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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:28 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
Nah. You're the one arguing that being a living human being is a necessary and sufficient condition of deserving moral and/or legal status associated with human rights.


Should a conscious human have rights? If yes, then are you certain that consciousness doesn't begin before birth?


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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:32 pm 
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But I just can't believe that Roe v. Wade is the center of Supreme Court debate. I highly doubt our country is ever going to have extreme anti-abortion laws. Why can't the debate be about Citizens United? How is abortion the most important issue in our country? It just feels like a big distraction.


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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:49 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
Or do you currently hold the position that no, human life does not deserve said respect because it has not been "shown to me" yet ?


Do you believe the fetus is a person? Who is more important the mother or the fetus? If both the mother and the fetus are equally important, then does that mean a woman shouldn't have an abortion even if her life is in danger?


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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:55 pm 
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DoubtingThomas wrote:
Do we all agree that it is wrong to let a conscious human die?

Waitaminute. The way you’ve worded that would include a 94-year old freely dying from natural causes. : )


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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:49 pm 
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DoubtingThomas wrote:
Do we all agree that it is wrong to let a conscious human die?
What qualifies as conscious to you, DT? Is it different than self-awareness? Is it just nerve activity caused by external stimuli that triggers a response? Is it a state of higher being attained only through meditation and enlightenment?

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:02 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
DoubtingThomas wrote:
Do we all agree that it is wrong to let a conscious human die?
What qualifies as conscious to you, DT? Is it different than self-awareness? Is it just nerve activity caused by external stimuli that triggers a response? Is it a state of higher being attained only through meditation and enlightenment?


I don't know because science hasn't given us an answer yet. All we know is that a fetus less than 24 weeks is probably not conscious. "Assuming that consciousness is mainly localized in the cortex, consciousness cannot emerge before 24 gestational weeks when the thalamocortical connections from the sense organs are established" Lagercrantz, Hugo. "The emergence of consciousness: science and ethics." Seminars in Fetal and Neonatal Medicine. Vol. 19. No. 5. WB Saunders, 2014.

It is clear that abortion before 24 weeks shouldn't be prohibited.


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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:10 pm 
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You're doing something similar to Subs DT in that you are just assuming your criteria for personhood is correct without giving any indication you've explored why.


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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:19 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
You're doing something similar to Subs DT in that you are just assuming your criteria for personhood is correct without giving any indication you've explored why.


I assume it is wrong to let a conscious human die. Is there a reason why we should let conscious humans die? Now I am not saying I believe the fetus is conscious because we really don't know.

Now abortion is an interesting debate, but it is not an important issue for me. I personally don't care much especially because science doesn't have many answers yet, but the nonsense on both sides is kind of annoying.


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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:26 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
You're doing something similar to Subs DT in that you are just assuming your criteria for personhood is correct without giving any indication you've explored why.


How do you define personhood? Why does personhood begin at birth?

Now I don't have a position. I am agnostic.


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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:21 pm 
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DoubtingThomas wrote:
EAllusion wrote:
You're doing something similar to Subs DT in that you are just assuming your criteria for personhood is correct without giving any indication you've explored why.


How do you define personhood? Why does personhood begin at birth?

Now I don't have a position. I am agnostic.


You just expressed a position. If you think it's Ok to kill fetuses under 24 weeks old because they aren't likely to be conscious, you clearly are arguing that consciousness is important to personhood. I think you are taking this to be self-evident, but, like subgenius's flailing assumptions about being human, this is something that requires justification.


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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:47 pm 
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DoubtingThomas wrote:
I don't know because science hasn't given us an answer yet. All we know is that a fetus less than 24 weeks is probably not conscious. "Assuming that consciousness is mainly localized in the cortex, consciousness cannot emerge before 24 gestational weeks when the thalamocortical connections from the sense organs are established" Lagercrantz, Hugo. "The emergence of consciousness: science and ethics." Seminars in Fetal and Neonatal Medicine. Vol. 19. No. 5. WB Saunders, 2014.

It is clear that abortion before 24 weeks shouldn't be prohibited.

You seem to have tried to answer the question of when is consciousness and saying we don't know. What is meant by consciousness, DT?

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:52 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
You're doing something similar to Subs DT in that you are just assuming your criteria for personhood is correct without giving any indication you've explored why.

as are you.

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:12 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
EAllusion wrote:
You're doing something similar to Subs DT in that you are just assuming your criteria for personhood is correct without giving any indication you've explored why.

as are you.
Where would that be? I have taken no stance on personhood in this thread. In previous discussions I have laid out in some detail how one would go about defending what I think *and* some other positions.

By all means, please quote the posts I wrote in this thread defending a criteria for personhood.


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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:04 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
By all means, please quote the posts I wrote in this thread defending a criteria for personhood.

Aw, you're quite the sophomaniac also, aren't ya?

"Regarding the personhood debate..."
viewtopic.php?p=1129078#p1129078

"I don't find arguments that try to locate personhood in being a biologically distinct, living human to be persuasive. "
viewtopic.php?p=1129181#p1129181

""Human" in the notion of human rights refers to personhood, not human in its bare biological sense."
viewtopic.php?p=1129181#p1129181

"personhood can be afforded to non-humans, already is to a partial extent..."
viewtopic.php?p=1129200#p1129200

there ya go!
These were just some of the more glaring examples of the "defending criteria" (granted you mostly rely on proclamation instead of reason, but for you they're one in the same)...and then there are some other posts where you seem to use "person" in the same context as personhood, but who knows? you're like a dog chasing its tail here...fun to watch but we know what happens when the dog catches it.

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:34 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
You just expressed a position. If you think it's Ok to kill fetuses under 24 weeks old because they aren't likely to be conscious, you clearly are arguing that consciousness is important to personhood.


Yes, but I don't have a position on abortion after 24 gestational weeks because we don't know when consciousness begins. We must be very careful as Sam Harris points out here https://youtu.be/ZJCN2W7DkAY?t=3m5s .

EAllusion wrote:
you clearly are arguing that consciousness is important to personhood


Yes, but it is just my assumption. I think most people would agree that it is wrong to kill conscious humans. Clearly a conscious human isn't just a body organ.

So what is important to personhood? Why is infanticide wrong? What is the difference between late term abortion and infanticide? Please answer my questions so I can better understand where you are coming from. But please don't bring up the Supreme Court because we know the most powerful court in the world is worth jack****.


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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:02 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
You seem to have tried to answer the question of when is consciousness and saying we don't know. What is meant by consciousness, DT?


Again science doesn't know what consciousness is. Consciousness is what makes us humans different from other things like computer viruses. Computer viruses may be alive, but are probably not conscious.

Spafford, Eugene H. "Computer viruses as artificial life." Artificial life 1.3 (1994): 249-265.
https://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/ab ... lCode=artl

But we don't know. Consciousness may simply be brain activity.


Last edited by DoubtingThomas on Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:04 pm 
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If you don't know what it is, how can you ask if there is agreement about who has it let alone if it is wrong to let someone or something die who may or may not have it?

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:43 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
If you don't know what it is, how can you ask if there is agreement about who has it let alone if it is wrong to let someone or something die who may or may not have it?


And we don't know what Gravity is in a fundamental sense, but it doesn't mean it is wise to jump off buildings.
https://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/St ... ion30.html

So science doesn't know what exactly is consciousness, but with brain scans doctors can tell the difference between conscious and unconscious brain processes https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... ain-scans/.

Now as I told EAllusion: what is important to personhood? Why is infanticide wrong? What is the difference between late term abortion and infanticide? Please answer my questions so I can better understand where you are coming from.


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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:08 am 
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subgenius wrote:
EAllusion wrote:
By all means, please quote the posts I wrote in this thread defending a criteria for personhood.

Aw, you're quite the sophomaniac also, aren't ya?

"Regarding the personhood debate..."
viewtopic.php?p=1129078#p1129078

"I don't find arguments that try to locate personhood in being a biologically distinct, living human to be persuasive. "
viewtopic.php?p=1129181#p1129181

""Human" in the notion of human rights refers to personhood, not human in its bare biological sense."
viewtopic.php?p=1129181#p1129181

"personhood can be afforded to non-humans, already is to a partial extent..."
viewtopic.php?p=1129200#p1129200

there ya go!
These were just some of the more glaring examples of the "defending criteria" (granted you mostly rely on proclamation instead of reason, but for you they're one in the same)...and then there are some other posts where you seem to use "person" in the same context as personhood, but who knows? you're like a dog chasing its tail here...fun to watch but we know what happens when the dog catches it.

Not a single one of those involves me defending a criteria for personhood. The first is me stating I find a position unpersuasive while setting up the need to defend it. The second is about interpreting what the word "men" means in a clause with me arguing it most closely matches what we mean by persons without taking any stance on what qualities matter for personhood.The third is merely articulating that it is possible for people to think non-humans are persons and noting there are some partial examples of this in law.

Reading is hard, I suppose.


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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:54 am 
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DoubtingThomas wrote:
honorentheos wrote:
If you don't know what it is, how can you ask if there is agreement about who has it let alone if it is wrong to let someone or something die who may or may not have it?


And we don't know what Gravity is in a fundamental sense, but it doesn't mean it is wise to jump off buildings.
https://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/St ... ion30.html

So science doesn't know what exactly is consciousness, but with brain scans doctors can tell the difference between conscious and unconscious brain processes https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... ain-scans/.

Now as I told EAllusion: what is important to personhood? Why is infanticide wrong? What is the difference between late term abortion and infanticide? Please answer my questions so I can better understand where you are coming from.

I understand you prefer the answers to such question be derived from what scientific investigation has to say about what Is, and that ethics or moral philosophy's many approaches with varied results telling us conflicting things about what Ought to Be is unsatisfying. So, with that in mind, I decided I'll take the approach of answering you as best as I can relying on what the scientific method tells us Is. The results aren't my personal view of what Ought to Be, but we work with what we are given I guess.

First, based on observations of nature plant life is able to sustain itself by converting solar radiation into a form of energy that can be used to support cell activity. Animal life, however, must rely on the taking of life to sustain life. This includes the taking of plant as well as other animal life. Animals taking life Is part of the natural order of things, then.

We also observe in nature that killing includes risk as other animals have instincts they've evolved to protect their own lives such that they defend themselves in ways that strongly discourage attempts to take their lives. This includes fighting and potentially killing their attackers in defense. We observe that part of the natural order of things is predators minimizing risks to themselves as they hunt which includes seeking out the weak, old and very young. Animals killing other animals who are weak, old or very young Is part of the natural order of things.

Observations of nature have given rise to the theory of evolution which is strongly supported by evidence. It tells us that the success of life on our planet has been the result of intense competition where the genetic traits passed down through generations intersect with external environmental conditions such that those best suited to their environments will also be more successful in passing on their genes to future generations. All life currently present on the planet is the result of these evolutionary processes. Because of this, we understand we Homo sapiens have also evolved as animals. And as noted above, this tells us that for Homo sapiens, taking life Is part of the natural order of things.

We also have evolved strong biological drives that are the result of these pressures which compel us to seek the success of our own genes followed by those of our immediate family members whose genes are most closely matched to our own. On the other hand, we have impulses that cause us to fear or even hate those least like us, and these impulses are the result of our past ancestors successfully navigating their environments to be able to pass on the genes we have inherited. This stragegy of protecting our own genes while seeking an advantage over other Homo sapiens so our genes are the ones that proliferate just Is part of the natural order of things as well.

Based on this, it seems your premise that infanticide is wrong is flawed. It seems the premise more closely aligned with what science has to tell us about what Is would be the killing of infants for consumption who are not closely related to a person Is logically a reasonable way to acquire the needed energy and other material required to sustain one's own cell activity. Thus, it seems science is telling us that killing and eating babies is not something we should call "wrong" but would be recognizable within the natural order of things.

Can't say I agree with that conclusion but again, it's just an observation of what Is and then infering some form of purely science-based code of conduct from it. Otherwise one would end up trying to determine what Ought to Be, and that isn't what science does.

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:55 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
By all means, please quote the posts I wrote in this thread defending a criteria for personhood.


EAllusion wrote:
subgenius wrote:


"Regarding the personhood debate..."
viewtopic.php?p=1129078#p1129078

"I don't find arguments that try to locate personhood in being a biologically distinct, living human to be persuasive. "
viewtopic.php?p=1129181#p1129181

""Human" in the notion of human rights refers to personhood, not human in its bare biological sense."
viewtopic.php?p=1129181#p1129181

"personhood can be afforded to non-humans, already is to a partial extent..."
viewtopic.php?p=1129200#p1129200

there ya go!
These were just some of the more glaring examples of the "defending criteria" (granted you mostly rely on proclamation instead of reason, but for you they're one in the same)...and then there are some other posts where you seem to use "person" in the same context as personhood, but who knows? you're like a dog chasing its tail here...fun to watch but we know what happens when the dog catches it.

Not a single one of those involves me defending a criteria for personhood. The first is me stating I find a position unpersuasive while setting up the need to defend it. The second is about interpreting what the word "men" means in a clause with me arguing it most closely matches what we mean by persons without taking any stance on what qualities matter for personhood.The third is merely articulating that it is possible for people to think non-humans are persons and noting there are some partial examples of this in law.

Reading is hard, I suppose.

Yes, not criteria when you wrote : "personhood can be afforded to non-humans" or "Human" in the notion of human rights refers to personhood" and so on...you must be amazed how anyone could read those as a standard of judgment or criticism; a rule or principle for evaluating or testing something.

like i said - sophomania has manifest upon you....reading your posts is quickly becoming like reading Sam the Eagle.
Image

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