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 Post subject: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:37 am 
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subbie -

Rather than post in the tread on the Trump immigration policy or one of the Supreme Court threads, it seemed better to start a new one to ask you a question related to a post you made to Hawkeye, here:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=49289&start=89

subgenius wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:

For those of you keeping score at home, on this issue One-eye is all about the government heeding the counsel of religion, but on the issue of abortion the government should 180 on the value of children/family and heed the separation of church and state.
As usual the dismal policy of the Democratic party where liberals pick/choose when a child's life, and "family" is only as important as it is politically convenient.

#abortionkills

Philosophically speaking, much of the debate around when an unborn child should be recognized as having individual rights circles the issue of when an embryo -> fetus -> person. Essentially, when does personhood begin? Using life as a threshold doesn't work because the individual sperm and egg have characteristics of life. As one tries to examine the question of when human life begins, one is forced to focus on the human side of that equation more so than the life side.

With that in mind, some questions:

Do you believe that personhood begins at conception?

What qualities do you believe qualify as necessary to have personhood?

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:05 am 
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One might go further, and ask:

1. Given that fertilised ova not infrequently fail to implant, and as a result die and leave the womb in the form of a slightly heavy period, should all used female menstrual hygiene products be collected and given reverent and proper burial rather than being casually incinerated as they are now? After all, by the standards operated by some pro-lifers there may have been several human micro-corpses in there. Stop burning dead babies!!!!

2. Given that Intra-uterine contraceptive devices such as the coil and the loop (and so on) work in part by actually detaching fertilised ova which have begun to implant in the womb wall, is this not murder, and should not all such devices be banned?

I mean, let's be consistent here. If there is a 'right to life' immediately after conception it does not just apply to the life once it has become relatively photogenic, surely?

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:34 am 
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"personhood" isn't a right. So while I appreciate your attempt at arguing some other distracting philosophy, it seems rather irrelevant to the point you credit for inspiring this thread. "Personhood" is a rather arbitrary measure as it seems to infer that only a conscious human being is living...yet we know that such subjective and fleeting notions are dangerous. Why not be consistent, contrary to current Dem/Lib hair fires, and either believe in a right to life or not?

Now that being said, I'm not one to shy away from a frivolous argument like you are presenting here...so, perhaps you can offer some clarity that will enable me to respond properly to your opening post. First, I don't believe in personhood as you are inferring, so it would be best for, and encumbent upon, you define personhood. Otherwise, my response would be simple - what is "personhood"? I've never heard of such a thing.

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:39 am 
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subgenius wrote:
... what is "personhood"? I've never heard of such a thing.


I think that by that term honorentheos is simply referring to the state of being a living human being - something which some pro-lifers seem to think starts immediately after when an ovum has been fertilised. Since they think it is always wrong to bring an end to a human life, they think that termination of a pregnancy is always wrong.

When do you think human life begins?

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:42 am 
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Chap wrote:
One might go further, and ask:

1. Given that fertilised ova not infrequently fail to implant, and as a result die and leave the womb in the form of a slightly heavy period, should all used female menstrual hygiene products be collected and given reverent and proper burial rather than being casually incinerated as they are now? After all, by the standards operated by some pro-lifers there may have been several human micro-corpses in there. Stop burning dead babies!!!!

2. Given that Intra-uterine contraceptive devices such as the coil and the loop (and so on) work in part by actually detaching fertilised ova which have begun to implant in the womb wall, is this not murder, and should not all such devices be banned?

I mean, let's be consistent here. If there is a 'right to life' immediately after conception it does not just apply to the life once it has become relatively photogenic, surely?

your questions here seem to have been thoroughly answered by your local catholic church, perhaps that is a better forum within which to ask them. But you bring up interesting points...so, if it's not about a basic form of "life" for you, then it must be something else...something that transcends a basic biological circumstance common to all "living" things...is it just because its "human"?, nope, clearly not the case for your position...so it must be something else...something tangible? something absolute and determinable, correct? Is it an expression?...an expression of what then? You seem to be wanting to impose a value on an expression where as in the absence of such an expression the right to life is voided....ergo, either the life never made manifest or it can not manifest "again". So, let's "take it further" instead of taking it absurdly as you seem to prefer.

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:44 am 
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Chap wrote:
subgenius wrote:
... what is "personhood"? I've never heard of such a thing.


I think that by that term honorentheos is simply referring to the state of being a living human being - something which some pro-lifers seem to think starts immediately after when an ovum has been fertilised. Since they think it is always wrong to bring an end to a human life, they think that termination of a pregnancy is always wrong.

When do you think human life begins?

this thread seems to be about personhood and not about life, please do not invite me on to your derailment train.

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:58 am 
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subgenius wrote:
"personhood" isn't a right.

True. But it's used as a way of defining when rights are established.

Try this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxM9BZeRrUI

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Last edited by honorentheos on Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:41 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
Chap wrote:
One might go further, and ask:

1. Given that fertilised ova not infrequently fail to implant, and as a result die and leave the womb in the form of a slightly heavy period, should all used female menstrual hygiene products be collected and given reverent and proper burial rather than being casually incinerated as they are now? After all, by the standards operated by some pro-lifers there may have been several human micro-corpses in there. Stop burning dead babies!!!!

2. Given that Intra-uterine contraceptive devices such as the coil and the loop (and so on) work in part by actually detaching fertilised ova which have begun to implant in the womb wall, is this not murder, and should not all such devices be banned?

I mean, let's be consistent here. If there is a 'right to life' immediately after conception it does not just apply to the life once it has become relatively photogenic, surely?

your questions here seem to have been thoroughly answered by your local catholic church, perhaps that is a better forum within which to ask them. But you bring up interesting points...so, if it's not about a basic form of "life" for you, then it must be something else...something that transcends a basic biological circumstance common to all "living" things...is it just because its "human"?, nope, clearly not the case for your position...so it must be something else...something tangible? something absolute and determinable, correct? Is it an expression?...an expression of what then? You seem to be wanting to impose a value on an expression where as in the absence of such an expression the right to life is voided....ergo, either the life never made manifest or it can not manifest "again".
So, let's "take it further" instead of taking it absurdly as you seem to prefer.

Help. I have read the response by subgenius a couple of times, and I can't locate a clear proposition or question.

Can someone help me to understand what he is saying?

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:51 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Help. I have read the response by subgenius a couple of times, and it just seems to be a disconnected word salad expressing no clear proposition or question.

Can someone help me to understand what he is saying?

Chap. Dude. It's a subby post. You even identified its distinctive trait. :cool:

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:14 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
subgenius wrote:
"personhood" isn't a right.

True. But it's used as a way of defining when rights are established.

So a non-citizen is not entitled to a right to life by our Constitution? our laws? (eg the 14th does not apply).

honorentheos wrote:
You are wanting to talk about a state before birth.

No, you are - you started this thread (see also opening post).

honorentheos wrote:
So, when does that state fit the definition for being a person?

don't care unless you can reasonably conclude that "person" is indistinguishable from "life".

honorentheos wrote:

Nope, the burden is yours to post your argument here, not for me to follow some link and try to pick out some point or idea that may or may not be conveyed in a video.
If you believe that personhood is to be defined in such a manner that supports whatever end-around you're trying with the opening post then do the work and type it. Otherwise be dismissed.

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:19 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Help. I have read the response by subgenius a couple of times, and I can't locate a clear proposition or question.

then move along, because there is no reason for your post here - other than your own masturbatory urges.

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:11 pm 
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subbie -

There are multiple points of conflict in any discussion where the rights involved in the abortion debate are concerned. In that other thread you claimed that liberals were being inconsistent by being concerned with the treatment of children that are being forcibly separated from their parents at our borders due to the policy of the Trump admin but not concerned about a fetus coming to term to be born a human infant.

So you ask if it is reasonable to ask if life is different from personhood. If one defined human life as having human DNA, that would include many objects spanning cells to corpses. If it has to do with consciousness, it would exclude brain dead persons and, well, zygotes. If it has to do with the potential to become human life, so do the male and female gametes or sperm and eggs.

These conflicting concerns about rights all have to do with how one defines personhood because one can't just say it's about life. It's clearly about life with certain other qualities. If you are convinced that the moment a male human sperm fertilizes a female human egg that this is what makes something a human being it would be interesting to see how you make this distinction in your own mind. Is it the DNA? The potential for what it may become? Or what? What makes it a human being with rights? And beyond that, rights that trump the rights of others?

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:48 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
subbie -

There are multiple points of conflict in any discussion where the rights involved in the abortion debate are concerned. In that other thread you claimed that liberals were being inconsistent by being concerned with the treatment of children that are being forcibly separated from their parents at our borders due to the policy of the Trump admin but not concerned about a fetus coming to term to be born a human infant.

So you ask if it is reasonable to ask if life is different from personhood. If one defined human life as having human DNA, that would include many objects spanning cells to corpses. If it has to do with consciousness, it would exclude brain dead persons and, well, zygotes. If it has to do with the potential to become human life, so do the male and female gametes or sperm and eggs.

These conflicting concerns about rights all have to do with how one defines personhood because one can't just say it's about life. It's clearly about life with certain other qualities. If you are convinced that the moment a male human sperm fertilizes a female human egg that this is what makes something a human being it would be interesting to see how you make this distinction in your own mind. Is it the DNA? The potential for what it may become? Or what? What makes it a human being with rights? And beyond that, rights that trump the rights of others?

This is all well and good, and even interesting on some points.....b...u..t...you yourself still have not defined personhood or how such a definition is inextricably linked to "life" inasmuch as one is afforded legal protection - or even moral protection.

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:56 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
"personhood" isn't a right.

Personhood both in philosophy and law refers to status a living being has that qualifies them for rights and protections associated with personhood.


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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:15 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
subgenius wrote:
"personhood" isn't a right.

Personhood both in philosophy and law refers to status a living being has that qualifies them for rights and protections associated with personhood.

circular much?

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:43 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Help. I have read the response by subgenius a couple of times, and I can't locate a clear proposition or question.

Can someone help me to understand what he is saying?


Subbie is one of the biggest trolls I have seen online. He avoids discussion and uses a lot of words without making a cogent point. You will notice he still has not even given his definition of person-hood.

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:14 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
you yourself still have not defined personhood or how such a definition is inextricably linked to "life" inasmuch as one is afforded legal protection - or even moral protection.

How one defines what constitutes personhood affects everything that follows. That's why I asked you to provide what you believe constitutes personhood since it is fundamental to the discussion regarding whether or not a person is being consistent in how they seek to see rights applied. You claimed liberals aren't consistent, so the place to begin with that is sharing your definition of personhood that supports that claim.

As to whether or not it is inextricably linked to life is a very philosophical point between varying theories on what constitutes personhood. For example, would you agree that a self-learning and aware AI has personhood? Maybe you wouldn't but I would hope the example shows that it isn't synonymous with life. Unless, for you, the qualities of the two overlap perfectly. In which case, feel free to share what you think those qualities are.

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:40 am 
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subgenius wrote:
Chap wrote:
Help. I have read the response by subgenius a couple of times, and I can't locate a clear proposition or question.

then move along, because there is no reason for your post here - other than your own masturbatory urges.


I think that subgenius is perhaps flattering himself ...

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:59 am 
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I'm not sure personhood ever began for subbie. I suspect he's still a puppet waiting to be made into a real boy. It's just taking a very long time because this puppet can't seem to stop lying, and he clearly likes having his strings pulled.

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:19 am 
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Some Schmo wrote:
I'm not sure personhood ever began for subbie. I suspect he's still a puppet waiting to be made into a real boy. It's just taking a very long time because this puppet can't seem to stop lying, and he clearly likes having his strings pulled.

You realize that the puppet is the hero in that story...so, thanks ya wannabe Mangiafuoco!

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 Post subject: Re: subbie - When Does Personhood Begin?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:20 am 
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Chap wrote:

I think that subgenius is perhaps flattering himself ...

clearly your popeye-like forearms prove self-flattery as being your department.

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