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 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:48 pm 
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MeDotOrg wrote:
Personally I feel astrology is a lot more accurate than it used to be. Probably computers and telescopes, but my horoscope is always correct.

Do you mean astronomy?

Some Schmo wrote:
Horoscope sounds synonymous with peephole.

Do you mean peepstone?

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 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:42 am 
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MeDotOrg wrote:
...spiritual alternatives ...


... You are referring to astrology, no? I've asked this question before on this board: what on earth does this word 'spirituality' mean in such a context? Astrology, per se, has no specifically religious content at all. I don't want to turn this into a seminar, but if you read writing from the last period when astrology was still seen in Europe as being worth serious scientific attention, you will see that it was presenting itself as on equal terms with other sciences. See my earlier post.

MeDotOrg wrote:
Personally I feel astrology is a lot more accurate than it used to be. Probably computers and telescopes, but my horoscope is always correct. It just keeps getting better and more accurate, because it is based on solid science. ...


The improvements made in calculating the apparent positions of the heavenly bodies against the background of the stars seen from earth over the last three hundred years or so have been quite small from any practical point of view,* and certainly from the point of view of the kind of data used by astrologers.

Anyway ... it seems that your subjective sense that your horoscope is 'accurate' may not have a great deal of evidential value. See:

What do you mean, “test” astrology?

Quote:
Possibly the most detailed test of astrology using this type of method, was performed by Shawn Carlson. His paper, “A Double-blind Test of Astrology”, was published in the peer reviewed scientific journal Nature, in 1985. The interesting thing is that the San Francisco chapter of the National Council for Geocosmic Research recommended the 28 professional astrologers who took part, and (with Carlson), designed the tests. They also predicted, in advance, what they would consider to be a successful test.

Two tests were performed:

Test #1: Astrological charts were prepared for 83 subjects, based on natal data (date, time and place of birth), provided by the subjects. Each subject was given three charts: one chart based on their own natal data, and two charts derived from natal data of other people. Each subject was asked to identify the chart that most correctly described them. In only 28 of the 83 cases, the subject chose their own chart. This is the exact success rate expected for random chance. The astrologers predicted that the subjects would select their own chart more that 50% of the time.

Test #2: 116 subjects completed California Personality Index surveys and provided natal data (date, time and place of birth). One set of natal data and the results of three personality surveys (one of which was for the same person as the natal data) were given to an astrologer who was to interpret the natal data and determine which of the three CPI results belonged to the same subject as the natal data. In only 40 of the 116 cases, the astrologers chose the correct CPI. As with test #1, this is the exact success rate expected for random chance. The astrologers predicted that they would select the correct CPI profiles in more that 50 per cent of the trials.

Conclusion by Carlson:

"We are now in a position to argue a surprisingly strong case against natal astrology as practiced by reputable astrologers. Great pains were taken to insure that the experiment was unbiased and to make sure that astrology was given every reasonable chance to succeed. It failed. Despite the fact that we worked with some of the best astrologers in the country, recommended by the advising astrologers for their expertise in astrology and in their ability to use the CPI, despite the fact that every reasonable suggestion made by advising astrologers was worked into the experiment, despite the fact that the astrologers approved the design and predicted 50% as the "minimum" effect they would expect to see, astrology failed to perform at a level better than chance.

"I have not yet received a serious scientific challenge to the paper. The newsletter of the American Federation of Astrologers Network published a response in January (1986). I was very disappointed to see that it largely consists of personal attacks. Its few substantive criticisms are attributable to ignorance of the experiment, of the CPI, and of basic scientific methodology."


Edited to add:
* Of course the improvements that have taken place are very useful in ensuring that space probes can be put in orbit round Mars ... but we are talking astrology here

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Last edited by Chap on Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:36 am 
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"canpakes, they loved your presentation - encore?"
*applause as canpakes returns to stage
canpakes wrote:
Whatever your belief in magic peep stones has to say beyond that is just an added bonus.


viewtopic.php?p=1127061#p1127061

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 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:57 am 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:
Horoscope sounds synonymous with peephole.

Do you mean peepstone?

No. Why would I mean that?

You know what a scope is, right? And I imagine you're familiar with the word "whore."

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 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:48 am 
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subgenius wrote:
"canpakes, they loved your presentation - encore?"
*applause as canpakes returns to stage
canpakes wrote:
Whatever your belief in magic peep stones has to say beyond that is just an added bonus.


viewtopic.php?p=1127061#p1127061

*canpakes soothes subgenius’s chagrin at having been forced to look into a mirror, by rubbing magical olive oil on subgenius’s head. *


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 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:29 pm 
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canpakes wrote:
*canpakes soothes subgenius’s chagrin at having been forced to look into a mirror, by rubbing magical olive oil on subgenius’s head. *


Alas, you can't cure stupid. Even with magic oil. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:13 pm 
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canpakes wrote:
*canpakes soothes subgenius’s chagrin at having been forced to look into a mirror, by rubbing magical olive oil on subgenius’s head. *

*with a perplexed glance toward canpakes, subbie sheepishly asks* - "um, rubbing?"

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 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:14 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
Alas, you can't cure stupid. Even with magic oil. :lol:

lawd knows you tried, to the point of hair-loss, but blessed did you ever try....at least your are blissful.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:53 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
canpakes wrote:
*canpakes soothes subgenius’s chagrin at having been forced to look into a mirror, by rubbing magical olive oil on subgenius’s head. *

*with a perplexed glance toward canpakes, subbie sheepishly asks* - "um, rubbing?"

Stay calm. We’re only using the larger head for this.

Does the magic oil’s processing power not work if we don’t follow strict guidelines on application?


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 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:54 pm 
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Some Schmo wrote:
Dr. Shades wrote:
Do you mean peepstone?

No. Why would I mean that?

You know what a scope is, right? And I imagine you're familiar with the word "whore."

Ahh, I get it now. Sorry for my confusion.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:07 am 
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canpakes wrote:
Does the magic oil’s processing power not work if we don’t follow strict guidelines on application?

strict guidelines? have those and are those ever a concern for you?

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 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:41 am 
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subgenius wrote:
canpakes wrote:
Does the magic oil’s processing power not work if we don’t follow strict guidelines on application?

strict guidelines? have those and are those ever a concern for you?

Are you saying that there are no guidelines?

Can I just hit you with a shot of Pam cooking spray, instead?


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 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:06 am 
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I wonder if there is anybody around who is interested in discussing the topic of the thread, which was:

Quote:
Post subject: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?


I know it's bizarre, but somehow I don't find a thread devoted to subgenius all that interesting.

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I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Chap wrote:
I wonder if there is anybody around who is interested in discussing the topic of the thread, which was:

Quote:
Post subject: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?

Answer: No, astrology is not religion for those of us with no religion, because astrology isn't a religion.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:32 pm 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
astrology isn't a religion.


Yup. Mostly, its just a business, like it has been since it was invented. The thing is, that there was once a reasonable basis for thinking it was worth spending money on. Now, not so much.

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Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:54 pm 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
....because astrology isn't a religion.

don't agree because a basic definition of religion applies to how people apply astrology (as noted herein).

the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power...
these are all pretty ambiguous concepts, especially in the context of "faith"...and celestial influence/destiny is certainly superhuman (not the krypton super, of course).

But while many atheists may not subscribe to astrology, they certainly believe in something....and in Western civilization that "something" is surely steeped in Christian tradition.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:06 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
But while many atheists may not subscribe to astrology, they certainly believe in something....and in Western civilization that "something" is surely steeped in Christian tradition.

What if an atheist believes that no particular religion really has any grasp on what happens, if anything, after death?

How is that rooted in Christianity, and how does that belief equate to a religion?


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 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:21 am 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
Quote:
You know what a scope is, right? And I imagine you're familiar with the word "whore."
Ahh, I get it now. Sorry for my confusion.

No need to apologize. It's really on me. It was an awful joke.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:00 am 
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canpakes wrote:
subgenius wrote:
But while many atheists may not subscribe to astrology, they certainly believe in something....and in Western civilization that "something" is surely steeped in Christian tradition.

What if an atheist believes that no particular religion really has any grasp on what happens, if anything, after death?

How is that rooted in Christianity, and how does that belief equate to a religion?

"After death" is not a required belief for an atheist to still subscribe to Christian tradition(s). Christianity, to be simple, describes virtuous behavior and wrong behavior. Many ways that atheists describe these same behaviors are synonymous due to the inevitable influence of the culture/society/laws that the atheist exists within. So, while the atheist may want to assume their "values" are self-derived, chances are more likely that these values have simply been appropriated.
For example, how does the modern western civilized atheist justify "fill-in-the-blank"?....or say personal property rights? or outrage against "separating families"? or "murder is wrong"?
And I am not suggesting that this atheist can not justify these positions without chapter/verse, but I am suggesting that it because they maintain the Christian traditions that permeate their society/life/existence....they have no other well to draw from.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:42 am 
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subgenius wrote:
canpakes wrote:
... because they maintain the Christian traditions that permeate their society/life/existence....they have no other well to draw from.

Looks like you are putting the cart before the horse. It appears that what you could call “Christian tradition” can also be seen to exist outside of that religion, and has a history predating it, as well.

You can try to credit “Christianity” with being the source of social order and common sense, but you won’t find many folks in your corner, especially given that a break from strict religious thought helped push the Enlightenment along.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Astrology religion for those of us with no religion?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:04 am 
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subgenius wrote:
Dr. Shades wrote:
....because astrology isn't a religion.

don't agree because a basic definition of religion applies to how people apply astrology (as noted herein).

the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power...


OK. I leave to one side the futility of using a dictionary definition to represent the immense social and intellectual complexity and variety of actual existing religions.

Instead, I shall just point out that the use of astrology as a predictive tool does not, in itself involve any acts of worship.

_________________
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


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