subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
_subgenius
_Emeritus
Posts: 13326
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:50 pm

Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?

Post by _subgenius »

Chap wrote:
I think that subgenius is perhaps flattering himself ...

clearly your popeye-like forearms prove self-flattery as being your department.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?

Post by _Chap »

subgenius wrote:
Chap wrote:
I think that subgenius is perhaps flattering himself ...

clearly your popeye-like forearms prove self-flattery as being your department.


If only ...
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_subgenius
_Emeritus
Posts: 13326
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:50 pm

Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?

Post by _subgenius »

honorentheos wrote:
subgenius wrote:you yourself still have not defined personhood or how such a definition is inextricably linked to "life" inasmuch as one is afforded legal protection - or even moral protection.

How one defines what constitutes personhood affects everything that follows. That's why I asked you to provide what you believe constitutes personhood since it is fundamental to the discussion regarding whether or not a person is being consistent in how they seek to see rights applied. You claimed liberals aren't consistent, so the place to begin with that is sharing your definition of personhood that supports that claim.

As to whether or not it is inextricably linked to life is a very philosophical point between varying theories on what constitutes personhood. For example, would you agree that a self-learning and aware AI has personhood? Maybe you wouldn't but I would hope the example shows that it isn't synonymous with life. Unless, for you, the qualities of the two overlap perfectly. In which case, feel free to share what you think those qualities are.

Ok, before you move the goal posts yet again, let us revisit the OP - your OP.
Do you believe that personhood begins at conception?

What qualities do you believe qualify as necessary to have personhood?

Your are muddying the water in order to fit your presuppositions. You note my claim that liberals are inconsistent and you are trying to imply that my claim relates to personhood when clearly my claim specifies "life". You are insisting on using "life" and personhood interchangeably because your position erodes otherwise -
But why bore you with the tedious task of thinking clearly.

Perhaps we can just begin at the begining (again):
Your OP questions are ambiguous and leading, albeit clumsy.
But!
To answer your first question and your second question (which I have clearly already done as opposed to your avoidance of such reciprocity):

If i were to want to discuss personhood instead of "life" then I would note that there are unique and distinct manifestations of personhood - moral personhood, legal personhood and constitutional personhood.
Now, so that i may provide a clear answer - which of these were you asking about in the OP?
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_subgenius
_Emeritus
Posts: 13326
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:50 pm

Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?

Post by _subgenius »

Chap wrote:
subgenius wrote:clearly your popeye-like forearms prove self-flattery as being your department.


If only ...

Image
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_EAllusion
_Emeritus
Posts: 18519
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:39 pm

Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?

Post by _EAllusion »

subgenius wrote: Personhood both in philosophy and law refers to status a living being has that qualifies them for rights and protections associated with personhood.

circular much?[/quote]

No. Personhood refers to:

1) A set of rights, obligations, privileges, etc.

2) That are ascribed to entities with certain traits.

This isn't circular just because I said "associated with personhood" in order to bracket the debate over what those rights might look like.

But hey, I'm sure you know more than a whole sub-field of both law and ethical philosophy. Those pointy-headed nerds don't know nothin' about the real world like you. Though, I wouldn't then go on insisting that anything is a person or try to justify how something should be treated based on that fact since you don't believe in the concept. Goodbye opposition to abortion, for example.
_honorentheos
_Emeritus
Posts: 11104
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:17 am

Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?

Post by _honorentheos »

subgenius wrote:If i were to want to discuss personhood instead of "life" then I would note that there are unique and distinct manifestations of personhood - moral personhood, legal personhood and constitutional personhood.
Now, so that i may provide a clear answer - which of these were you asking about in the opening post?

Nice to see you're reading up.

Since the OP stems from your claim that liberals are inconsistent when it comes abortion and how immigrant children are treated, feel free to organize your views in whichever framework works best for your argument.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_subgenius
_Emeritus
Posts: 13326
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:50 pm

Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?

Post by _subgenius »

honorentheos wrote:
subgenius wrote:If i were to want to discuss personhood instead of "life" then I would note that there are unique and distinct manifestations of personhood - moral personhood, legal personhood and constitutional personhood.
Now, so that i may provide a clear answer - which of these were you asking about in the opening post?

Nice to see you're reading up.

Since the OP stems from your claim that liberals are inconsistent when it comes abortion and how immigrant children are treated, feel free to organize your views in whichever framework works best for your argument.

but i never imposed "personhood", i clearly formed a claim around "life". You alone framed your OP around "personhood", ergo the burden is still yours.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_EAllusion
_Emeritus
Posts: 18519
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:39 pm

Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?

Post by _EAllusion »

subgenius wrote:but i never imposed "personhood", i clearly formed a claim around "life". You alone framed your opening post around "personhood", ergo the burden is still yours.

You don't believe all life should be protected by law. If you did, you'd stop eating anf die. This is a choice I don't oppose for you, but in the meantime, we'll have to simply note your hypocrisy.

Also, if you believed this, which you don't, then you'd merely be asserting by implication that all life has personhood because that's how words work.
_honorentheos
_Emeritus
Posts: 11104
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:17 am

Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?

Post by _honorentheos »

subgenius wrote:
honorentheos wrote:Since the opening post stems from your claim that liberals are inconsistent when it comes abortion and how immigrant children are treated, feel free to organize your views in whichever framework works best for your argument.

but i never imposed "personhood", i clearly formed a claim around "life". You alone framed your opening post around "personhood", ergo the burden is still yours.

You can't honestly believe that life alone defines when rights should be granted. You need to expand on this. Otherwise, you are granting everything from the bacteria in your gut to a house fly with rights.

Personhood isn't something that you choose to impose. Its the term for what you want to claim a toddler and a developing human blastocyte share. So, make your case for what it is they share that grants them both the same access to rights.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_canpakes
_Emeritus
Posts: 8541
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:54 am

Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?

Post by _canpakes »

honorentheos wrote:You can't honestly believe that life alone defines when rights should be granted. You need to expand on this. Otherwise, you are granting everything from the bacteria in your gut to a house fly with rights.

Personhood isn't something that you choose to impose. Its the term for what you want to claim a toddler and a developing human blastocyte share. So, make your case for what it is they share that grants them both the same access to rights.

subs has chosen not to state a key assertion of his argument, that human life is ‘special’, except when it isn’t.
Post Reply