse
EAllusion wrote:
subgenius wrote:
Yes, because among the list of examples, the pledge (from late 1890s) is the hinge upon which this whole point pivots - not really a sniper of context are ya?


The pledge from the late 1890's contains no reference to God. That idea did not occur until after World War II and the practice was not widely adopted until the 1950's. Putting that in a list of things that has occurred for "the past 2 centuries" was humorous ignorance, but it reveals something more important underneath it.

humorous ignorance is when one does not recognize context...the list is not exhaustive or comprehensive but, as lists like that will do, exhibits how Christianity permeates wide and diverse reaches of society for centuries. So, while the pledge and its reference did not apply in 1776, it certainly applies to almost every atheist alive today. Your fixation on the exception instead of the rule just isn't funny, but it is ignorant.

EAllusion wrote:
The fact that such a civic ritual was secular and in practice without any reference to God should start to tip you off that the dominance of Christianity in the United States is does not mean that the faith has had primacy in inculcating social order and common sense.

But it did, in fact and in reality...your very point here accentuates that fact whereas the "secular" allegiance became consumed by the prevalent Christian culture within about 60 years....the pledge suffered the same fate as what I am arguing - the inescapable influence of Christianity.

EAllusion wrote:
There is a large, diverse body of secular thought, itself quite influential on people's ever evolving understanding what Christianity purports to preach, that wields considerable cultural influence.

No one is disputing the width and breadth of secular thought...the point, which you insist upon side-stepping, is that the modern atheist (western) has unavoidably been steeped, exposed, and indoctrinated with Christian traditions (almost exclusively) since birth - and because of that, their foundation is as such.

Now, if you want to argue that people are not products of their environment then so be it, argue that....but your assertion that most American atheists were developed in an environment that was/is not overwhelmingly embellished with Christian traditions then you are just ignorant.

_________________
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:54 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 10181
Location: Your mother's purse
canpakes wrote:
Image

_________________
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:56 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:23 am
Posts: 12518
Location: On the imaginary axis
subgenius wrote:
... while "do not steal" can be found elsewhere and in other times, the society with which the modern atheist exists within found "do not steal" because of Christianity and by how Christianity translated such. ...


Nope. Really not.

Jesus didn't go around telling people 'don't steal', 'don't murder', and the rest of it. He took it for granted that was something that everybody in his audience of (mostly) Jews knew already. Early Christians like Paul even went out of their way to claim that their religion was specifically not about keeping rules. Similarly, people in the ancient pagan west observed and taught to their children the basic moral codes of truthfulness, honesty and promise-keeping without which normal social life and long-term commercial activity of any kind - is impossible. They would have continued to do so if Christianity had never existed. I don't refrain from stealing things because I was brought up as a Christian.

I have quite long experience of mixing with people from cultures where Christianity has historically never made much of an impact. They are no less kind, honest and truthful than the average European or American.

What IS distinctive to someone like me brought up in a Christian family that I would not have had if I had been brought up in a Jewish family, or a Buddhist family, is a vague sense that I have a burden of sin that is always there, and that I can never really get rid of on my own. Intellectually I reject that idea: but it is hard to wash out that stain - which was woven into my cloth. In that sense I am marked for life by the religion I came to reject. And not in a good way.

_________________
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:50 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:54 am
Posts: 5022
subgenius wrote:
canpakes wrote:
Image

Oh, I’m sorry that I said “you got nuthin”. You have a cute gif!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:17 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 10181
Location: Your mother's purse
canpakes wrote:
Oh, I’m sorry that I said “you got nuthin”. You have a cute gif!

and certainly accurate, which means i now have twice as much than what you brought to the table.

_________________
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:24 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:23 am
Posts: 12518
Location: On the imaginary axis
Children, children!

Maybe you need to start another thread so you can have fun there without disturbing others?

_________________
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:32 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:54 am
Posts: 5022
subgenius wrote:
canpakes wrote:
Oh, I’m sorry that I said “you got nuthin”. You have a cute gif!

and certainly accurate, which means i now have twice as much than what you brought to the table.

Once again, the renown failures of conservative math are on display. ‘One gif’ multiplied by ‘no gifs’ does not equal twice as much gifs, nor one good argument.

Your math skills demonstrated here appear to be on par with your philosophical reasoning.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:32 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:54 am
Posts: 5022
Chap wrote:
Children, children!

Maybe you need to start another thread so you can have fun there without disturbing others?

I suspect banishing him to the children’s table will only see him start to throw food.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:27 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:23 pm
Posts: 1264
Location: off the grid
Jeanne Dixon was one of the most esteemed and widely respected astrologers to ever live. Nancy Reagan employed her and other noted astrologists to include planning her husband's calendar, especially after his assassination attempt.

Jeanne's astrology forecast for my dob has been quite accurate throughput my life.

Nothing short of remarkable IMO.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:44 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:23 am
Posts: 12518
Location: On the imaginary axis
AmyJo wrote:
Jeanne Dixon was one of the most esteemed and widely respected astrologers to ever live. Nancy Reagan employed her and other noted astrologists to include planning her husband's calendar, especially after his assassination attempt.

Jeanne's astrology forecast for my dob has been quite accurate throughput my life.

Nothing short of remarkable IMO.


So we have some positive anecdotal evidence from you to the effect that you have a favorable evaluation of one astrologer's work.

One the other hand:

The detailed study I cited in an earlier post involved a good sample of astrologers selected by other astrologers as being expert, and a large number of persons whose horoscopes were cast. It suggests strongly that professional astrology is not in fact accurate:

viewtopic.php?p=1127227#p1127227

The conclusion of that study, published in the scientific journal Nature, included these words:

Quote:
We are now in a position to argue a surprisingly strong case against natal astrology as practiced by reputable astrologers. Great pains were taken to insure that the experiment was unbiased and to make sure that astrology was given every reasonable chance to succeed. It failed. Despite the fact that we worked with some of the best astrologers in the country, recommended by the advising astrologers for their expertise in astrology and in their ability to use the CPI, despite the fact that every reasonable suggestion made by advising astrologers was worked into the experiment, despite the fact that the astrologers approved the design and predicted 50% as the "minimum" effect they would expect to see, astrology failed to perform at a level better than chance.


Did you read that post, where I quoted full information on the study conducted and its results? If so, don't you think that it suggests that the 'expert astrologers' who were involved were, perhaps, not able to perform as promised?

Maybe Jeanne Dixon is an exception. But someone not already committed to a belief in astrology might wonder whether your individual testimony is a sound basis for spending money on professional astrological services, given the results of the study I refer to.

_________________
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:02 am 
God

Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:17 am
Posts: 4343
Location: California
Chap wrote:
Maybe Jeanne Dixon is an exception. But someone not already committed to a belief in astrology might wonder whether your individual testimony is a sound basis for spending money on professional astrological services, given the results of the study I refer to.

Jeane Dixon was definitely no exception. Like all other astrologers, her popularity was based only on she and her true believers focusing on the tiny minority of predictions she got right, while ignoring the vast majority she got wrong.

Quote:
Respected mathematician John Allen Paulos coined the “Dixon effect,” in which self-proclaimed psychics make a few accurate predictions, but people ignore the hundreds of predictions that never happened.

Resources:

Offley, Ed. Scorpion Down. AllNavyBooks.com. (2008). Accessed on December 6, 2013.

Pace, Eric. Jeane Dixon, 79, Astrologer Claiming Psychic Power, Dies. (1997). New York Times. Accessed on December 6, 2013.

Tomlinson, Alex. Psychic in the White House. (2009). Fortean Times. Accessed December 6, 2013.

Paulos, John Allen. Innumeracy Mathematical Illiteracy and Its Consequences. (1988). Hill & Wang.

Carroll, Robert T. Jeane Dixon & the Jeane Dixon effect. The Skeptic’s Dictionary. Accessed on December 6, 2013.

Quote:
Her erroneous predictions included:

World War III would begin in 1958 over the Chinese islands, Quemoy and Matsu.
Walter Reuther, United Auto Workers President, would run for President in 1964.
There would be a cure for cancer in 1967.
The Soviets would send the first man to the moon. (The USA did in 1969.)
There would be a holocaust in the 1980s when Rome would be the world’s primary hub of culture, education and religion and a Middle Eastern child, who would be born on February 5, 1962, would unite all religions into one.
President George Bush would be re-elected in 1992. (Bill Clinton won.)
There would be peace on earth by the year 2000.

_________________
No precept or claim is more deservedly suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 85 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Doctor CamNC4Me, Gunnar, Quasimodo and 14 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group